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Like a lot of you, I fill the base of my Lyman Sabot Slugs with hot melt glue, and yes, it does fall out of most of them.
I got tired of trying to keep the glue in while loading.
So, I filled about 200 slugs with hot melt glue, then turned them nose down on a tray, put them in my shop toaster oven set at 230 degrees, left them for about 30 min.. Took them out and let them cool. The glue in these ain't coming out. The adhesion is awesome.
JAMES
JAMESGR
Good idea! I either pre-heat the slugs to warm them up or install a short screw so the glue has something to hold onto after it cools. Hot melt glue doesn't bond well to room temperature metal unless it is thin so warms up from the glue. Slugs have too much mass for that.
I usually use a screw in HB or plain base slugs, or in the case of Lee slugs I "rivet" the key rib over if using stock Lee slugs or add a screw if using my modified for Brenneke'izing Lee slugs... that's for adding a longer tailwad of glue to Lee slugs.
The Lyman sabot slug has such a short steep tapered cavity I am sure the glue has little chance of holding without help. Someone posted a while ago that he used a pipe tap (IIRC) to rough up the edges of the skirt inside to give the glue some texture to grip. Lots of ways of skinning this cat!
Longbow
I hope you don't think I'm stealing your thread, but I've been doing some more work with the Lyman 525 lately. Unlike you, I have not had any problems with glue falling out of the bases. I even recovered one from a black bear, and the glue was still in there, and it took some grunt with a screwdriver to get it out. Considering how much these slugs expand during firing, it is amazing. So maybe my process will allow you to try something different.
It may sound too simple, but this is how I'm having success. I first prepare a pan, anything works. I use an old cookie sheet. I lightly spray it with lube. Last time I used PB blaster since it was closest. I've only tried this at room temperature slugs, it stands to reason that the warmer they are, the better it will bond. I then take the glue gun when it is up to temp, and squirt glue into the base, being as smooth as I can to keep air out. The fill is what I find makes or breaks it. Leave a real big heap over the top. Not so much that you spill and burn yourself, but enough that a good ring squishes out in the next step. I then take that slug, usually it is in my fingers a few seconds as I orientate it, plus it allows any bubble to come to the surface, and generally gets warm indicating a good bond, then in one motion I push it base down onto that cookie sheet, and push and twist slightly. Repeat with all slugs. The key to the next step is to let them fully cool. Resist the temptation to check them early. Once cool, peel the slug off, and you will see the ring of glue. Grab it, and it tears clean off if the glue is cold. This leaves a perfectly flat glue filled base of the slug that will not fall out.
Filled bases are the only way I have got accuracy from hollow based slugs. Hot glue is by far the most user friendly way I have found to do it. The next part of the equation is getting them to expand in the bore to the right amount. While using regular lead shot wads is convenient, they are highly variable. What I'm finding is that these variables are not so detrimental with hollow based slugs because they all expand to fit. No expansion = no accuracy. For this reason you want to cast hollow based slugs as a softer alloy. Even pure lead can be a great choice. Clip on wheel weights is getting to be on the side of too hard.
Here is todays surprise, the wad fit did not matter that terribly much. I was shooting the Lyman 525, and I used a range of wads I'll get to later. I was trying out a couple Downrange wads, which I found to have phenominal consistency, but too thin. My Lyman 525 slugs were casting with the top band at about .682". In both the Downrange WAA and 12S3 clones, OD at that top band was only about .723", far smaller than my guns .731" groove diameter. On the other end was the Federal 12S4, which was the thickest, bringing the diameter to .736", depending. I found the Federal 12S4 variable, and all of them were out of round by about .005". What I found is that all of them shot pretty much the same if the slug expanded to fill the bore, kind of.
Today I was experimenting specifically on chamber pressure. I tried three powders, American Select, 800x, and bluedot, which pretty well covers the spectrum of shotgun powders from fast to slow. I went off of Lyman load data manual, picking loads that were all about the same chamber pressure, but velocities were different. I think the American Select was around 1275 fps, 800X about 1400 fps, and Bluedot 1500 fps. One would think that because chamber pressures were about the same, American Select would expand the slug the most since it had the most abrupt launch (fastest powder). What I found instead was a direct connection to velocity, not pressure. It seems it is the acceleration that matters most, not the chamber pressure. How I determined this was by recovered wads. Those fired with American Select looked almost unused only slightly sooty. They shot horribly, about 12" groups at 100 yards. The 800x looked heavily used, sometimes a petal or two had sheared off. The Bluedot loads looked a little worse yet, all of them had at least one petal missing. Despite that, both the 800x and Bluedot loads shot about the same, around 5" at 100 yards. All testing today was using my H&R Ultra Slug Hunter.
I then tried a couple other wads. One such setup I used was to remove the cushion of the wad, not something I recommend unless you know what you are doing. I cut the cup from a 12S4, and trimmed the petals to fit the slug. I then used an X12X gas seal, and a stack of hard cards under this sabot. This load shot the best of the day. Heck, it's up there as one of the better groups I've ever shot, measuring 3 1/4" at 100 yards. The difference was that this sabot came out intact. The same load with the normal 12S4 was shearing petals. With a solid card stack underneath it did not. None of the recovered wads have ever shown any indication of pushing into the base of the slug. Despite that, I know that the hot glue is not as strong as the lead skirt. With a normal lead shot wad it is going to cause the skirt to expand more than if you have a solid stack of wads. What all this means is that you have to read the wads. It seems Buckbuster got this right all those years ago. Determine your safe max load, then start low, and increase by 1 grain increments until the petals begin to shear off. Your most accurate load should be around there. You are causing that skirt to expand more and more, until the plastic of the wad can not hold it anymore.
Below is a few pictures. First is a Lyman 525, cast of 96/2/2 alloy, fired from a 16 gauge, recovered from a black bear. Note the hot glue still in the base. Next is todays best group. I don't know what the small holes are, I took this target from the garbage. That's one good thing about shotgun slugs, there's no mistaking who's holes are who's. Last but not least is a couple wads recovered from the day. The left brown wad is a cut from a Federal 12S4. It is shorter because this particular one is from an ongoing project to make an extremely low recoil slug with a Lee 7/8 oz slug. I should have saved one from the Lyman 525, I must have been too impressed with the group they shot. Unlike the Lyman, this one from the Lee shot poor, even though it started off at a healthy .738" at the widest part. I'm trying for subsonic, but with no slug expansion, they just don't shoot. The right blue wad is a Downrange WAA12 clone wad. This is one which only measured .723" at the widest, yet shot acceptably. This was a book max load, right around 11,200 psi. You can see the slug expanded so much it sheared most of the petals off. If you look closer you will see a line about 3/16" from the top. This line is from the slugs top band, which started just under the top of the wad before firing. During firing, this slug is shortening considerably, and expanding the hollow base, which is shearing the petals. The petals are shearing at about the center point of the skirt. I did not recover any slugs today, but I would fully expect them to look just like the one fired from the 16 gauge. For the record, the 16 gauge is a smooth bore, and it shoots that goofy slug amazingly well.
https://i.ibb.co/LnTtJFN/20210902-220753.jpg
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Actually I'm going to add one more picture. This is a brand new cast Lyman 525 next to that fired and recovered one from a 16 gauge. That is how you want your slugs to look if shooting for accuracy.
https://i.ibb.co/b3dtDvs/20210903-202747.jpg
I forgot to mention that I cast those slugs I shot today of range scrap which is slightly softer than clip on wheel weights, but not by much. Next in line I have some cast of pure lead to see if my theories play out.
I never had to fill the bases of mine. Here’s a 50 yard group:
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Have you tried it though?
I did once. Only remarkable thing I can remember is those loads being overpressured because I didn’t account for the added weight the glue added.Quote:
Originally Posted by megasupermagnum
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I find it hard to believe the added weight of glue would be enough to cause over pressure, it can't be more than a few grains... but I'll check.
What I can imagine is if the slugs are soft and they obturate in the hull/chamber then hit the forcing cone that they might not squeeze back down as easily as an unfilled slug. I have related my bad experience with a blown up shotgun several times and that is one of the causes I blame... filled slug obturating in the chamber (which I know it did) then not being able to squeeze down fast enough.
Not questioning your comment about being over pressure but the cause of being over pressure.
Longbow
The glue adds 7-8 grains. It did not cause any over pressure.
Didn’t think of that. Maybe that’s what happened. I remember one shot pushing the primer out and the other hull got stuck in the chamber. Had to pop it out with my truck antenna.Quote:
Originally Posted by longbow
What alloy are y’all casting these slugs with, COWW or soft lead?
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I'm trying both alloys. The weather has been so variable the past two weeks, so I have no idea when I will get to test next. My plan is to show what happens to wads with pure lead, and range scrap. I will say this about my testing with both as-cast, and hot glue filled slugs. I had decent accuracy with as-cast slugs in 16 gauge, but you could see the domed wads indicating they were pushing into the base. Accuracy improved with filled bases, and wads showed zero deformation. I've found in 12 gauge with a lead shot wad, the issue is even more pronounced. If you are happy with what you have, and that is a good group, then no worries. I'm trying to push beyond that. This is the first time I'm seeing promise for a slug to beat a round ball for accuracy without other huge costs. And one slug works in two gauges no less.
In the case of my blow up the slug was a Lyman Foster cast of pure lead and cavity filled with cornmeal.
The remains of the chamber showed lead streaks from hull mouth through forcing cone and into barrel.
I know soft lead slugs will obturate to fill the bore but in this case the slug obturated to fill the chamber.
There were other issues at work here too but my take is that the filled slug obturate leaving a short hull (2 1/2" IIRC) in a 3" chamber then met the forcing cone and didn't want to squeeze down easily.
Heat treated wheelweight HB slugs do not seem to obturate or crush/distort but I have seen skirt collapse and distortion in ACWW slugs even with heavy skirts. If they expand before entering the bore it could result in a pressure spike.
Something to be aware of.
Longbow
That is something I can check with Pressure Trace when things warm up, but I'm guessing I wont see much with a wad slug like this. The frail plastic wad is kind of a pressure relief. That and all evidence I've seen up to this point indicates the slugs are not expanding in the chamber. If they were, higher pressure loads would be expanding them more. Instead an 8,000 psi bluedot load is showing considerably more deformation than a 11,000 psi American Select load.Quote:
Originally Posted by longbow
Here’s what my wads look like. Now keep in mind this isn’t a super fast load. Running about 1250-1300 fps with 25 grs of Herco. Is your dooming worse than this? Despite the conditions of these wads, four shots touching at 50 yards and about 4” at hundred. Only shoot them at 100 yards once. Need to got back and revisit that load at that distance.
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I haven't had any trouble with wad slugs re over pressure. I'm assuming that the cushion leg reduces initial acceleration/obturation.
I have had wads distort into unfilled HB slug cavities sometimes jamming the wad in or the doming causing skirt distortion (belling). I've also had wads pucker up around the "key" in Lee Drive Key slugs with some wads remaining attached and some cracking where they puckered. It may at least partly depend on cushion leg design and thickness of the bottom of the shotcup.
I normally fill all Foster style HB slugs with hot melt glue to prevent wads pushing into the cavity and for Lee slugs I put a 16 ga. card wad under... a nitro card wad works well and is quicker and easier than filling Lee slugs.
Longbow
It's really hard to see from that picture. I will say it looks like you have it dialed in pretty good. The petals are just barely holding in there, which is great. A factor that might be worth considering is that without glue, they expand more readily, and it appears you get better results at lower velocities. There's so many factors, and not enough time to try them all.