Shooting light Cowboy loads with Trail Boss
.44 Mag 200 gr RN in an 1894 Marlin 6gr Trail Boss.
.357 125 gr RNFP in New Vaqueros, 4.3 gr Trail Boss
Question: if I powder coat and shoot low velocity, do I need to cast 50:50 lead/wheel weights to harden or just use soft lead? Thanks.
Pretty sure pure lead is fine. But I'll watch to see what other folks say.
I used WW/#2 with NRA 50/50 NRA Lube. But there was no one PCing ten years ago. But that alloy served me well for the 20yrs I spent at it.
If a bullet is too soft it might catch/jam feeding in a Rifle.
Mine are running a BHN11 hardness.
160gr in a 357 is getting 1297fps.
242gr in a 44 is getting 1410fps.
262gr in a 45 is getting 1130fps, the rifle is getting 1510fps.
416gr in a 45-70 is getting 1665fps.
Any help??
From the above link:
Useful Application ----------------------------------- Hardness Range
Light target loads (<800 fps and 10,000 psi) ---------- BHN 6-12
Standard revolver loads (800-1000 fps, 16,000 psi)--- BHN 8-14
+P revolver loads (1000-1200 fps, 20,000 psi)---------- BHN 10-16
Magnum revolver loads (1200-1500 fps, 35,000 psi)--- BHN 12-20
454 Casull (1400-1800 fps, 50,000 psi) ---------------- BHN 16 and up
The lower end of each of these hardness ranges will expand somewhat in each of these applications.
Harder bullets can be used, but they won’t obturate meaning that you’ll have to use a lube capable of sealing the system, since the bullet cannot contribute to this critical job.
Hard lubes probably won’t work here.
Note the recurrence of BHN 12 in many of these ranges, and remember that’s what the Oldtimers used to think of as a hard bullet. We’ll come back to this thought…
I go 12-14 BHN -- COWW + 2% tin or mix or 7# pure 3# linotype -- 12.2 bhn toss in a little more tin if you don't get good fill out
I'm shooting very light target loads with Trail Boss. The .357's are in SA revolvers and the .44 Mags are in an 1894 Marlin, so feeding should not be an issue.
I'll try some softer bullets and hope the powder coating prevents any leading, although some say a proper fit in the barrel is what really prevents leading.
This was the 44 retrieved from a dirt pile at about 30 feet.
Attachment 234502
This was the 357 retrieved from a dirt pile at about 30 feet.
Attachment 234503
I actually don't pay much attention to the "formula" floating around on bullet hardness, vs pressure vs alloy, etc.. From my experience, I have PCed bullets from my "mystery metal" which measures about 10 BHN (range lead, scrap with some ?? thrown in) and I have had no problems at all. I even used some in my 7.62x54r and Garand. I believe with PCing bullets, hardness is not as important (way less) than with nekkid lead bullets, as most of the "benefits" of PCing are due to coating/protecting the surface of the bullet...
I use the same methods and loads as I do with m plain lead bullets (some PCed are a bit faster). My revolver bullets are the same diameter as the cylinder throats or .002" over groove diameter for my semi-autos. For my rifles, I use the throat diameter and finished cartridge neck diameter as guide lines...
The point of PCing is to prevent the bullets from leading the barrel so it should not matter that much to what the hardness really is
Powder coating is realitivly new and there is still a lot to be learned about it. My thoughts and those of others, is that you should be able to reduce BHN and not have leading problems, as with exposed lead. I haven’t seen any tests done on it so my opinion is just conjecture.
My experience is limited to a newer Miroku Winchester 44 mag. I was concerned about the same thing as I had run out of COWW but have a good supply of SOWW. After getting a lot of mixed answers to the same question I decided the only way to get an answer was give it a try. My Mold is an Accurate 245 grain LRNFP mold with both plain and GC cavities. Long story short, I don't know the BHN is but I consider the bullets very soft. PC with gloss black from Powder by The Pound. Loaded at 44 Special velocities with plain based bullets I have had good accuracy and a perfect clean bore after shooting. Going to start upping velocity to see what it can do with PC. Will also try the GC version at higher velocity to see what happens. I don't see any problem with powder coated soft lead in my application so far.
I would also say I think bullet fit remains important.
PC may prevent leading with pure, but it won't do much for a case swaging a boolit down. Pure also casts a little smaller to begin with. Be sure to pull a few loaded boolits and check for size. I've shot a few thousand 38s cast from pure and PCed. Most did fine, but a few tumbled, presumably from not gripping the rifling. These were very light loads. Bumping the charge a bit might have helped obiturate the boolit a bit more, or not.
Some that I cast from 20:1 pure/tin and PCed shot the same as some from 20 lb COWW+1/2 lb Mono and powder coated. I didn’t chrono them but at Cowboy distances they seemed very similar.
"PC may prevent leading with pure, but it won't do much for a case swaging a boolit down."
A good point, I had no performance issues when using pure lead so I didn't pull a bullet and measure. I will load and pull one next time just to know. Of course it will vary depending on your components so everyone should do this with their own project. I would also add that getting good fill out was challenging with pure. It seemed to help to run things a bit hotter than normal. Anyway, adding tin would have probably made things much easier.
CAS loads can be pure lead, the vel/pressure levels are pretty low. They still need to fit though, regardless of lubed or coated.
I shot PC coated bullets in CAS using almost pure lead. I had no leading at all. I shot .45LC ,.44special, and .44-40 with almost pure lead and powder coated with no leading. 5-6gr's of Trail boss with any of the above loads. in .38 special 4gr's of TB and PC.(pure lead being any thing that floated to the top of the lead pot was taken off and disposed of.) but don't pull the PC lead bullet and expect to use it again! my inert bullet puller will expand the bullet about 4-5thousands or so. check them before you try to reload the pure lead bullets. ok, I had a problem with my dillon and I had to pull about 75 .38s. they expanded about 5 thousands after hitting the nose of the bullet puller.
If you do a proper coating and complete cure of the powder coating then it is as hard as copper. Your rifling is typically only .004" deep and the bullet is running on the polymer jacket. So to answer your question you can use pure lead if you wish. I personally cast range scrap, which runs about 10 BHN. I have fired that in excess of 3500 fps with no leading. Alloy mix is a hold over from the lube days, however it does appear a harder alloy gives better accuracy in full power PC rifle bullets.
From my personal experience, you can get away with a lot softer alloy, but I would not go just lead and tin.
Granted, my experience has been primarily with 9mm but there has been a good bit of 38 SPL thrown in. With 38 SPL, loading fairly light target loads, a mix of range scrap + 2% tin thrown in yielded fine results. Accuracy was good and no leading in two revolvers. I've sent samples off of my alloys to be tested for each of the four batches of range scrap I've "smelted/cleaned/reclaimed". It always comes back at just a tad under 1% antimony and the rest lead. It is almost exclusively jacketed pistol ammo.
With 9mm - properly fit, this mix didn't work as well. Increasing the antimony to about 3% ensured that I didn't have a leading problem, but I did find that going a bit harder improved accuracy. I tested this in an HK with polygonal rifling. Have not tested it again in a new pistol with traditional rifling. I've finally settled on an alloy of 92/5/3 - ish as I've found for 9mm, the extra hardness- even with powder coating, helps. I recognize that is heresy to some, but the targets told the tale. Likely not a concern for light 44 SPL loads.
All powder coat has been obtained from Smoke here on the forum.
All bullets were sized using the appropriate Less sizer.
If it was me, I'd g
Thanks to all. Your experience and wisdom is appreciated.