Feeding and Firing the 1882 Steyr "Mystery Martini-Henry"

We were discussing this gun http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...KA-WR-500-450) and it's unusual chamber dimensions, lack of any military markings or serial number, extraordinarily fine condition, and theorizing on the possibility that it was a tool-room special, maybe for an experimental cartridge development. It's basically close to the WR #2 Musket (11.43 x 60R Romanian), but with a body that's .050" smaller than standard. Indeed, the only marking on the barrel breech under the forend besides the house proof mark is " - 05 " (for -.050" ??? ). No markings except the Steyr logo and date on the left side of the receiver. Unmarked anywhere else on the receiver. If the gun was not unfired, its condition gives a mighty good impersonation of that status!

Anyhow, after much study, the closest thing I could come up with for parent brass was a box of .43 Basic Brass from Stevi Machine that I had on the shelf for maybe 30 years. Rims run about .082" thick, body about .518", and plenty of length. After searching through a bunch of oddball dies, I found that a C-H .44-95 Peabody-Martini die would form a shoulder and neck just a bit undersize. I trimmed to 2.375" with a C-H power trimmer based on the chamber cast, allowing for about .250" freebore before the very short leade and Henry rifling. The case neck is just thin enough to allow a bore diameter (.449"-.450") bullet to seat in the chamber, so I used some paper patched 450 gr .441" swaged pure lead hollow base bullets from Buffalo Arms. Patched with 9# onion skin they run about .448"-.449" and are basically a press-fit in the bore. I expanded the first half inch of the necks with a .450" expander so I could seat the PP bullets without marring.

I used Federal Magnum 215 primers, and 78gr bulk Swiss 1.5F topped with a lubed felt wad. Pressed the bullets on top of the wad and then seated to uniform depth with a .44-77 die that fit the bullet nose. Chamber neck is quite tight even with a bore diameter bullet, so I used the .44-95 P-M sizing die to squeeze the neck of the loaded cartridge just enough to allow it to chamber (basically removing the small amount of expanding that I did to seat the bullets.

I set up an N-SSA 100 yd match target (8" black bull for scale) at 100 yd. Shooting off the bench with 10 rounds.

The warrior that never went to war.

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The only markings at all on the receiver of this gun.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps3hxszw0j.jpg

Note Romanian-style rear sight with ladder extgension

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps1s4uhde2.jpg

Getting ready...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...psjbfs7iem.jpg

THIS puts the cartridge more to scale.

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Chambered (but unfired and extracted) round alongside a fired case. Note case formed in die has a bit sharper shoulder.
I set the die so the case would headspace on the shoulder in case rim thickness was inadequate, getting a slight interference fit upon closing the breech.
I won't size at all from now on due to the chamber dimensions.
Fired cases chamber and extract beautifully, with what I'd call a "brush-fit" upon closing the breech.
Also note that at this seating depth, the patched bullet lightly bears on the lands for approximately 1/4", wiping off a bit of powder fouling from the throat.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...pspvcaioct.jpg

Here's the target. Point of aim is 6 o'clock on the black. First three fired with blow tube between shots, without checking target. I started checking the target after the first three, and was noticing a bit of vertical stringing with continued blow-tube-only use, so after shot 7, I wiped with 3 spit patches, then continued to shoot the remaining three shots. I had also realized after shot 6 that the butt plate was on my shoulder joint, rather than in the "pocket", so I adjusted my hold. That pretty much moved the shots to the center of the target (left/right), with the last four going into a roughly 2" group. I bet with further load development I could shrink that, but that's a pretty pleasing result for a first outing with an unknown cartridge, cobbled ammunition, and essentially a full military load.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...psxluabrrv.jpg


It shot well enough, and fired cases look good enough, that I ran back in the house and formed and trimmed the other 10 cases from the box so I'll have 20 to mess with.

Now I've got a bunch of bullets to paper patch... :groner: ;) :smile:

Great write up. It really is in amazing condition, that bluing is superb. Did the seller have any provenance information?
Ignition and extraction were reliable?

Seller knows nothing about the gun. He thought it was a .577-450 initially. I could tell it wasn't from the photos of the breech, and I suspected it was a Romanian that had a civilian sale, lacking military markings. Nope. Much rarer. I'm pretty sure it's one of a kind. It came from an estate. Seller's trying to track down some more info, but I'm doubtful much will show up. I would love to learn where it came from and how it ended up on this side of the pond.

No wonder it appears unfired. Apparently, there wasn't any ammo produced commercially that would fit the chamber!

It sounds a bit like my Anciens Etablissements Pieper 24ga double, from an Australian auction. I think some Australian got it home before discovering something unexpected about 20ga cartridges.

Clearly you are getting the reloading right, and are likely to get it righter. But those cases sound like they were made for the Spanish Remington rounds. You said in the other thread that your chamber base diameter was .532in., and while I don't think there is any danger in fireforming a .518in. head up to that - once - it might be better to size something larger down to that figure.

There are various limited-production cases which could be used, The 10.3x60R Swiss is an uncommon item in the US, but still a current cartridge loaded by RWS in Europe, and likely to remain so, as the Swiss canton of Grisons has rather idiosyncratically made it the only cartridge allowed for big game.

https://www.huntingtons.com/store/ho...ction=0&page=3

It has a head diameter of .547in., and is both cheaper than the limited-production ones, and probably as durable as cases are made. The rim is only .619in. diameter, so you might or mightn't need a Martini extractor to convert, since this rifle is too good to modify. I think you can get one from http://www.martinihenry.org/index.ph...h=63_69&page=2

Incidentally there were now vanished 9.3x80R and 9.3x82R rounds with a .530mm. head diameter - probably a long-forgotten example of some gunsmith trying for one-way interchangeability. These may have been the origin of your mysterious cartridge. But these were combination gun or double rifle cartridges, with a shallow rim which would have been fine with a longitudinally sliding extractor, but not the Martini's hinged one.

By the way, can you find any indications that the barrel was removed? I am sure this rifle is as it came from its first owner, many years ago. But if it was someone's cartridge development rifle, the barrel may have been removed for chamber modifications, as in the Martini it has to be. If that number really means minus 05, I would have thought that it was more likely to refer to millimeters, and length to shoulder is more likely than diameter.

I don't plan to work the brass at all except to gently resize the necks, and I don't plan to shoot the gun all that much. So far, at least, I'm content with the cases I have. Also, these have a thick enough rim to work well in the chamber. I'll have to chase the other dimensions of the case you suggested. I believe I'd have to chuck that case in the lathe and turn .007"-.008" all the way around, which might weaken it beyond what benefit I'd gain from the other dimensional changes(??)

If I was planning to shoot it a lot, I'd probably have a custom sizing die made based on the chamber cast, which I've saved, but, as I said, I really just wanted to breathe life in the old boy, and do the detective work tracking down the cartridge. I did send an inquiry to Steyr-Mannlicher hoping to reach their "historian" (if such a person exists). So far no response.

FWIW, what I do for my rifles is use the CH4d bushing necksizer with interchangeable inserts - as this is a BN round, necksizing would be the only thing requited. For no.2 Musket, I also use thin-rimmed cases, but as the fireformed case will headspace on the shoulder, this is no issue..

John, if you want to try some smokeless reloads - Trail Boss is a good candidate doing the formula calculation ... http://imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

John, Nice old rifle. Glad to see that you got it shooting. I have been following both threads. I bet it would stop a deer in it's tracks! Thanks for posting this.
Bruce

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Originally Posted by John in PA

I don't plan to work the brass at all except to gently resize the necks, and I don't plan to shoot the gun all that much. So far, at least, I'm content with the cases I have. Also, these have a thick enough rim to work well in the chamber. I'll have to chase the other dimensions of the case you suggested. I believe I'd have to chuck that case in the lathe and turn .007"-.008" all the way around, which might weaken it beyond what benefit I'd gain from the other dimensional changes(??)

If I was planning to shoot it a lot, I'd probably have a custom sizing die made based on the chamber cast, which I've saved, but, as I said, I really just wanted to breathe life in the old boy, and do the detective work tracking down the cartridge. I did send an inquiry to Steyr-Mannlicher hoping to reach their "historian" (if such a person exists). So far no response.

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Then you have got it right for your purposes. For anyone who plans to do more shooting, though, the way to convert case heads which are a few thousandths larger is to make sure you size down onto the beginning of the solid head, and only then reduce the rest. Anybody with machining facilities can make and polish a simple ring die for this purpose from a ⅞ -14 UNF bolt. There are now a few reasonably common modern dies, such as the .450 Marlin, which claim a .432 head diameter, and would undoubtedly work for this. But careful measurement would be necessary before counting on it for the occasional sizing down to the head which would probably be necessary for the frequent reloader.

I wouldn't worry too much about the neck, especially if you use paper patched bullets. Some scheutzen competitive shooters used the same case for a complete match, seating the bullet quite loosely by hand, either in the case neck or in the throat of the barrel. It is also possible to close in the powder charge with a tight card wad or grease cookie and carry them that way. There is very unlikely to be anything wrong with a full case of coarse black powder for this rifle, and seating the bullet till the powder stops it should be fine.

I'm wondering if the original paper patched bullets were considerably under bore diameter? The dimensions of the neck would not allow for brass much over .008" in neck thickness to allow a .449-450" bullet to chamber. I'm thinking that they were using a pure lead PP bullet and counting on the big bump-up from the rather hefty charge of black powder.

I've got a .439" and a .446" mold for grooved bullets around 400 gr that I could cast soft (say 5% tin) and experiment without patching. At least I might use them for fireforming as there's definitely a lot of time and effort preparing the PP versions.;)

Bump to top to keep these two related threads close to each other.