strange thing happened

i got to go shootin sunday!!! its the first time in so long i cant remember the last time. it was a last minute thing and was late in the day so i didnt get much organized testing done, but it was fun and i did have a few successes. the guns i took were my redhawk 44, my smith 38S&W, and my destroyer carbine 9mm bergmann. the load for the 44 was lino boolits cast in a lyman 429421 lubed with lyman 50\50 over 20 grains of 2400. i fired about 40 rounds and to my delight the is no lead in my gun, at all! the last load i tryed was terrible. the accuracy test was bunk because im so out of practice. i did manage to get some two inch groups at 20 even though my trigger control is out to lunch and was shaking badly. if i can get some practice the accuracy will come back quicly. the load for the 38S&W was the 358158RF lapped and sized .363, lubed with lyman 50\50 over 2.2 grains of bullseye. this load performed much better than previous loads but after 50 rounds i still had much more lead in the gun than i want. not as bad as the last time by a long shot. the gun had a light coat of lead in the cylinder throats and in the forcing cone and first inch of barrell. i cant seem to understand how it leads in the cylinder. i didnt slug all the throats but the ones i did measure .363 and the boolits are tight. also all the throats lead equally. the accuracy was good untill the end and then it opened up. the load for the destroyer was a 124RN tumble lubed with the lee stuff over 3 grains of bullseye. i have to say this is the first time the lee lube worked for me ever! i fired about 50 rounds and its accurate and alot of fun to shoot. the barrel was good and clean afterwards and honestly i just wiped it down with a gun rag and put it away. im very happy all in all with how great everything went and even with the little leading in the 38 its so much better than before its almost exceptable the way it is. our host is a friend of my youngest son and it looks like we are going to be able to go back when we want.:cbpour:

All in All sounds like it was a good shoot.

On that 38, you might try a softer boolit to stop the leading, your not getting any boolit upset in the throats so there is some gas cutting going on.

CI,
Your post is an informative account of your session.
It is well-written with decent punctuation, and your spelling is better than most.
If you would just start using capitalization, your stuff would be so much easier to read.

Not a flame...not trolling for a fight...I'm just sayin'...

CM

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Originally Posted by Calamity Jake

All in All sounds like it was a good shoot.

On that 38, you might try a softer boolit to stop the leading, your not getting any boolit upset in the throats so there is some gas cutting going on.

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I have to ask how he can get more upset when the boolit is tight in the throats?
I would say he is wasting lino in the .44 as he does not need such hard boolits and the boolits in the .38 are too soft. He never said the alloy in the .38.
Upset does not work anyway and a boolit of the right hardness in the .38, even smaller will still work.
Softer is always the first answer but that is not always true and a better alloy could cure the leading as can a lube change. .38's are notorious for ruining soft boolits and spitting lead out of the gap.

Good to hear the 124gr RN worked out for ya Chevy. :)
.

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Originally Posted by 44man

I have to ask how he can get more upset when the boolit is tight in the throats?
I would say he is wasting lino in the .44 as he does not need such hard boolits and the boolits in the .38 are too soft. He never said the alloy in the .38.
Upset does not work anyway and a boolit of the right hardness in the .38, even smaller will still work.
Softer is always the first answer but that is not always true and a better alloy could cure the leading as can a lube change. .38's are notorious for ruining soft boolits and spitting lead out of the gap.

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the boolits in the 44 are lino because it was the only way i could get them to cast big enough to fill the throats. the 44 mould belongs to Jawjaboy and i dont want to lapp on it.

the boolits in the 38 are air cooled WW's. the leading in the 38 doesnt look like streaks as in others i have seen, it looks like a even coat of grey paint. it starts where the case ends exactly, almost like lead is spraying out of the case at ignition.

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Originally Posted by jawjaboy

Good to hear the 124gr RN worked out for ya Chevy. :)
.

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Jawjaboy, you aint kiddin! i like this little rifle, but i couldnt afford to feed it those XTP's. now all i need to do is find time to cast up a barrel full of boolits![smilie=w:

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Originally Posted by montana_charlie

CI,
Your post is an informative account of your session.
It is well-written with decent punctuation, and your spelling is better than most.
If you would just start using capitalization, your stuff would be so much easier to read.

Not a flame...not trolling for a fight...I'm just sayin'...

CM

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CM, no problem, and no offense taken. I'll think about it.:castmine:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chevyiron420

the boolits in the 44 are lino because it was the only way i could get them to cast big enough to fill the throats. the 44 mould belongs to Jawjaboy and i dont want to lapp on it.

the boolits in the 38 are air cooled WW's. the leading in the 38 doesnt look like streaks as in others i have seen, it looks like a even coat of grey paint. it starts where the case ends exactly, almost like lead is spraying out of the case at ignition.

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Understood about the .44.
Try water dropping the .38's to see what happens. You have a good test bed there so I would be interested in what you find.
I shoot all sizes of boolits from my .44 from .430" to .433" with no problems or leading, my throats are .4324". I have never seen lead in any throat for over 50 years when I had to clean police .38's.
You could have large chambers and the boolit base is flaring out to chamber size before getting stuffed through the throats.
That is why I shoot pretty hard boolits (22 to 30 BHN) from my .44 SBH, chambers are so large my fired brass will not go in any other gun. When I neck size I have to keep brass for all guns separate. My large throats actually help with the large chambers. My bore is .430".
Throats get carbon build up but no lead so they do tighten up some! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
Anyway, I have found with the proper alloy and hardness the gun prefers, boolits do not have to be a tight fit in throats. It is way overblown and a few thousandths means nothing. More important to match or slightly exceed groove size.
I do not shoot fast powders though so you might try a slightly slower powder, the Bullseye might be causing you a problem. Try starting the boolits more gently. Use a powder that cushions the base until it has moved out. In other words, use a powder that does not ALL ignite in the brass.

<monkey wrench into the works> If you swaged those XTPs up to correct diameter wouldn't that help some?<flying monkey wrench, away!>.

The softer ally would be my first experiment on the cast side too. I bet when you hit that alloy sweet spot it will really shine. Good Luck!

the 38 S&W uses 158 gr rn.try dipping loaded rds in tumble lube,the bullet nose.might help I use 700X which is next to bullseye.I use it in all pistol calibers except 45 colt.and I load from 25 acp up.no 44s.

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Originally Posted by chevyiron420

The load for the 38 S&W was the 358158RF lapped and sized .363, lubed with lyman 50\50 over 2.2 grains of bullseye. This load performed much better than previous loads but after 50 rounds I still had much more lead in the gun than I want. Not as bad as the last time by a long shot.

The gun had a light coat of lead in the cylinder throats and in the forcing cone and first inch of barrell. I cant seem to understand how it leads in the cylinder. I didnt slug all the throats but the ones I did measure .363 and the boolits are tight. Also all the throats lead equally. The accuracy was good untill the end and then it opened up.

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First, montana_charlie is right. That is the hardest to read post I have seen in a very long time. If you want people to help you, you need to capitalize and use paragraphs.

Just a SWAG but .363" throats are HUGE, maybe even a little larger than that. What did you use to measure "not all" of the throats, a caliper? You will not, cannot get accurate measurements with a caliper, you need a decent micrometer.

From the little info you gave on the leading it is not your alloy and a harder alloy than WW with the pressures of a 38 is simply not needed. It is very doubtful that a lube change will help either.

What you need to do is re-check the throat diameters. From your description of the leading and the .363" "tight" fit in the throats I am almost willing to bet the house your problem is boolits at least .0035" over size for the throats. If you do not have the proper tools and equipment to properly slug the throats and get an accurate measurement not to worry, a lot of people don't but it is a very simple thing for your smith to do for you.

Next, you do not want "tight" in the throats, you want a mild snug fit meaning that you can drop a boolit into the throat and it will stay but . . . you can tap it out with the erasure end of a pencil. Any tighter than this is too tight.

My next SWAG is that if these boolits are that much over size and you can still chamber the loaded rounds your boolit length and or cartridge loaded length is too short to reach the throat. If this is the case this also can cause cylinder leading by allowing the loaded round to lay at an angle in the cylinder (chamber). The boolit is then not lined up with the throat or the center line of the bore and when the round is fired the boolit has to "find" the throat, the edge of the boolit finds the edge of the throat and shaves lead. Couple this with over size boolits and you have seen the results, a leaded cylinder. Once the cylinder is leaded this way and you continue shooting (50 rounds) the lead is blown forward onto the forcing cone and into the beginning of the bore.

Rick

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Originally Posted by cbrick

First, montana_charlie is right. That is the hardest to read post I have seen in a very long time. If you want people to help you, you need to capitalize and use paragraphs.

Just a SWAG but .363" throats are HUGE, maybe even a little larger than that. What did you use to measure "not all" of the throats, a caliper? You will not, cannot get accurate measurements with a caliper, you need a decent micrometer.

From the little info you gave on the leading it is not your alloy and a harder alloy than WW with the pressures of a 38 is simply not needed. It is very doubtful that a lube change will help either.

What you need to do is re-check the throat diameters. From your description of the leading and the .363" "tight" fit in the throats I am almost willing to bet the house your problem is boolits at least .0035" over size for the throats. If you do not have the proper tools and equipment to properly slug the throats and get an accurate measurement not to worry, a lot of people don't but it is a very simple thing for your smith to do for you.

Next, you do not want "tight" in the throats, you want a mild snug fit meaning that you can drop a boolit into the throat and it will stay but . . . you can tap it out with the erasure end of a pencil. Any tighter than this is too tight.

My next SWAG is that if these boolits are that much over size and you can still chamber the loaded rounds your boolit length and or cartridge loaded length is too short to reach the throat. If this is the case this also can cause cylinder leading by allowing the loaded round to lay at an angle in the cylinder (chamber). The boolit is then not lined up with the throat or the center line of the bore and when the round is fired the boolit has to "find" the throat, the edge of the boolit finds the edge of the throat and shaves lead. Couple this with over size boolits and you have seen the results, a leaded cylinder. Once the cylinder is leaded this way and you continue shooting (50 rounds) the lead is blown forward onto the forcing cone and into the beginning of the bore.

Rick

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first of all, montana charlie was polite and respectfull. you are not. second, i dont know what a SWAG is but, if you think that .363 is huge for a 38S&W you realy dont know anything about them do you! also for your info, i was a engine machinist for 21 years and i am used to measuring more accuratly than most. i am sorry that my way of writing bothers you please except my invatation to not read them any more.

SWAG = Scientific Wild-Arsed Guess

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Originally Posted by chevyiron420

first of all, montana charlie was polite and respectfull. you are not. second, .

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Bull, there is nothing disrespectful about either my post or the truth. I simply stated a fact.

I spent a fair amount of my time attempting to help YOU. You want disrespectful look in the mirror you *hole. Since you don't know what a SWAG is see if you can figure this one out. ESAD

Rick

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Originally Posted by cbrick

Bull, there is nothing disrespectful about either my post or the truth. I simply stated a fact.

I spent a fair amount of my time attempting to help YOU. You want disrespectful look in the mirror you *hole. Since you don't know what a SWAG is see if you can figure this one out. ESAD

Rick

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Just.........wow.

Folks, when i took offence to ricks post i should have just got off here and shut my computor off till later. I didnt, and i know better and for that i opoligize to all the great people here.
Rick, if you would like to talk about it shoot me a P. M.:lovebooli