Strength of your faith

A few weeks ago, the pastor of one of the Churches I attend gave a sermon that I continue to struggle with. The point of the sermon was to warn us that we will be persecuted for our faith.

The sermon started with an extremely graphic and violent video of Jesus being beaten, tortured, and crucified. (Luckily there were no children in attendance)

He talked about the person in Oregon who murdered Christian college kids a few years ago. This person asked who were Christians, and shot them.

The pastor asked two questions. The first was, “Would you denounce your faith if faced with the same situation those students were in?” The second was, “If the gunman had a gun pointed to the head of your child, would you denounce your faith?”

I fear that in both circumstances I would denounce Jesus. My faith is not strong.

If you wish to share your views, please give this a lot of thought and be honest. Put yourself in a room where you have seen other children murdered. Would you allow your child to be murdered to prove your faith?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dverna

A few weeks ago, the pastor of one of the Churches I attend gave a sermon that I continue to struggle with. The point of the sermon was to warn us that we will be persecuted for our faith.

The sermon started with an extremely graphic and violent video of Jesus being beaten, tortured, and crucified. (Luckily there were no children in attendance)

He talked about the person in Oregon who murdered Christian college kids a few years ago. This person asked who were Christians, and shot them.

The pastor asked two questions. The first was, “Would you denounce your faith if faced with the same situation those students were in?” The second was, “If the gunman had a gun pointed to the head of your child, would you denounce your faith?”

I fear that in both circumstances I would denounce Jesus. My faith is not strong.

If you wish to share your views, please give this a lot of thought and be honest. Put yourself in a room where you have seen other children murdered. Would you allow your child to be murdered to prove your faith?

---

You are right, dverna, you do not have the strength to face persecution. Only Christ has the strength to live out His life through you! If you try to live out the Christian life in your own strength in ordinary or extra-ordinary circumstances, you will fail. Is the Christian life lived for our glory or for God's glory? If we are able to live the Christian life in our own strength, who gets the glory, us or God? May it never be!

To this above might I add that men may focus an inordinate amount of time on the sufferings of Christ, but in my opinion, the Bible does not. (Matthew 27:35).

Just my opinion, but still something to consider.

exile

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dverna

The second was, “If the gunman had a gun pointed to the head of your child, would you denounce your faith?”

If you wish to share your views, please give this a lot of thought and be honest. Put yourself in a room where you have seen other children murdered. Would you allow your child to be murdered to prove your faith?

---

I actually don't have to give this a lot of thought.
I don't know how much my opinion is worth here, as my faith has been in a constant state of decline for the last 10 years to the point of being nearly non-existent. Most here will not agree with me, but I hope my opinion is welcome in spite of that. Please know that while there is not much belief left in me, I do still respect the people who hold strong beliefs.

If someone were holding a gun to my child's head I would tell them whatever they wanted to hear.
And I wouldn't want anything to do with a god sadistic enough to want me to sacrifice the life of my child to please his ego.
If he isn't understanding enough to give you a free pass on that one, merciful is not a label I would place on him.

I'm not trying to troll you.
If you asked for opinions, I imagine you're okay with those who don't necessarily mirror yours.

I do indeed trust the Lord, and I myself have no fear of physical death since I view it as just a transition to a new life the timing of which is entirely in His hands. That said, I’d lie to the gunman, and then I’d kill him. Of course I’d pray for him, and maybe that helps him in the next stage of his life.

"If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship (the KJV says to be burned) that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing." 1 Cor 13:3

I've always thought living for God is much more difficult than dying for him.

If you have a gun pointed at your head or your child's head I doubt either of you are going to live much longer regardless of your answer.

If a gunman wanted me to identify myself in a crowd as a Christian so he could kill me, I doubt I'd volunteer any information. Being a witness (martyr in Greek) seems pointless in that scenario. Who knows what he considers to be a Christian?

The Christian is supposed to be looking ahead, past this life on earth, to our eventual home with God in heaven. But God has put us on earth and we all have things to do. For many of us this means taking care of our families. Therefore, many of us don't want to leave at this time because we know if we left right now our family would suffer hardships. There's nothing wrong in feeling this. It means we love our families and that's what God wants from us. I wouldn't worry about this whole issue.

I look at Peter who three times denied Jesus, then when his end came, chose to be hung upside down on a cross because he didn't feel worthy to die as Jesus died. If we believe the Word is true, we are promised not to be given more than we can withstand. Easy for me to take a bullet for my faith, not so easy to see my bride or children maybe even a stranger. As in many things in life, circumstances will play a large part in a "what would you do" scenario. Ultimately, I count on the fact that God knows the heart.

I am a coward, it is what it is. I admit this.

I wish I had the courage of my convictions. I don't think many do now days.

I do not disagree with Arkansas Paul. Neither do I think that God would wish us to sacrifice a loved family member to prove our faith.

You do what you have to do to survive, hope that you do survive. Beg for forgiveness.

We are not God, we are mortal, we stumble fail and fall every day.
He loves us in spite of that. I believe that he would understand.

If someone held a gun to my head what would I do? Actually been there done that.
He did not want to persecute me though. He just wanted better seats at the concert I was working at as an usher.

What I did was pointed at the 6' 5" 300lb guy we called Tiny racing up the steps with 6 cops in tow. "You kill me, he's going to kill you. And he will make you suffer for a long time while he does it." "You have 10 seconds to get back across that fence or you are going to be arrested" And I started counting.

One of the hardest things I ever did. By the time I got to 6 the gun was gone, by 8 he was out of sight. By 10 Tiny had an arm wrapped around me and it was all over but the shaking.

Yes I am a coward. I was terrified.

Thank you gentlemen for sharing your perspectives.

It is said that God does not test us. I trust that is true. He loves us as a father, guides us, and helps us. I do not believe He would want us to die, or aid in the murder of another, to prove our faith in Him. Yet that was the message the pastor delivered.

Two days after the service, I sent the pastor an email about my concerns regarding both the video and message. He called me and shared with me that during his missionary work in SE Asia, his children had seen worse things than what the video showed. As to the message, I brought up that Paul had denied Christ three times to save himself and Jesus had forgiven him. The pastors response was something about the Holy Ghost that I did not understand....and we had already been on the phone for some time so I let it drop.

What has bothered me is that I will die to protect those I love, but I will not die to prove my faith....what little I have. Hearing from those who have stronger faith has been helpful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dverna

It is said that God does not test us.

---

God tests his people, but does not tempt them.

"Some time later God tested Abraham." Genesis 22:1 (there are other examples)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" James 1:13

Don, it's been said many times that the real secret of life, is to "know thyself." And I guess I've been around criminals enough to have become a bit inurred by lies, and if it would save a child's life for me to lie about my faith, I probably would tell the lie. But my faith wouldn't falter one iota. Many times, we "moderns" tend to get way too caught up in the words we use, and less by what their true meaning (if any) really and truly is. Much of what Christ tried to teach us can be summed up in the principle that it's not so much what we SAY that He attends most to, but what we DO. And if telling a lie would save a child's life, I don't think He'd look down on it too much.

Expecting one to tell the truth, even in such a dire situation, is a bit priggish, and I don't recall being advised to be priggish. In many instances, Christ advised his disciples to be wary and wise. And if I'm wrong, I believe I'd be forgiven, because I believe this strongly. But .... to each as they deem appropriate. It's things and questions like these that keeps us studying and listening to each other, and that keeps us challenged to continue our edification, and fine tune our faith, and our expressions of it.