My Arisaka is fixed!

Some of you may recall, I found out the hard way my type 99 was rechambered to a wildcat. Char-Gar correctly ID'd it as a 30-06 ICL Caribou. Some time searching the net and scrounging for the cash, I found a nice barrel at Schludershots.com down in Round Rock Texas. A great company to do business with by the way. It came, and a while later I got it up to the D&D Gunsmiths in Troy Michigan, who have done some excellant work for me in the past. It's finished, and I'm going to pick it up after Labor day.

It got me thinking about a load for it. I don't have any data for it other than the Trail Boss formula I was using, and the Harris 2400 rule. I'd like to use SR-4759 with a Lyman 314299. If anyone has info I'd appreciate it. Also, I'd like any input about using 8MM Mauser data. These cartridges are almost twins, and I've got lots of load data for the 8mm.

Lyman4 has data for .303 Brit using 314299 and SR4759. Case length, capacity and application between 7.7x58, .303 Brit and 8x57 Mauser are so close that using starting data between them should not present any problem, IMO. If it was me I'd do it that way.

There is also .30-40 Krag cast load data in Lyman4 that could be extrapolated. They use 311284 which is close enough for gov't work.

I load 7.7x58, too. I'd go with 314299 and 15.5 grs 2400 which is the starting load for .303 Brit. Given the type of rifling of the Arisaka I'd keep things on the lower side.

My Type 99 is Toyo Kogyo (Mazda) Series 33 with non chrome bore or bolt face but has matching # bolt. Looks un-issued. With Norma factory J-type it is scary accurate but has such a large oversize chamber that brass is nearly impossible to resize in a Rockchucker press. Using cast bullet loads the cases can be sized fine.

Dutch

Dutch, I have some 2400, and I know it's used a lot in these milsurp situations. Still, I just can't get over the idea of all that unfilled case capacity without filler. I guess I'll just have to pull the trigger on one to be convinced it's OK.
I had not noticed the 303's similarity, that helps a lot, thanks.

Dutch, you got a new barrel. You didn't tell us what cartridge you had it chambered for!

I am taking it you found an original Jap barrel and the rifle will be back "as issued"...right? If so, bear in mind they have Medford style rifling which can be a problem child with cast bullets.

Actually the Jap Type 99s have Metford style rifling. I've tried quite a few of them. The Type 99s vary greatly in barrel groove dimensions. A good 20 years ago I had three that the barrel groove dimensions stepped up in 0.314", 0.315" and 0.316", all rifles from the same arsenal. My load at the time was a very healthy charge of slow burning surplus rifle powder with buffer and a Lyman 314299. The tight bored rifle shot a 1/2" 100 yd 3 shot group. The 0.315" barrel shot about 1.25" and the 0.316" shot 2" under the same conditions. You fit a boolit to them correctly and they shoot every bit as well as anything else out there.

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Originally Posted by Wayne Smith

Dutch, you got a new barrel. You didn't tell us what cartridge you had it chambered for!

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Oops...my bad. It's not new, just new to me. It's a salvaged 7.7 type 99 with a chrome bore in vgc. Actually in much better condition externally as well. Got it here> http://www.schludershots.com/

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Originally Posted by Char-Gar

I am taking it you found an original Jap barrel and the rifle will be back "as issued"...right? If so, bear in mind they have Medford style rifling which can be a problem child with cast bullets.

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I'm a purist when it comes to milsurps, and I would have done nothing if I could not get the right part. I do confess to making a carbine out of a 91/30 though. But it was a poor example to start with.

Yep, I'm aware of the Metford rifling, taming an old war horse is part of the 'fun'.:smile:

treat it like a marlin bbl.
the 314299 does pretty well the nei loverign design i have does much better sized big [313 in mine] and using a 4/6/90 alloy the 7.7 does right well.
with a trigger pull in the 15lb range it will hold under 2" at 100 no problem.
i just use 308-30/06 data that's the same.
and generally use 17-18 grs of 2400 since i use that in everything else.

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Originally Posted by wallenba

Dutch, I have some 2400, and I know it's used a lot in these milsurp situations. Still, I just can't get over the idea of all that unfilled case capacity without filler. I guess I'll just have to pull the trigger on one to be convinced it's OK.
I had not noticed the 303's similarity, that helps a lot, thanks.

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pru·dent
   [prood-nt]
adjective
1. wise or judicious in practical affairs; sagacious; discreet or circumspect; sober.
2. careful in providing for the future; provident: a prudent decision.

I didn't know what "prudent" meant until I read Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay on prudence: http://www.emersoncentral.com/prudence.htm

Not all, nor most, military cartridge loadings occupy 100% load density. There is airspace in most all of them.

I watched one day as a friend in Ohio fired a Mauser with a cast bullet load using 4 grs Unique. No filler, no nothing just 4 grs. The predictable occurred. The bullet didn't make it to the end of the bore. That was it. Six grains made it out, eight grains made it out and further. Ten grains is much better for a woman/child rifle load in most military .30 caliber situations. There may be an argument for using fillers with fast pistol powders but I've not seen it IN THIS FORUM used with any degree of urgency.

According to Phil Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading:

"Hercules 2400... Introduced in 1932.... It can be used in .30-06 with an 80 grain .32-20 hollow-point bullet, and in this cartridge 26 grains gives a muzzle velocity of 2500 fps with a pressure well below 20,000 pounds.... By the same token 43.4 grains gives a muzzle velocity of 3600 fps with 51,000 pounds. With a gas-check bullet, velocities in the vicinity of 2000 fps give excellent accuracy. It can even be used with a 220 grain bullet in this cartridge, 14 grains gives a muzzle velocity of 2170 fps with 51,000 pounds pressure."

Notice there's no mention of any type of filler and this is a very broad application for that one powder.

I've heard very positive things about Grex shot buffer used as a cast bullet load filler. I may try it one day. But in some circumstances with certain rifles and certain loads I'm getting +/- MOA with my military bolt action rifles without using any type of filler and using 2400. In order of use my 1st line cast bullet rifle powders are: Unique, 2400, 700X, SR4759, Rx7, 5744, IMR4198. I could live quite nicely if I never used anything other than Unique and 2400.

Dutch

We have had a series of "filler wars" on this board throughout it long existance and different hosts. I don't think there will every be any agreement, just folks touting their experience as the way to do things. So why not..here is my experience..which will not find agreement in all quarters.

1. I shoot lots and lots of 2400 in 30-30,30-40,308, 30-06 and 45-70 plus a few others from time to time and have never used a filler with excellent results.

2. Grex is no longer available, but Precision Shotshell folks do sell something very close. I use it and have had good results with a couple of provisos..

A. Dont use this stuff unless the powder charge occupies 70% or more of the case capacity.

B. Don't use this stuff with long stick powders where it can mix with the powder.

C. With any powder used enough buffer to get a light compression of the powder column to prevent it from mixing with the powder.

D. Always remember this adds weight so don't add it to an already develped load. Back off and work up again with the buffer in place.

Das all I have to say on the subject at hand.

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Originally Posted by Char-Gar

We have had a series of "filler wars" on this board

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Yes, this forum has a habit of "wars" that go on and on ad naseum. I don't waste my time with wars but I do read the varying opinions and try and pick out the virtue of any good position stated on a subject. Then I place a value on the position and take it from there.

Back in the 70s when I first cast for .30-06 using Unique I did use du Pont kapok 1.5 grs and could get it pinched off with some surprising consistency. For some reason I didn't follow through with .30-06.. I think I traded that particular 03A3 as part of a deal for a 1960 GMC 3/4 ton pickup truck (ex-fire dept truck). I needed the truck more than the rifle since it was a $60 rifle anyway. I never did experiment with kapok after that. I think the NRA Handloader's Guide circa 1969 had some good info on that..

I usually pay attention to what you write.

Dutch

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Originally Posted by wallenba

Oops...my bad. It's not new, just new to me. It's a salvaged 7.7 type 99 with a chrome bore in vgc. Actually in much better condition externally as well. Got it here> http://www.schludershots.com/

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Thank you for the link.......I think I've just found a new parts source.

I have several type 99's and 38's and they all seem to share the same characteristic with cast.......soft, sized boolits don't work. HARD, sized boolits work!

Should you wish to build a J-word bullet load look to the Hornady 175 gr .312 bullets. These were originally designed for the 7.7 bores, either in original chambering or when rechambered to .30-06.

The 150 gr Hornady .312 has proven extremely accurate in every .303 I've tried it with, so its another option.

I'd stick with .303 British for cast boolit load data.

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Originally Posted by Dutchman

Yes, this forum has a habit of "wars" that go on and on ad naseum. I don't waste my time with wars but I do read the varying opinions and try and pick out the virtue of any good position stated on a subject. Then I place a value on the position and take it from there.

Back in the 70s when I first cast for .30-06 using Unique I did use du Pont kapok 1.5 grs and could get it pinched off with some surprising consistency. For some reason I didn't follow through with .30-06.. I think I traded that particular 03A3 as part of a deal for a 1960 GMC 3/4 ton pickup truck (ex-fire dept truck). I needed the truck more than the rifle since it was a $60 rifle anyway. I never did experiment with kapok after that. I think the NRA Handloader's Guide circa 1969 had some good info on that..

I usually pay attention to what you write.

Dutch

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That really isn't very nice of you, now is it. There was no reason to stick that jab in. For a fellow that doesn't waste your time with wars, you can fire a poison barb. I have thought well of you, but I guess I will have to rethink that.

I'm afraid you've misunderstood whatever you think I meant. Nothing negative meant, just an observation.

Dutch

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Originally Posted by Dutchman

I'm afraid you've misunderstood whatever you think I meant. Nothing negative meant, just an observation.

Dutch

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Dutch..You are correct I did misconscrew what you said... When I read that, my pea brain read it this way.. I don't pay attention to what you write.

My bad and my apology to you. You were falsely accused. You are now back at the top of my good guy list.

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Originally Posted by Char-Gar

Dutch..You are correct I did misconscrew what you said... When I read that, my pea brain read it this way.. I don't pay attention to what you write.

My bad and my apology to you. You were falsely accused. You are now back at the top of my good guy list.

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New war averted.:bigsmyl2: