Trying some annealing: Too much or too little?

I'm trying to find a consistent method for annealing cases. I'm finding it quite difficult right now trying the water pan and drill method. My engineering senses are telling me that any non-automated annealing method is horrific for neck tension.
Just trying to find a measurable way to diagnose annealing condition is shady at best. What would you guys describe the annealing job of this case? Too little, too much? Too far up the case? Too far down? My guess is that the annealed portion should go as far as the bullet but I'm probably more concerned about knowing proper color range (if that even means anything)...

I'm familiar with the article from 6mmBR but that assumes that I have an automated annealer.

Attachment 194134

shoe

Tempilac

It all depends on how fancy you want to get, but you can build one for less than $200.00. Look up jmorris annealling machine on this site.

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Originally Posted by ikarus1

Tempilac

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Ditto! Based on my experience it is not possible to tell what temp was reached by the discoloration of the brass.

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Or this one at $98 and you buy additional cartridge holder for a few bucks. https://www.cartridgeanneal.com/

You need tempilac that will turn color when the correct temperature is reached. Placed dab inside the mouth of the case. Then time it to color change, do the rest for the time it takes the tempilac to color change on the first one. Not really all that different than having a rhythm of timing for your casting once you start getting good bullets to drop.

The tool above just makes that easier and faster. Have seen one guy that uses a shallow layer cake pan of water on a lazy susan type spinner. Case base in water so it can't overheat, turn the lazy susan once, knock case into water, next case. I think for some stuff like 8mm or 303 British or other bolt guns high productivity is not essential. For .223 or 7.62 Russian? Yeah that one at a time thing will probably be a little slow.

You can build one with these or other plans https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Aj7xa0eX0/edit
or for $275 there is this one ready made http://www.annealeez.com/

I came across the method below, in the answer section of this webpage: http://www.endtimesreport.com/410rel...html#QUESTIONS

while doing some researching, & since I am about to be annealing some cases, (about 200-300), I am going to try this method. Anyway, I thought I would post it here since it seems pretty simple & easy to do. Perhaps you would like to try it. Even if you are looking for another method that "indicates" the process for ya. G'luck regardless of your method. I will be following here to see what others have to say also.
:)
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QUESTIONS FROM READERS OF THIS PAGE

QUESTION: DEANE. I HAVE QUESTION ABOUT THE ANNEALING PROCESS. PRECISELY HOW DO YOU ACCOMPLISH THAT? ARE YOU SIMPLY IMMERSING THE DE-CAPPED .303 CASES IN MOLTEN LEAD AND THEN QUENCHING THEM WITH COLD WATER? HOW MUCH OF THE CASE DO YOU HEAT?
I CAN RECALL YEARS AGO IN MONTANA, WE USED TO STAND OUR CASES IN A CAKE PAN OF WATER AND HEAT THE CASE MOUTHS ONE AT A TIME WITH A PROPANE TORCH. WHEN THEY WERE HOT, WE TIPPED THEM OVER. IS THIS BASICALLY WHAT YOU'RE UP TO?

ANSWER: I anneal all my brass in hot lead. Wheelweight alloy (89 lead, 1 tin, 10 antimony) melts at 619 F. The reason for using lead for annealing is to keep the temperature low enough for proper annealing AND have uniform annealing, and that is simply not possible using the torch method. With the propane torch, you stand the cases upright in a pan of water, heat the shoulder and neck, and when it glows the case is tipped over into the water. The case is heated on one side more than the other, and in falling over into the water, one side is quenched before the other side.
I use primed cases, using fired primers, as that forms an airlock that keeps lead from entering the case. Then I dip the case mouth (and about a half inch below the shoulder) down into the molten lead for about a count of two, pull it up out of the lead, tap on the side of the case to remove any bits of lead (if the lead is really sticking, the case isn't annealed!), then drop it mouth down (straight) into a 3 pound coffee can mostly full of ice water. I have another can with ice cubes, and every 10 rounds or so I add a few ice cubes to keep the water cool. I don't use gloves, as if the case head I'm holding got hot enough to require gloves, I would be annealing the case head and primer pocket too -- bad news.
Usually I don't tell people about this method because they may not be mentally organized. Water and molten lead do not mix, and I worry about the liability angle I don t assume any liabilitybecause people can t follow directions properly. Being left handed, I have the cases on the right side, the lead in the middle, and the ice water on the left. The cases go only one direction -- to the left -- and I use only one hand. Because it only takes a few seconds per case, I can anneal hundreds of cases in an hour with this method.
Over three decades ago I experimented with various methods of annealing brass, including the torch method. The reason was that I was that I was making brass as a commercial reloader specializing in obsolete and wildcat cartridges. I needed the cases to last, and fireforming had to be easy and reliable. I made a lot of 7 mm Weatherby out of anything belted, from 375 H & H on down to 300 Win Mag, and that entailed actually reducing the body diameter/taper to that of the 300 H & H case, trimming to 2.555", inside neck reaming, then fireforming with 15 grains of Herco and a case of Cream of Wheat. Same thing with 7 mm Ackley Improved and the various Gibbs cartridges made from 30-06 brass (with 10 or 12 grains of Herco depending upon case volume) -- fireforming was a must.
In my trails, annealing in lead gave the best results. But I know of one dude who dropped an ice cube into the lead pot and got himself (and everything close) covered with a thin film of hot lead, so I hesitate to tell just anyone about this method.
ANNEAL AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Annealing is a process of time at a certain temperature. If you wanted to anneal the whole case 2 hours at 300* would achieve the same as the few seconds at 700 we do. But the few seconds makes it easier to not anneal the base. The lead pot method works well and is consistant. Monitor lead temps as the cold brass going in will slightly lower temps. I use a pot with silica sand in it. this is the sand for making glass very fine and heats well. I have a rack made with holes around the outside and insert cases into it pulling one and inserting another going around. this gives about 10-15 seconds in the 750* sand. One way to check annealed brass is expand a couple cases and measure Inside dia . Then expand a couple after annealing and measure Inside dia should be less spring back

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Originally Posted by RogerDat

You can build one with these or other plans https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Aj7xa0eX0/edit

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Does anyone have a picture of this one assembled? The document gives no indication of how it is assembled or how it works.

I have built one of these and it works very well, got the parts on amazon here is the link to see what it looks like http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...list-included!

The document posted in thread #8 will give you the needed info look on the left side of doc it has links to plans

This is mine....love it. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2e8ddd55c2.jpg

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Those instructions/plans are for a "Black Betty" rotating pan design. It's a very straightforward design that works well.

As far as I know, the original idea of the rotating pan came from a Swedish guy "Mr Longrange"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvI40Rl8Z3k

This basic concept was developed by an Aussie "Skippy" who made it into a practical machine, nicknamed "Black Betty"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-C-i0Kr2jU&t=52s

Skippy the Oz very generously made all his work open source, publishing build list and plans.

The original Black Betty was further improved by the use of a proximity detector to detect a waiting case. I believe this was the idea of a chap who goes by the handle "Mozella" since then it's been tweaked and tuned and there are some really excellent builds out there.

HERE

easiest way without an annealeez
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi3OoeYUPec

It should be noted that the black betty hopper does handle rimmed cartridges well. I built mine for doing 45-70 cases then realized you can only put about 10 in the hopper.

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My engineering senses are telling me that any non-automated annealing method is horrific for neck tension.

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You can ruin them with an automated device too, they just give you consistent results. The first one will be the same as the last and all others in between.

Using propane, watch the flame color, if it turns orange you have gone too far. This is an example of too much.
Video
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...h_annealer.mp4

This is is what you want, flame remains blue throughout operation, case has even color all around and head is cool enough to hold right out of the flame.
Video
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o..._nottoohot.mp4

So how do you get there? Start the machine too fast and slow down until the first hint of color change, then speed it back up a bit. Run what's in the basket back through and they are all the same. The stopping before something happens is the hard part when done by hand.

That said there are lots of ways to anneal, if you threw them all in a fire they would be annealed, just too much.

There are lots that have built versions of the above machine. It's a sticky in this forum
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...annealer-today

Main advantage of the design is that it can anneal anything from 17 hornet to 50 BMG without having to change any parts. Torches are infinitely adjustable for height and spacing and the case carrier is self centering.

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Originally Posted by Reddirt62

Ditto! Based on my experience it is not possible to tell what temp was reached by the discoloration of the brass.

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True. Depend on brass manufacturer and amount of cleanliness, the brass may or may not change color at the annealing temperature