45-70 Sharps very old action and lock

I bought this Rifle in the middle 1980's FOR A $180.00. The action is a black powder action stamped 1856 the lock is stamped 1847 so it is quite old. Overall shape was real good. It had a 20" barrel. I already had all the paraphernalia for casting and loading. My only mold at the time was a Lyman 292gr. RFN. I loaded up some rounds with 10 grains of Unique giving about 1000 FPS. Range results was poor to non existent. Could not hit a 5 gallon bucket at 50 yards. Took it home and slugged the barrel, it slugged at .463 What to do. I came up with the Idea to Teflon tap the slug to make it some what larger. Back to the range, I could keep the shots within about 5" group. Still not good enough, the Teflon helped but it was tedious work and the results was way off from what I wanted. I decided to bite the bullet and have a new barrel put on it. The new barrel is 27". Another $180.00, at the time that was a good chunk of change. Turned out it was a good investment. My groups shrunk to 1 MOA at a hundred yeards. That 292gr slug shot well at a hundred yards but as I started shooting at 150 plus the groups opened up quite a bit. My next mold, a Lyman 320 gr. hollow point, with my alloy it actually dropped boolit at about 340gr. That boolit shot 3" groups at 300 yards, beyond that it was lacking also. My next mold a Lee 500gr that kind of looks like a spear point but has a small round nose. This boolit worked great on the 500yd buffalo. The buffalo is 4' by 2' not including the head. This was my objective all along. I was getting ready to shoot the long range Cowboy shoots and the Cowboy action 4 gun shoot. I had at that time retired from work. I was some what young so I was able to shoot with a club for a number of years. I have been very fortunate to do so many things since I retired.

What action is it? Any idea when it was chambered? The .45-70 appeared in 1873.

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Originally Posted by Skipper

What action is it? Any idea when it was chambered? The .45-70 appeared in 1873.

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These were originally a breach loading paper cartridge with a conical bullet pushed in ahead of the paper cartridge. When the breach was closed it sheared off the tail of the paper cartridge it was probably a 54 caliber. It used a musket cap for ignition. These rifles were later converted to the 50-70 rim fire cartridge.

Over so many decades the old Sharps (and other rifles) have seen many reconfigurations to make them more shootable. Sounds like your plan to rebarrel it was a very good choice! The results certainly say it was!

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Originally Posted by marlinman93

Over so many decades the old Sharps (and other rifles) have seen many reconfigurations to make them more shootable. Sounds like your plan to rebarrel it was a very good choice! The results certainly say it was!

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I really like this Rifle. I try to keep.my loads in the 1000 to 1300fps range. I at present have 4 molds for it. It shoots great with all of them, as long as I keep the range with in the capability of each one. I have tried several powders but keep coming back to Unique as It gives me the results that I want. I don't use filler with any of my loads. I also don't worry about powder positioning, as I haven't seen any difference in accuracy by positioning the powder like tipping the barrel up to get the powder to the rear of the case before firing.

Sounds like it was originally a percussion 1863 Sharps. The government reworked several tens of thousands of them in the 1867-1869 period for .50-70.
They were NOT rimfire! The early Benet primed cartridges look like rim fires, but are not: The tell is that if you look up about 3/16-1/4” up the copper cartridge, you’ll see two crimp marks, one on each side of the case. That is to hold the internal primer in. It’s easily mistaken for a rim fire.
The firing pin strikes the center of the cartridge, igniting the primer underneath that spot.
I have a fired case, as well as several sectioned cartridges that clearly show how this worked.
Glad you got yours going! Mine is in the .50/70 conversion.
Sort of unfortunately, mine is also part of the 1/3 that had bores somewhat smaller than .5225”, they were not re-sleeved for .515”. Mine is considerably over that size, probably near maximum.
Still, it’s a heck of a piece of history, and fun. Enjoy,

-Tom

Some pictures would be nice!

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Originally Posted by Tom Herman

Sounds like it was originally a percussion 1863 Sharps. The government reworked several tens of thousands of them in the 1867-1869 period for .50-70.
They were NOT rimfire! The early Benet primed cartridges look like rim fires, but are not: The tell is that if you look up about 3/16-1/4” up the copper cartridge, you’ll see two crimp marks, one on each side of the case. That is to hold the internal primer in. It’s easily mistaken for a rim fire.
The firing pin strikes the center of the cartridge, igniting the primer underneath that spot.
I have a fired case, as well as several sectioned cartridges that clearly show how this worked.
Glad you got yours going! Mine is in the .50/70 conversion.
Sort of unfortunately, mine is also part of the 1/3 that had bores somewhat smaller than .5225”, they were not re-sleeved for .515”. Mine is considerably over that size, probably near maximum.
Still, it’s a heck of a piece of history, and fun. Enjoy,

-Tom

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It has been quite a while sense I look at the model # and you are right, it is stamped 1863. I do have one loaded 50-70 round that I found in the dirt where I was delivering fuel to a road construction site just north of Prescott Arizona, that was around 1966. It does look like what you described, of course my thought was that it was a rim fire.

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Originally Posted by smithnframe

Some pictures would be nice!

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I am not good at posting pictures. I can text pictures, I could text some to you if you would like, just need a cell #.

I'm going to attempt to show pictures of the .50/70 Benet primed cartridges, please bear with me:

Attachment 293718 Fired .50/70 Benet Primed case.
Attachment 293719 Unfired sectioned Benet primed case showing primer.
Attachment 293720 Side crimps on fired case showing where the primer was crimped in.
Attachment 293721 2 cases side by side (or one above the other).

Hope this worked...

-Tom

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Originally Posted by Tom Herman

I'm going to attempt to show pictures of the .50/70 Benet primed cartridges, please bear with me:

Attachment 293718 Fired .50/70 Benet Primed case.
Attachment 293719 Unfired sectioned Benet primed case showing primer.
Attachment 293720 Side crimps on fired case showing where the primer was crimped in.
Attachment 293721 2 cases side by side (or one above the other).

Hope this worked...

-Tom

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They look exactly like the one I have. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by 45-70 Chevroner

It has been quite a while sense I look at the model # and you are right, it is stamped 1863. I do have one loaded 50-70 round that I found in the dirt where I was delivering fuel to a road construction site just north of Prescott Arizona, that was around 1966. It does look like what you described, of course my thought was that it was a rim fire.

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I went out to my loading room again, something just wasn't right. I got my magnifying glass out, my eyes are not what they used to be. The action is a 1846, and the lock is an 1852. I tried to get pictures of the model dates but the stamping are too small for my cell phone camera, so the pictures aren't sharp enough.

What is it a bought the date on this action, I looked up 1846 Sharps and the earliest date for Sharps Rifles is 1859. Could this action be miss marked or was it Patented in 1846 and didn't come out until 1859?

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Originally Posted by 45-70 Chevroner

I really like this Rifle. I try to keep.my loads in the 1000 to 1300fps range. I at present have 4 molds for it. It shoots great with all of them, as long as I keep the range with in the capability of each one. I have tried several powders but keep coming back to Unique as It gives me the results that I want. I don't use filler with any of my loads. I also don't worry about powder positioning, as I haven't seen any difference in accuracy by positioning the powder like tipping the barrel up to get the powder to the rear of the case before firing.

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Unique truly is a "unique" powder, and works pretty well for reduced loads in numerous old cartridges. I have found that 2400 also is another good smokeless, and 4198 gives me very good results also. Some of my most accurate loads, with least deviation in velocities are with 4198. 4198 also operates at very low pressures, which is great for old single shots.

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Originally Posted by marlinman93

Unique truly is a "unique" powder, and works pretty well for reduced loads in numerous old cartridges. I have found that 2400 also is another good smokeless, and 4198 gives me very good results also. Some of my most accurate loads, with least deviation in velocities are with 4198. 4198 also operates at very low pressures, which is great for old single shots.

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I've got some 4198 I'll have to give it a try, thanks.

Suspect those are patent dates. Sharps prior to 1859 were slant breach.

Christian Sharps started making rifles on his patent even before it was issued, IIRC. Had a machinist named Nippes make models for submission to the military and others he was hoping for a big contract from. Also some sporting models to be sold at retail to pay the bills.

The early ones were really weird looking, with box locks, separate trigger guards, Maynard tape primer spools, and a general overall lack of any standardization whatsoever. You can see pictures of them in Marcot’s book; they’ve all disappeared into collections. I’ve never seen one for sale at a Gun Show, let alone being shot at a range.

The ones that we see and shoot are the ones made by Robbins&Lawrence, when Sharps finally made his deal with a reliable big-time manufacturer. Even those models had continuous changes and improvements in one area or another, both by Sharps in his consulting role and by Lawrence, who was a mechanical genius, but by then, they all had the Sharps “look” that we all recognize.

The gun probably started out with one of these types of actions.

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Originally Posted by Tom Herman

Sounds like it was originally a percussion 1863 Sharps. The government reworked several tens of thousands of them in the 1867-1869 period for .50-70.
They were NOT rimfire! The early Benet primed cartridges look like rim fires, but are not: The tell is that if you look up about 3/16-1/4” up the copper cartridge, you’ll see two crimp marks, one on each side of the case. That is to hold the internal primer in. It’s easily mistaken for a rim fire.
The firing pin strikes the center of the cartridge, igniting the primer underneath that spot.
I have a fired case, as well as several sectioned cartridges that clearly show how this worked.
Glad you got yours going! Mine is in the .50/70 conversion.
Sort of unfortunately, mine is also part of the 1/3 that had bores somewhat smaller than .5225”, they were not re-sleeved for .515”. Mine is considerably over that size, probably near maximum.
Still, it’s a heck of a piece of history, and fun. Enjoy,

-Tom

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Actually a number (a few hundred if memory serves, see Frank Sellers book)of the early .50-70 conversions WERE rimfires. I had one years ago. They were also unlined barrels with original 6 groove percussion Sharps rifling instead of the more common 3 groove Springfield liners found in most (but not all!) of the centerfires. The oversize bores in the 6-groove barrels had dismal accuracy, so Springfield decided to bore out and reline the bulk of production.