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Seriously thinking about a .357 marlin for use with cast bullets.
While I can buy cast rnfp bullets for a lot less than I can make them, the same cant be said for hollowpoints for hunting.
Would anyone know of a mould currently available from someone like lyman, rcbs, etc, for a pb hp in about the 140-160 gr range?
Welcome, Bob!
Get the Marlin. I just bought one (actually, my wife bought it for me for Christmas), and I love it! I am loading Cast Performance 187 gr. FPGC and Hornady 180 gr. XTP-HP bullets. I haven't shot any of them yet, but will Monday or Tuesday.
Here is an article by John Taffin on the Marlin 1894C and hand loads.
Levergun Loads: The .357 Magnum: It's Not Just For Revolvers
By John Taffin
The .357 Magnum debuted in 1935 smack dab in the middle of the Depression. It was certainly not a six-gun that everyone could afford. Six years later we would be at war and production of Smith & Wesson's original and magnificent .357 Magnum ceased. Even after the war ended it would be quite a time before shooters saw the .357 Magnum again, in fact well into the 1950s. Smith & Wesson offered the original .357 Magnum as well as a less nicely finished version--the Highway Patrolman. and the brand-new Combat Magnum. Great Western had appeared on the scene with a Single Action Frontier Model in .357, and the relative newcomer. Sturm, Ruger, had introduced the first thoroughly modernized single action, the .357 Blackhawk.
Even though it made total sense, no one offered a .357 Magnum levergun at that time. To obtain one, it was necessary to have an original Winchester Model 92 .25-20 or .32-20 converted. A gunsmith at the time, one Ward Koozer of Arizona, had a lively business converting such leverguns to .357, and with the arrival of the .44 Magnum, both Winchester and El Tigre .44-40s were converted to that caliber.
I wanted a .357 Magnum six-gun and a companion levergun. However, it was necessary to graduate, get a job and make money. By 1957, I had my .357 six-guns--a Smith & Wesson Highway Patrolman and a Ruger Blackhawk. I could still hear the siren song of a .357 levergun. Time passed. Marriage. College. Babies. There was no money available for a factory produced levergun even if one did exist let alone dollars to spend on a custom conversion. It was during my college years that Marlin saw fit to introduce a levergun for a six-gun cartridge, however the 1963-issued version was in .44 not .357. The Marlin 336 I purchased after graduation as a companion levergun to a Ruger Super Blackhawk and Smith & Wesson Model 29 is still going strong these many years later. Finally, in 1969 Marlin satisfied my desires with the first factory produced, honest-to-goodness, .357 Magnum. the 1894C. To this day it remains one of Marlin's most popular leverguns.
To me, the 10-shot 1894C .357 Magnum is the handiest and most desirable of all centerfire rifles of any caliber or action type. There is very little needing to be done with a rifle that I cannot accomplish with this little Marlin. It is not the perfect choice and perhaps not even a good choice for hunting big game. However. I have no doubt I could keep my family fed, and fed well with nothing else but a .22 and a .357 Magnum Marlin.
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So-called “assault rifles” are very popular with those who think they need them for defensive purposes. However, the little .357 Magnum fits right in here as well and is much easier to pack, shoot, reload for and, most importantly, for which to carry an adequate supply of ammunition. Add to this extremely, mild recoil for the muzzle energy produced, and certainly even greater accuracy than is needed, and the .357 Magnum levergun moves to the top of my list.
Once Marlin started producing the .357 Magnum levergun, others followed suit. For a while Browning offered the Model B92. a 10-shot replica of the original Winchester 1892 in both .357 and .44 Magnum. Long out of production, both are eagerly sought at gun shows. Winchester chambered its Model 94 Trapper in .357 and Rossi did likewise with the Puma, another Winchester Model 92 spin-off. Today .357 Magnums are offered in several levergun versions from Marlin and Winchester as well as Winchester Model 1892 replicas from several importers. The latter is available in both blue and stainless steel versions. Currently my original .357 Marlin has been joined by a second 1894C, a gun shop find. One wears iron sights and the other a 4X scope. I also shoot Browning’s B92. Winchester’s Trapper. And a Rossi Model 92. All of these guns will find their way into the hands of my grandkids someday.
Although chambered for a cartridge most often found in six-guns, it is not quite as easy to come up with great loads for a levergun as it is for a revolver. Powder selection is quite simple as to use the same powders normally used for .357 six-gun loads. Those powders are 2400. H4227. AA No. 9. and WW296 with cast bullets, and the addition of VVN110. Enforcer. And Li’l Gun for jacketed bullet use. Large volumes of loads are assembled on RCBS’s Pro-2000 Progressive Reloader using Redding’s .357 Magnum dies. I prefer the primer strips of the RCBS 2000 to loading primer tubes as well as appreciating the fact primer seating is nearly foolproof with this progressive press. Redding’s dies seem to be held to very tight tolerances and .357 Magnum ammunition loaded with these dies fit every .357 Magnum six-gun and levergun I have tried them in. This has not always been true with some other makes of dies.
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Most .357 Magnum six-guns will shoot anything well that will chamber in the cylinder. Not so with leverguns. Some of my most used .357 Magnum reloads for several decades have been assembled with Lyman’s 58429, Elmer Keith’s original designed .38 semi-wadcutter; and RCBS’s shorter nosed version, 38-150KT, With my alloy, these weigh in at 173 grains and 155 grains, respectively. However, both are plain-based bullets without gas checks and, although they work well in revolvers, it is normally a waste of time to try to get adequate accuracy from them at Magnum velocities in a lever rifle. Believe me, I, have, tried, with results all the way from a “tight” three inches at 50 yards up to some bullets not even hitting the target at that distance.
A second problem that occurs has to do With overall length. Keith designed his 358429 for heavy-duty loads in the .38 Special prior to the advent of the .357 Magnum. When loaded in .357 brass and crimped in the crimping groove, the overall cartridge length is longer than the cylinder of the original Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum resulting in the nose of the cartridge protruding from the end of the cylinder. However, all current large-framed .357 Magnum revolvers that I’m aware of will handle magnum loads with Keith’s bullet properly loaded. This is not true with leverguns. This particular round will feed well only in Winchester’s Model 94, poorly in Marlin’s 1894C, and not at all in the replica Model 92s. All loads assembled with RCBS’s 38-150 KT feed fine in all .357 Magnum leverguns, however, unless muzzle velocities are held way below Magnum levels, accuracy is very poor with both bullets. Cast bullets will work both in the Marlin and Browning .357 leverguns, how ever, for any kind of acceptable results, they must have gas checks.
One of the all-time favorite bullets for the .357 Magnum is Lyman’s 358156GC designed by Ray Thompson. Thompson’s .38 bullet has two crimping grooves, and Skeeter Skelton had high regard for this bullet especially when used to assemble heavy-duly .38 loads by crimping in the bottom crimp groove. This gave the same basic powder capacity as when loaded in .357 Magnum brass and crimped in the top groove.
Here is the rest of the article...
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This is not only an excellent bullet for revolvers, it is also one of the best cast bullets available for leverguns. With this bullet, my preference is for .357 Magnum brass crimped in the top crimping groove. Loaded over 16 grains of 2400 ignited by CCI 550 Magnum Pistol Primer, it gives a muzzle velocity of more than 1,900 fps from Marlin’s 18 ½” barrel. To put this into proper perspective, consider that the original .30-30 load in 1895 was a 160 grain bullet at 1,950 fps. This load is superbly accurate however. While it is found in older loading manuals for use in revolvers, it may be too warm when using the current version of Alliant’s 2400 in six-guns. Two lesser loads that still shoot extremely well in leverguns and are also perfectly acceptable for revolver use are assembled with 14.5 grains of H4227 for just under 1.600 fps or 14 grains of AA9 for right at 1.750 fps.
A commercial version of this gas checked bullet with one crimping groove is BRP’s 155 SWCGC. Loaded over the long time standard .357 Magnum charge of 15 grains of 2400, the muzzle velocity is well over 1,800 fps with three-shot groups of less than two inches obtained at 50 yards. As a cast bullet combination six-gun/levergun load for those who do not cast their own it would be hard to beat.
As with most six-guns, leverguns also do their very best with heavy bullets in the 180 to 190 grain range. Two commercial bullets that are available that fit this category are BRP’s 180-grain SWCGC and Cast Performance Bullet Co.’s 187-grain LBTGC. Both of these bullets are phenomenally accurate in the Marlin 1894C when loaded over 13 grains of WW296 for just under 1,500 fps. These are not maximum loads. However I prefer them as they also work exceptionally well exhibiting excellent accuracy and light recoil in a pair of Ruger .357 Flat-Top Blackhawks, one an original 4 5/8-inch version and the second one a custom 10 ½” bull barreled long-range shooter. I’m a great advocate of “Don’t fix what ain’t broke,” and this load is definitely not broke.
Either one of these bullets will give maximum penetration and would be my choice for use on feral hogs. They would also be adequate for deer but l would be more inclined to choose a jacketed bullet, preferably a hollow point. I have found Hodgdon’s Li’l’ Gun to be a stellar performer in the .357 Magnum. Hornady’s 158-grain XTP over 18 grains of Li’l Gun clocks out at the 1,825 fps and puts three shots in less than one inch at 50 yards. I often hunt in Texas where one could encounter whitetail, javelina, and turkey all from the same blind on the same morning. This load is accurate enough to head shoot turkeys and not ruin any edible meat.
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Speer’s 158-grain JFP over 15.5 gr. Of 2400, a longtime standard .357 Magnum load, is slightly slower at around 1,750 fps but is just as accurate. Speer also has a line of copper-cupped bullets with pure lead cores in .357 diameter and is available in a 160-grain JFP or 146-grain JHP. The former loaded over the same charge of 18 grains of Li’l Gun is just under 1,900 fps from the 18 ½” barreled Marlin and also puts three shots in less than one inch at 50 yards. This is an excellent choice or broadside shots on deer and deer-sized game with as much or more expansion than a hollow point.
The .357 Magnum has been around six-gun style for nearly 70 years. For most of that time there has been a continuing argument over whether or not it is adequate for deer. When the same loads are placed in a levergun there is no argument. It certainly is.
For quality gas-checked cast bullets’ readers can contact Jay Sanders of BRP at P.O. Box 70, Whitehall MT 59759; (406) 287-3120; or Kelly Brost of Cast Performance Bullet Co., P.O. Box 153, Riverton, WY 82501; (307) 857-2940.
BROWNING B91 20” BARREL
JACKETED BULLET LOADS
Bullet Load/Powder Velocity Group Size
(grains weight) (fps) (3 shots @ 50 yds)
Speer 140JHP 19.5 WW296 1,902 1 5/8
Hornady 140 JHP 17.5 2400 2,020 1 ¾
Speer 158 JHP 15.5 2400 1,745 1 ¾
Hornady 158 JHP 15.5 2400 1,816 1 7/8
Hornady 158 JHP 17.5 WW296 1,802 1 ½
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MARLIN 1984C 18 1/2" BARREL
CAST BULLET LOADS
CCI 550 Magnum Pistol Primer
Bullet Load/Powder Velocity Group Size
(grains weight) (fps) (50 yds)
Lyman 358156GC 16.0 2400 1,902 3/4
Lyman 358156GC 14.5 H4227 1,588 1 1/4
Lyman 358156GC 14.0 AA9 1,744 1
BRP 155 SWCGC 15.0 2400 1,834 1 1/2
BRP 180 SWCGC 13.0 WW296 1,469 3/8
CPB 187 LBT 13.0 WW296 1,490 7/8
JACKETED BULLET LOADS
Bullet Load/Powder Velocity Group Size
(grains weight) (fps) (3 shots @ 50 yds)
Hornady 140 XTP 15.0 AA9 1,882 1 3/8
Hornady 140 XTP 19.5 WW296 1,962 1
Hornady 158 XTP 14.0 2400 1,677 1
Hornady 158 XTP 18.0 L'IL GUN 1,828 3/4
Hornady 158 XTP 17.5 WW296 1,858 1
Nosler 158 JHP 14.0 2400 1,760 1
Sierra 140 JHC 15.0 AA9 1,842 1
Bullet Load/Powder Velocity Group Size
(grains weight) (fps) (3 shots @ 50 yds)
Sierra 158 JHC 13.0 Enforcer 1,688 1
Sierra 170 JHC 14.0 2400 1,657 2
Speer 140 JHP 17.5 2400 1,995 1
Speer 158 GD-HP 18.0 L'IL GUN 1,845 1 1/4
Speer 158 JFP 15.5 2400 1,742 3/4
Speer 160 JFP 18.0 Li’l Gun 1,888 7/8
Speer 170 GDHP 14.0 2400 1,597 1
GSPKurt, Excellent article, I have recently fell victim to the .357 in a rifle. I am, working with 180 Gr keith Group Buy sponsored by catshooter. My rifle comes alive with the 180 GR Boolit. Can't wait till monday to burn more powder........larry
Is that the mold or actual bullet group buy?Quote:
Originally Posted by cherok9878
What powder do you use? Charge weight?
I too have heard that the heavier bullets do better in the .357 Marlins. My son gave me a 94C and I've been using the 358156 as recommended in an article written by our own Glen Fryxell. I'm using XS ghost ring sights with this little rifle and have gotten decent accuracy out of it. I think to really know what the rifle's capable of accuracy wise you'd need to scope it and that's not the role this rifle will play for me. Last Saturday I pickedup and old 358429 two cavity in the junk bin of a local gunshop. I loaded 10 unsized handlubbed rounds over 14.5 gr. of 296 and it seems to shoot as well as the 358156 in this short test. I did get a trace of light leading but nothing bad. Also had to crimp on the front band as the bullets a little long for the Marlin. I'm going to chrony this load and do some more accuracy tests. If it will do 1600 fps and provide adequate accuracy I may switch to this bullet and modify the carrier (per instructions on Beartooth Bullets website) so that I can eliminate the gascheck. BTW these bullets are dropping from the mould at about .360 and weigh 175 gr. unlubed using WW + tin.
GSPKurt, sorry I didn't check this thread before responding to your PM. This is a group buy mould, plain base. The preferred powder for this boolit and hunting loads seems to be Lil' Gun, check out junior1942's site the Frugal outdoorsman. There is a link to his site at the bottom of each post he makes, interesting site.Quote:
Originally Posted by GSPKurt
Lil' Gun isn't available around here, I used "old" H110, started at 15 gr and worked up in .5 gr increments to 16.5 gr. primers were beginning to flatten and accuracy was the best this rifle has ever given with any boolit including J-wordso I stopper there for now, untill I can get some Lil' Gun. I believe 357 Maximum(Michael) uses Lil' Gun also. He may have some info for you.
The rifle is a Rossi 92 with Williams receiver sight, hope I answered your question.......larry