BP Brass shot shell ?? for those that load 'em

May sound like some "simple" questions but after shooting BP for 50+ years, the only thing I haven't done is load and shoot brass shotshells - I've shot a number of muzzleloading shotguns/trade guns but not being familiar with "shot shell reloading" - I want to ask before I pursue this little project.

I'm wanting to try some BP shut shells and am not looking to put a lot of $$$ into it - just for fun. Unfortunately, I don't hunt anymore and disposed of my double 16 gauge a number of years ago. Here's what I'm looking at . . .

Picking up a used single barrel 20 gauge - probably a H & R "Topper" or similar since I see them used every once in a while.

I'd like to get 50 of the brass 20 gauge shot shell hulls to use. I have reloading equipment for pistol and rifle but have no shot shell reloading equipment. That said, I figure I can pretty much make what I need to load them by hand - prime punch, primer seater, seater stem for seating wads, etc. Most likely, I'll make them to use in a drill press where I can set them up and use hand pressure to do the operations.

If some one sees a problem or issue as I go on, let me know please . . . .

The brass shot shells would be shot in just one shotgun - the single barrel. My first question is . . . do brass shot shell hulls have to be "sized" - either when they are brand new out of the box or after fired and cleaned? Or do they fire form to the shotgun chamber they are being shot in?

Primers? I'm not that familiar with shot shell primers - is there one that is preferable over another for BP shot shells? And yes, before I start this project I'll be reading up on shot shell re-loading in my loading manuals! :-)

I am assuming that some form of BP lube has to be used to keep fouling soft so is a "cake" inserted over the powder card and under a fiber wad sufficient to accomplish that? On a shotgun with BP shells, how often do you need to swab the barrel out? I realize each gun will be different as far as fouling build up but could you expect to shoot say 25 shells before running a wet patch down the bore or fewer than that?

I know that the over the shot card originally was secured with "water glass" and somewhere I read that water glass is available through ceramic hobby suppliers? Or, is there something else that is just as easy to use to swipe around the circumference of the over the shot card to secure it to the inside of the brass shell hull?

I'm not looking to use "heavy loads" - just a "comfortable load" that I could play with to see how it patterns and maybe kill a couple of clay pigeons once in a while - which with my eyesight would be just short of a miracle but when I was a kid, I loved using a double barreled ML 12 gauge that I had to shoot clay pigeons. In those days, I didn't have wads and would use newspaper wads which actually worked pretty well.

I have a flintlock "Fusil-de'Chasse" that has a 20 gauge barrel and I have taken game with that many years ago using lead shot. I use a .610 soft lead round ball out of that and if I find a single barrel 20 gauge,, I might even play with shooting some round ball loads from it. I would check the smallest size of the bore though and use the correct size ball for that to avoid trying to push a lead ball out of a smaller size muzzle. :-) For playing with RB, I think I would try and get some 1X fired paper hulls to use.

I'm also reading that a coarser grain BP seems to be the better choice? I have 2F as well as 3F but would stick with the 2F. Or, would 1F be a better choice for shot shells? I have always used DuPont/Goex over the years and I think I can get 1F from the LGS where I get my 2F/3F and 4F priming powder.

It is my understanding that for brass hulls you want to use the next size larger wads? (In my 20 gauge flintlock, I use wads/cards that I got from Circle Fly a number of years ago and I have to dig them out to see if they would work or if I would have to get different ones.)

About the largest diameter cartridge that I load with BP is the 45 Colt. On the 20 gauge, I'm thinking of introducing the powder charge by funnel with a short drop tube attached, introducing the over the powder nitro card and seating the card to give a "compressed load". I'm even thinking that a compression stem made with a compression spring might be the berries to give consistent powder compression. Then insert a lube cake and a fiber wad, seating those, pouring in shot load and then seating over shot card and then sealing it in.

Once shot is poured in, is it advisable to gently "shake" the hull to settle the shot in the hull and then seat the over the shot card or just pour it in and seat the card? Does the way this is done have any effect on "pattern"? My thoughts are that either way, upon discharge the fiber wad compresses the shot together as it travels down the barrel and pattern will be pretty much established by the muzzle bore diameter and speed at which the load leaves the barrel? Less powder charge = slower speed as opposed to larger powder charge = greater speed thus affecting pattern? But I'm not a "shot gunner" so perhaps someone could give a basic explanation?

I like playing with "historic cartridges" and just want to add a brass shot shell to say I've done it and loaded them as many would have been loaded by hand - I enjoy my old Ideal tong loaders as well as my Lyman 310 sets as well.

I did some looking to see if anyone made a "loading kit" for brass shot shells but I didn't have any luck in my search - I was thinking something like the old Lee classic loaders as far as depriving/priming punches, wad seaters, etc. If a brass hull requires "re-sizing" - can someone steer me to where I can find a fairly inexpensive one for brass shot shell hulls?

Thanks for any info and input - I know that a lot of CAS, etc. shooters load their own and many use paper or plastic hulls but I'd like to stick with the old time brass if I can. I apologize if I have posted this in the wrong section - just thought it was more appropriate in the BP cartridge than in the casting for shotgun. Probably "simple" questions but I'm sure others who are curious might get some good information out of it as well.

Thanks!

Here watch Larry load some https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI47bl2h0cU

bedbugbilly,

I don't resize my 20 or 12 gauge all-brass shot shells when reloading them with black powder. I use the circle-fly 18 gauge wads in my 20 gauge CBC shells with good results. Personally I prefer FFg Goex or 1 1/2 Fg Olde Eynsford black powder as it gives good velocity and patterns. Priming the CBC shells is a bit of a challenge at they take Large pistol primers, not #209 or Large rifle primers (too tall) Once you get that figured out you are good to go. I compress my powder charge under 2 1/8" card wads in an old MEC loader to 70 pounds pressure then load a 3/8 fiber/cushion wad, then the shot load, usually 7/8 ot 1 oz of"magnum shot". I cover this with a 18 gauge over shot wad and seal with either "white glue" or Duco cement. These shoot very well, as good as "store-bought." I clean the spent shells in soapy water then de-cap and tumble with stainless steel pins in a F.A.R.T. (don't laugh) to clean black powder residue inside and out before reloading.

Thank you! The video and curators info is a big help!

I'm in the process of setting up my new reloading area (my wife and I just moved from our home of 40 years in to a condo) and I'm looking forward to working on making some of the loading tools as much as I am in getting some loaded!

If I find that the 20 ga. brass hulls need to be sized, is there anyone making a sizing die that would go in to a single stage press? Or similar?

Thanks again - greatly appreciate the information.

Jim

Shotshells were/is loaded by the dram equivalent.
A dram is 27 1/3 grains and if you use 3 scoops/drams of powder then you load 3 scoops of shot.
In short, same volume of shot as volume of powder.

Lee makes a neat adjustable scoop that costs next to nothing:

Attachment 198435
http://leeprecision.com/adjustable-shot-dipper.html

Fouling is'nt as big a problem in a smoothbore as in a rifle so you can shoot a scattergun for a long time without wiping/cleaning.
If you end up having ample room in the case then by all means put in some lube in the system, but it's not a must.

.............Just an FYI, Ballistics Products has a manual for reloading brass hulls including the CBC/Magtech hulls, including various loads.

.............Buckshot

If you can find one of the pld Lee "whack a mole" loaders it has everything you need :)

Compression is not required just firmly seat your 1/8th thick overpowder wad set the cushion wad drop in the shot charge seat the over shot wad and seal with a drop of carpenters glue spread around the rim with you finger------DONE

you will be surprised high quality of the patterns------really a hoot in the dove fields

Dave

Back when I was loading 12 gauge brass I cut a section of dowel hollowed it out then ground an ice pic to punch out the primer. rcbs made a 12 gauge shell holder back then, don't know if they make a 20 gauge one . I would mount the shell holder in a press then use a lee ram prime to re prime . HAPPY TRAILS.

I started loading brass shot shell hulls....5-8 years ago. A few things that worked for me are; I went to waterglass to seal the over shot card. What I believe happens is, if the shells are left loaded for very long, the glue, whether Elmer's carpenter glue or Duco, dries out and if shooting in a double, combination gun or drilling, in the unfired barrel the OSC would pull, dumping the shot. I have had the OSC come loose just from handling the hulls when either glue is used. Waterglass cured that problem plus it's much tidier than either glue and quite easy to use...nor is it very expensive per shot. A quart will go a great, long way!!! Just keep it shook up as it settles and is difficult to get re-mixed.

I do like a lubed fiber wad. On a hot, dry day in my guns without a lubed wad, the fouling will build to a considerable amount and feels as hard as a brick when cleaning. With a well lubed wad I've never found a need for any kind of grease cookie.

2F is usually better as 3F has a reputation for blowing patterns. I can't say that definitively for me as I've never tried 3F in brass cases but, it, 3F has not performed well for me in muzzleloading shotguns. I don't believe 1F necessary in the 20 bore. 12 and up I do believe it would be worth trying. I don't drop tube the powder charge in shotshells. The case is so large in diameter as compared to rifle and handgun cartridges in addition to pressing in a wad column I haven't found it necessary. I set my ancient Belding & Mull powder measure to 70 grs., slightly more than the classic 2 1/2 dram, 16 bore charge and dump the charge in the case.

I have yet to find a sizing die for brass shotshells. Mine are fired in 3 different guns and I wish I could find one as opposed to keeping the hulls separate. Fired in one gun you shouldn't have to size, at least I haven't had to.

As was suggested an old Lee "whack a mole" loader will have everything you need. When loading brass hulls the only thing I use my Lee Load All for is dumping the shot. Priming can be done with a dowel that fits snugly in the case and a smooth, flat, hard surface to set the primer and hull on while driving in the primer. Seating the wad column I use the same dowel. Well.....actually I use a worn out 500 BPE case as the rim fits nicely into a 16 bore hull. I don't believe you need to do any more than just dump the shot in the hull. Sometimes I'll shake mine around a bit but that's more to get the shot level than any kind of settling. I doubt it has any effect on pattern.

For de-priming I ground down a smallish Phillips screwdriver tip until it fit into the flash hole. It takes just a bit of fiddling to get it into the hole but works fine. A block can be easily made to set the hull in for de-priming.

As with yourself I enjoy working with old, obsolete, out of production cartridges and got into the brass shot shell hulls because I wanted to use what was originally used in the old guns I have. It's been fun, more education and, as with old BP rifle cartridges, I've found the old brass hulls loaded with BP just as effective as modern stuff for my needs.

Just a word of advice from my experience. You didn't mention sporting clays but if you should undertake a course don't take your BP loads unless it's windy. I am not a good shot with a shotgun when I'm having a good day but boy, did I handicap myself using BP loads on an early spring day with high humidity and no wind. I don't remember I ever saw a second bird. A fellow shooter opined, "you don't shoot too bad if you could see the second bird"....:mrgreen: The other shooters and the young man setting the birds got a kick out of me and my loads. I figure at the least I provided some comic relief.

[QUOTE=sharps4590;4086388]

"I have yet to find a sizing die for brass shotshells."

Buffalo Arms has resizing/loading dies for all-brass shot shells. https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloadin...es?category=94

I have noted with interest the recent resurgence of the all-brass shotgun case as when I was a lad mucking about in the estuaries chucking large loads of shot at geese and stuff there were still a couple of old stalwarts using what they termed chamberless guns. These were specially built wildfowling guns that used 'thin' brass cartridge cases, similar to those available today, but the barrels were bored out to the size of the internal dimensions of the case, and therefore the wads, so that a 12 ga. gun actually had 10 ga. barrels, 10 ga had 8 ga barrels, etc.
I believe they called them chamberless due to small difference between chamber and bore size.
As I recall these guys had to reload their own and mostly (but not all) with black powder using card over powder wads and waxed felt or proprietary 'kleena' wads. They used a thin card overshot wad which they sealed with either shellac varnish that I believe is used in French polishing, and reconned worked well, or standard bath caulk. They never had to resize their cases.
I must emphasise though that these guns were bored to suit the wad diameter so would perform just like a gun of that size. They weren't pushing a 10 ga wad through a 12 ga bore barrel!
I would imagine that if you had your 20 ga single barrel bored out to 18 ga (if it would take it that is) it would be an ideal combination.

Well thanks curator!! I will check into that!!!! Boy I could sure use one!

And of course 16 ga. is out of stock so I e-mailed BACO. After seeing them I think I noticed them before but didn't want to pay for them....my how things change!

there is NO magic..................pistol primers, one size over wads, water glass or elmers white schoolhouse glue
wad pressure uniformity using doweling and a bathroom scale and off to the races...........

I use brass shells for my 24ga double.

Load with home made tools. Hardwood block with hole drilled and a punch for decapping. Flat plate for priming.

Turns out a regular 20ga plastic wad fits the shell perfectly. I do not use BP. Usually Select or Green Dot. I use the over shot card seated on the shot column. Seal it with hot glue.

It all works really well. Just remember to pick up the empties :)

TRACK OF THE WOLF, has a book on reloading brass shot gun shells that is both inexpensive and very informative.