Spencer wolf trapdoor rifle reloading method

I'm making this post to hopefully gather several different perspectives on loading the 405g style cartridge in a trapdoor with the 1879 style "buckhorn" sights.

Ive been reading his book and aquired many components, however, its been hard to find EXACTLY what he calls for.

According to Wolf, the cartridge has many intricate loading procedures that must be followed to make it shoot well due to its light weight and diameter.

In his book, he calls for the following...
-405g projectile with hollow base @20:1 to prevent bullet slump
- winchester MAGNUM primers
- enlarged flash hole w/ #41 drill bit
- case length @ 2.105
- 70g 2f compressed ~ .665
-OAL 2.54
- a tight crimp over the front driving band.

The problems......


BRASS:
I have alot of 45/70 brass. Most of which is WAY to short for this recipie @ around 2.95- 2.100. Even my new starline brass is short. I do see why this lenght is important to AVOID deformity the front driving band. But will a few thousands short do much to destroy accuracy?

PRIMERS:
.I have large pistol primers and cannot locate magnum primers. Will an enlarged flash hole and large pistol primer be sufficient to brake up the black powder cylinder? Or am I wasting precious powder and shot on this?

ALLOY:

in his book, he calls for a 20:1 for all applications except the carbine load, which can be 30:1. All I have is 30:1. Has anyone used a softer allow successfuly or is the harder stuff non negotiable?
Is it possible to get good accuracy out of a 405g HB bullet without all of these steps? If so, what are you all doing?


Back in the early 90s, components were easier to find I'm guessing ( I was 2 years old when he passed).

I'm hoping to see if there are instances where Wolf's methods have been improved on or proved unnessary. I belive his method is wonderful and very informative, however we live in different times and components difficult to procure. I'd like to find a work around on some of the steps to accurately reflect readily avaliable materials.

I do not use the 405 bullet in my 45-70 [not a TD rifle], but I am interested in how much of this list have you complied with e.g. drilled flash holes, or hollow base bullet.

Have you loaded any rounds with the components you have available?
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

I've loaded with 30:1 405gn hollow base bullets and swiss 70g 1.5fg. Larger pistol primers is all I have on hand. I have pretty good accuracy out to 150 but haven't got in tip of the sights past that

The man was struggling with literal trash gunpowder from pre-Hodgdon era. You aren't going to struggle like that unless you're working with a case of Goex older than you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SteveOKo922

I've loaded with 30:1 405gn hollow base bullets and swiss 70g 1.5fg. Larger pistol primers is all I have on hand. I have pretty good accuracy out to 150 but haven't got in tip of the sights past that

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brimstone

The man was struggling with literal trash gunpowder from pre-Hodgdon era. You aren't going to struggle like that unless you're working with a case of Goex older than you.

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Assuming your profile picture is of a ball mill, I'm assuming you know what your talking about! What was the deal with that old powder? He still reached the correct velocities. But was the initial obturating" shock" less than let's say modern swiss?

I load the 405hb using Star line brass. I don't have any problems with accuracy. I however don't shoot farther than 300 yards. I think your problem is going to be with the pistol primers. I have used pistol primers in my Browning BPCR and they will light off the powder no problem. I do enlarge my flash holes. The large pistol primer is shorter than a large rifle primer. You may have a problem with them setting back under pressure. Your TD's bolt face might not like that. They are not as hard as modern rifles.

The information in the book worked for me 30 years ago. I wouldn't sweat the case length, just trim them all the same after FL resizing.
I haven't shot the old rifle for years and now my eyes are not up to the small sights. But back in the mid 90's, I loaded, practiced and competed shooting that trapdoor "Over the course". Basically the military style of match shooting. first stage is 200 yd is 20 shots slowfire, offhand. 2nd stage is 2 strings, 200 yd, sitting (from a standing start) rapid fire, 10 shots in 60 seconds. 3rd stage is 2 strings, 300 yds prone (from a standing start) rapid fire, 10 shots in 70 seconds. 4th stage is 20 shots slow fire at 600 yds, prone. I shot a couple matches (every body else shot M1A's. AR15's, M1's). I was never good at 600, but wasn't ever competitive with the M1 either (mediocre eyes & poor wind doping skills). I did manage to get every shot away and into a scoring ring in the 600 prone slowfire and 2 & 300 rapid fire stages. I took a 1rst in one match offhand (offhand was always my strong suit). Aggregate score about 1/3 up from the bottom.
I shot that rifle a lot for 2 or three years and it would put 10 shots into 5 to 8 inch groups at 200, shooting prone with a sling (blow tubing between shots). The loads were straight out of Wolfe's book. Saying all this to say I feel that I gave the rifle and loads a serious test against obviously better technology in the hands of serious shooters. I will say they passed the test.

I've been happy with a bit of modification from Mr. Wolf's prescription. I didn't enlarge flash holes and use Remington large rifle primers as the trapdoor I'm using tends to pierce primers that are less tough than the Remington. My bunch is only shooting the trapdoors out to 500 yards so I've dropped the charge down to 66 grains (Old Eynsford 2f, but about out of that so will go to Swiss 1 1/2). Reamed my size die out to .462 so it doesn't reduce the diameter of the Lee 405 hb boolit, though I'm getting a bit of leak mess when I lube them on the old Lyman. I don't size my brass -- just bell/prime and then enough crimp to hold the boolits in with COAL of about 2.65" when crimped into the top groove. Cases all initially trimmed to 2.10".

I got a bunch of "range scrap" in ingots from a fellow castbooliter and my pencils put them at about Bhn 9. I've been using that stuff straight for my trapdoor bullets. That hardness would be about what you'd expect from 1:25 alloy.

I've only won our match once since starting shooting this load a year ago but am usually competitive, depending on whether these old eye balls are having a good day or a bad day. Before I started using the hollow base boolit I was using the regular 405 Lee flat base and I was not competitive in our shoot. But that boolit was only casting about .459 and that's a bit small for my old 1884. These hb boolits go about .460 to .461 and then that hollow base bumps 'em on up and they just seem to shoot pretty decent without lots of effort.

If your 1879 style buckhorn sights are attached to an original rifle and you’re using large pistol primers, as Forsyth mentioned, your breech face isn’t as hard as it would be on a modern rifle. The pistol primers are shorter than rifle primers and have room to accelerate upon firing and peen your breech face. A work around is to use paper between the primer and brass to offset the distance. Simply hold a strip of paper above the primer being seated and it will cut a paper disk when it goes into the brass. There’s plenty of spark to ignite the powder. The downside, as also mentioned above, is pistol primers aren’t as hard as rifle primers and you may pierce them

Steve

You might find my posts in this thread helpful and will answer many of your questions. There are numerous of my posts throughout the thread so go through the whole thread.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-and-Equipment