Pneumatic 5C Collet Chuck on TL1 lathe

For a variety of reasons I wanted a collet chuck for my CNC lathe. I contacted my Haas dealer and got a recommendation for a pneumatic 5C collet closer from a company called Royal Products. They gave me the name of the closest dealer, and I ordered the unit. The dealer said that Royal had a two week lead time. I paid for the unit on a Thursday afternoon and the next Tuesday I had two packages on the front porch. Apparently the Haas TL1 is popular enough that it had its own item listing, so they must have had a finished unit in stock. (Royal makes collet closers for almost any lathe, but a lot of times there are key parts that need to be modified to make a custom fit.)

One box had the collet closer assembly, consisting of the piston and drawtube (which installs from the outboard side of the spindle) and the spindle nosepiece (which installs from the inboard side of the spindle). There was also a collet wrench, to be used when changing collets.

The other box was a hand valve air kit, which included a hand valve (decided on that instead of the foot valve as I was afraid prosthesis might make it tough to operate) and a luber/regulator pressure gauge assembly.

You can see the nosepiece in the first photo. Installing it requires removing six cap screws that hold the chuck to an adapter plate, and then the screws that hold the adapter plate to the spindle nose. The nosepiece bolts directly to the spindle nose.

The piston snd drawtube assembly goes in from the outboard side, There are four cap screws that hold the assembly to the outboard end of the spindle. The clearance was tight enough that we needed to cut off the short end of an Allen wrench to get it to fit. (This will definitely be the slowest step in any changeover) You can see from the last photograph that an anti-rotation mechanism is necessary to keep the piston assembly from rotating. The factory cure was a 3/8 threaded rod with several nuts and washers and a rubber hose to fit over the rod for padding. Installation would require drilling a hole in the vented end panel, then removing the panel and installing the threaded rod with nuts on either side, then putting the panel back in place. The rod would be sticking out all the time, even when not using the air chuck. We used a piece of aluminum channel with one leg milled off and the other leg narrowed to fit into ring. An aluminum spacer block shims it out to the right point, and two 1/4-20 screw holes that were already in the machine's casting were used to secure it. The air chick moves about 1/4"-3/8" axially, so the bracket allows that motion but prevents rotation.

The air valve was mounted on a piece of aluminum angle which at this point is C-clamped to the machine bed. We plan to refine this, but it works for now. When we take off the piston and drawtube assembly we will also take off the hand valve with it as a unit. The regulator is connected directly to a pressure line, with the outflow connected to the air valve with a quick diconnect fitting. The regulator is mounted inside the rear machine guard sheet metal, so I can just drop the hose straight down after it is disconnected and it is out of the way.

This will allow us to machine smaller diameter material (limited to 1/2" with the 3 jaw), and speed up part changes, while reducing the effort required. It is also a little safer, since there is nothing on the outboard end of the spindle that rotates, so you can't snag loose clothing. It is also really quiet and uses just a tiny amount of air for each clamp/unclamp cycle.

So far I'm pleased.

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Interesting. Never had a complaint or failure on any Royal product. I've got a standard Royal collet closer on my 17 x 40 WEBB engine lathe. Glad to see that you're forging ahead. Looking forward to hearing how your HAAS TL-1 does.

smokeywolf

Keith: Two things affect a part being held in a collet. Clamping pressure and diameter of the part. On a regular collet closer the handle goes over center and locks the thing closed so this can be duplicated every time. With the type you have it relies on air pressure to hold the collet closed.

As far a s the diameter of the parts goes,,, With a 5C collet .001 in diameter variation yields .003 in length variation. This is why you always Face the part after it is chucked and cut it off while still being chucked . It's the only way you can control length if it is critical.

With your Sizing Die blanks you might look at buying your stock "Centerless Ground to size."

A company called "Longbar Grinding" in LA does this. They are located right outside the back door of Frye Steel (Who I absolutely hate!) They buy stock from Frye, grind it to size and ship it to you. You by thru them, not Frye. The service adds about 10% to the material cost. I'm sure there is someone in your neck of the woods that does the same service.

I have used this outfit for years as anytime I am doing a part that has a stupid OD it is more cost effective to start with the right size material than it is to turn the OD which no matter how good the machine, will vary. If you have to chuck the part multiple times you don't have to cope with the 5C collets length variations with different OD's.

Just a thought,,,

Good to hear you are feeling better.

Randy

Randy -

I appreciate the real-life advice coming from your experience. I knew about the limitations of 5C collets when I decided to buy this setup. It's all a matter of thinking through the job and processing things the right way as you point out.

I've used turned and ground stock before, the most recent was some 4140 prehardened round stock. The dies I make for Lyman/RCBS, Saeco, and Star machines all have a flange of some type on one end and then the body is cut to a smaller size. I don't think the extra money for turned and ground stock would gain me much since the body has to be turned down anyway. I am already using a method of holding my dies while backfacing that is diameter independent.

I do use good quality cold rolled steel, mostly 1144, for a lot of items. It seems to be pretty close to nominal size and doesn't seem to vary much from end to end and piece to piece. I don't usually run a batch of parts that takes more than 1 or 2 bars to complete.

Keith. As a retired pipefitter/plumber/steamfitter of 35 + years experience I must make the following suggestion concerning the pressure air line suppling the directional valve. If there is not already a moisture/dirt trapping air filter in the air line to catch particles of foreign material (thread sealant, metal particles, rust, and of course moisture from the compressed air cooling and moisture dropping out) I would invest in a good quality Norgren or other brand name of good quality. I`ve seen nicely installed valves and air operated componets scored up by the lack of a simple filter trap. A lubrication adding componet is good to have, but a filter trapping device is a must.Robert

Keith: Nothing wrong with 5C collets, we all use them. You just have to know where the gotchas are.

I live within 20 miles of the Haas Factory in Oxnard CA. I have watched him grow that company from a second place to Fadal company to the largest manufacturer of Machine tools in the world. Pretty much because he is a Red Head and the Fadal Bros told him his machines would never amount to anything. Nothing works harder than a pissed off Redhead.

One thing I am a big proponent of is using separate tools to rough cut and finish cut. That way the wear on the finish tool remains low, and as a result you don't have to chase offsets as much. (longer runs with less intervention)

Your machine should be rigid enough and it is still new so it should be tight, so once you've established tool paths that make good parts you shouldn't have to do anything but load the collet and push the Green button. 1144 isn't that hard on tools, and I have made numerous parts from it 12L14 and 416SS that after the initial buck in to nominal dias the machine just made thousands of parts with no intervention from me.

In fact I had one job that I bar fed with 6' bars that made parts for 45 minutes un monitored then shut down the machine and waited for me to come back. I literally would load a fresh bar and go to lunch or go run errands or do something else.

Something satisfying about making money while eating lunch.:mrgreen:

IN fact the only thing that affected that machine was the heat of the day during the summer months warming the coolant which in turn caused the Aluminum baseplates of the Slide Assembly to move around a little. The next morning we'd start back up with the previous mornings offsets back in place. We got to where we knew what time we'd have to bump the offsets.

BPM has made lots of parts. In fact I also made the lathe I made the parts on.


Randy

Randy, that is a neat project, post more about your lathe sometime.

A good friend of mine runs a high volume batch production facility. He won't buy Haas machines, claims they are too light and not rigid enough for his needs. He might be right, but he's also paying four to five times as much for the same nominal capacity, and taking up a lot more floor space and using three phase power. For my purposes, Haas machines are as close to perfect as they could be. Small footprints, and the smaller machines (TL1 lathes and TM1 mills) can run on 240VAC single phase power. I have plenty of power, just not three phase. Years ago I installed a rotophase unit that has plenty of capacity to run my manual lathe and mill at the same time, but not enough to run a third high powered motor. This way I can run all my machines simultaneously if necessary. There were many days when I was working alone that I used both the manual and CNC lathe at the same time. It is not too unlikely that with an apprentice we could be running both CNC machines and the manual lathe or mill at the same time.

I also love the fact that the Haas control panel is nicely laid out and is virtually the same across their product line. If you can operate one machine, you can operate them all quite easily.

A Haas TL1 or TM1 is about the cost of a good upscale pickup truck ($32K-36K). Tell me what a used five year old truck is worth, and what a five year old CNC lathe with low hours that has been well taken care of is worth.

Hardcast -

Thanks for the good advice. I have a luber/filter/regulator unit in the main line coming from the air tank, and there is a luber/regulator unit in the line right at the lathe. (It wasn't shown in the photos, it is right behind the headstock mounted to the sheet metal guard.) I am getting some leaks in the l/f/r at the tank. it was a cheap unit I got at a surplus tool sale. I think I want to replace it, can you suggest a good brand name or model number or anything else you might think of? Any recommendations about a good oil to use in drip luber?

Keith. I have been away from building air equipment add ons for manfacturing applications since 2003. I am sure things have changed from what I knew and what is now state of the art. As far as changing the air station, luber/filter/regulator, I usually had zero problems with the Norgren line of air station equipment. Before I retired there was a unit that joined the filter with the regulator as a single piece. I was never comfortable with the joining of these seperate units as one. About every tool sales will stock air treatment products and there are quite afew names in the market today I`m sure. With Norgren you won`t go astray. Remember you will literally get what you are paying for with these units. Air lubrication oil is of a different viscosity than standard lubrication oils, these can be used but the results will not be as if a specific type oil was in place. Again with these lubes you will be getting what you are paying for. Also again these lubricants can be purchased at any tool supplier. Glad to see you back!Robert

Keith: I packaged the Omniturn CNC Lathe. My original concept used a Hardinge Speed Lathe mounted in a cabinet that held the machine at 75 degrees. Thus all chips fell of into the chip box.

This was the basis for Omniturn's GT 75 which I believe they still manufacture. I made 41 of these machines before they decided to redesign it just enough to get around any patents I would put in place.

This ultimately cost me about $5 million in lost revenue. Not to mention my extreme disappointment in the individual who ran the place and eventually screwed every single outfit that contributed to the manufacture of the machine.

Prior to my involvement, they had a CNC Retrofit Slide attachment that fit either Hardinge Chuckers or DSM59's.

I took their existing product which I had purchased form them and packaged it into a stand alone machine which got them away from the Retrofit business and into the complete machine tool business. They sold in excess of 5000 of these machines in the first two or three years and had they kept their word I would have made @$1100 each building the cabinets.

Instead they chose to push me out and get a Sheet Metal shop in Spokane WA to manufacture their slightly modified version of my concept.

This was done to every single outfit that did work for them and every single person that ever worked for them right down to the kid they had sweeping the floor.

This outfit is one of the most hated outfits in the Machine Tool Business.

The machine however is not a bad piece of equipment and I will probably start making Brass Boolits with mine soon.

My intention when designing the prototype was to build a CNC Brown and Sharpe 00 Screw machine. I was successful on that note:

Randy

Hardcast416taylor - replaced the frl in the main air line at the tank with a small one piece Aro unit I got from Graingers. Only about 1/4 the total size of the old unit, it went together with no leaks. I will pick up some oil for it next week.

Randy - That is some story. I did ask for you to post something about your machine but wow.