Some shooting with the Whitworth

.............This was a few weeks back and the targets have been floating wround in the trunk of the car.

http://www.fototime.com/71CDEE9EC3464B3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/2D28F648060748A/standard.jpg

Both the above targets were fired at 100 yards with the same load but different front sight inserts. The left one had a blade and the right used an apurture front insert. I had swaged up 100 slugs and then took them to work and spent a couple hours one night patching them up. These weighed 482grs +/- .3gr max. Most were within 1/10 gr as close as the Dillon could split them.

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg

Just a shorter version of these. These were 530gr slugs. The Load was 80.0 of Elephant 2Fg measured and poured down the barrel, as I had forgotten the drop tube. Then a .100" thick lubed felt wad was run down. After this, one damp patch and one dry patch went up and down the barrel to the wad.

At loading the patched slugs had a thin film of TC Bore Butter whipped on by finger. Then the slug was set in the muzzle and would usually beat the ramrod down the barrel :-). You could usually hear it 'Thump' against the wad before I could get the range rod set into the muzzle.

I think the left group was larger just because the blade was harder to hold consistantly then using an apurture. I don't think apurture front sights are legal in regulated competition.

The 4 rounds grouped in the right target measure 1-1/8". Just HAD to have that flyer. I think that is one of the reasons paper patch slugs aren't used more in competition then they are. It adds another variable to the equation, and that flyer could very well have been caused by a patch that didn't completly leave the slug until sometime later in it's flight.

Counting the flyer the right group is 3" :-(

Regardless it was fun!

................Buckshot

OK.. help me out. I thought the whitworth rifle had a special projectile shaped like the barrel dimension? What am I confusing this with??

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Originally Posted by piwo

OK.. help me out. I thought the whitworth rifle had a special projectile shaped like the barrel dimension? What am I confusing this with??

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............The Whitworth historicly fired many more round projectiles then 'Twisted hexagonals". At ignition a round slug upsets to assume the hexagonal bore form. Only the well to do Whitworth match shooters back in the 1860's could afford the 'form fitting' slugs.

Those were swaged into bars, parted and then lathe turned to form the nose. It's been pretty well proven that round ones shoot just as well as the others.

................Buckshot

You must have watched "Shooter". ;)

That's the only movie I've ever seen that made mention of paper patched bullets.

Why do you patch them rather than just lube and shoot? Bull Shop makes some 488 grain conicals that I'll bet would fly great from that rifle (for sure an overpowder wad though). Make him send you some. :)

Underclocked , I watched shooter at a friends house with both our wives . When they got to the part about paper patching both me and the wifestarted to laugh as I am into paper patching. My friend and his wife looked at both of us as if we were nuts.

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Originally Posted by Underclocked

.Why do you patch them rather than just lube and shoot? Bull Shop makes some 488 grain conicals that I'll bet would fly great from that rifle (for sure an overpowder wad though). Make him send you some. :)

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..............Oh I regulalry shoot 'naked' lube grooved boolits:

http://www.fototime.com/7B076DAA4386827/standard.jpg

These are all the various types I've shot. Some GG types sized own and paper patched also. The best grease grooved boolits I've tried are the 2 on the right. The Lyman 457121-PH was made (and is still offered) for the Whitworth and Volunteer MLer's.

Those for 45 cal rifles dropping at .458/.460" have to be swaged hexagonal, or lubed and then run up through a push through die to make then .451". While the Lyman Postel and the Saeco #745 are similar, the Saeco outshoots the Lyman consistantly, even when both are scaled.

I used the Saeco sized to .451" to whack a 1' square steel plate at 600 yards 18 of 26 tries once at the range in Sierra Vista, AZ. Had the plate been 2' square (for 4 sq ft of area) I might have connected with all 26 :-). Actually, accuracy testing should really be done at 200 yards. The rifle has a 20" twist and these heavy conicals don't go to sleep at 100 yards. However, I'm an old guy and don't feel like walking out to 200 yards (and back) all the time, ha!

..................Buckshot

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Originally Posted by Buckshot

..............Oh I regulalry shoot 'naked' lube grooved boolits:

http://www.fototime.com/7B076DAA4386827/standard.jpg

These are all the various types I've shot. Some GG types sized own and paper patched also. The best grease grooved boolits I've tried are the 2 on the right. The Lyman 457121-PH was made (and is still offered) for the Whitworth and Volunteer MLer's.

Those for 45 cal rifles dropping at .458/.460" have to be swaged hexagonal, or lubed and then run up through a push through die to make then .451". While the Lyman Postel and the Saeco #745 are similar, the Saeco outshoots the Lyman consistantly, even when both are scaled.

I used the Saeco sized to .451" to whack a 1' square steel plate at 600 yards 18 of 26 tries once at the range in Sierra Vista, AZ. Had the plate been 2' square (for 4 sq ft of area) I might have connected with all 26 :-). Actually, accuracy testing should really be done at 200 yards. The rifle has a 20" twist and these heavy conicals don't go to sleep at 100 yards. However, I'm an old guy and don't feel like walking out to 200 yards (and back) all the time, ha!

..................Buckshot

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Why do you say that the 121 and such don't go to sleep at 100 yards? Are your groups better at 200 or the deviation from center less so at 200 than 100? I'm curious about that and also how you can tell.

Much Aloha,

Tom :cool:

..............Rattus58, The 457121-PH doesn't have any problem, just the heavier conicals. Sometimes when using real target weight paper targets and not the lighter (and cheaper) targets, you can see a definative 'ovaling' of the hole. The slug is still kind of hunting around it's center of gravity, or yawing, or whatever.

At 200 yards the holes are clean circles. Best I've been able to do with the Whitworth at 200 yards is about 3.5". That's not too bad considering the military type rear sight (stepped base, ladder and elevator). As a matter of fact, when the ladder is up, and using the elevator (not required at 200 yards) there is only a notch. The rifle has a crisp trigger, but it's a tad heavy and I'd guess maybe 6 lbs?

That custom boolit, 4th from the left in the photo is the worst at tipping as I've only shot it at 560 grs. It's not a paper patch design, but is swaged hexagonal and shot just as it is. I have only fired a hundred of them or so. They've not proven as accurate as the Saeco #745 at longer ranges. At 100 yards you get for sure signs of yaw, but at 200 they're point on. With that blunt nose, I don't know how far out they'd be stable.

.................Buckshot

Hi Buckshot... I shoot the 121 quite a bit, plus a gas check version made by Dan at Mountain Molds and have, it seems, always had nice clean holes with them. I have a RApine 500 grain bullet that casts about 520 actually, that also shoots ok even though I screwed up the mold to make it "larger diameter". Dang RApine makes a .451 mold alright, and when the lead dries... its a .450 or .4495 and doesn't shoot quite right.. but even though now an oval... shoot really quite good. The 121 I can size fairly nicely and they shoot phenomenally in my guns at a .452 sizing.

Thanks... I just love the stories about them whitworths... very interesting gun and especially how well they shoot the round conical...


Aloha.. Tom :cool:

Casting those Kranens would finish what little sanity I have left. :)

Rattus, you need to do the tape trick on that Rapine mold.

But sir... I"ve already "fixed" it... I almost need a barrel like one them oblong barrels of the early 1800's... forget which it was now.... but I'd love to try the paper patch on some of them sized down far enough... the .450 sizer i have is a hamlet sizer... :mrgreen: the .451 is a Lyman.

I've shot some paper patched bullets in my 91, but I don't remember anything "spectacular" about them compared to any of my other bullets at the time... mostly an experiment to see how it was done. Ive made "cartridges" too with paper soaked in "saltpeter"... that I just "mashed" down the barrel with the bullet on top. Those all went off without a hitch as well... but they weren't durable enough for the field... sooooo... unless there is a stronger mashable paper someone knows about...

The rip-tear cartridges are slower to load than my speed loaders... so they still have been the best... even if "plastic".... :)

Aloha.... Tom :cool:

Thats some great shooting! I do have a question about the loose boolit sliding down the bore so easy though. If you tip the barrel down, will it move off the powder? I think I would be inclined to add another wrap of paper or thicker paper.
I remember those plastic wads that were made for a while that a ball was set into. Seems as if the balls were sliding out of it and barrels were bulged. They quit making them.

If you are hunting, a loose bullet is of concern. I was hunting on Molokai in sweltering heat, even in the Kiawe (mesquite) forest even in the shade with a slip fit bullet on the powder after a fouling charge was sent... by days end (lunch) my bullet had escaped me completely.. and I spent (its hard to admit this) a good 20 minutes fussing with my gun only to find out that it was empty to start. It could just as well have traveled 2 inches... instead of finding its way out of the barrel.

I blame two things for this... the heat, my lube.. my inexperience .... :)

Aloha... Tom :cool:

Oh... another wrap... sounds good to me... :)

[QUOTE=44man;206652]Thats some great shooting! I do have a question about the loose boolit sliding down the bore so easy though. If you tip the barrel down, will it move off the powder? QUOTE]

...........I never tried tipping the barrel down to see. For a target rifle it isn't a problem. For hunting use, you're right. You'd be better off with a snugger fit.

..............Buckshot