I am considering obtaining a mold for Keith-pattern SWC 230 grain bullets to load in .45ACP brass for use in revolvers of that caliber. I am thinking a taper crimp on the forward driving band would be appropriate, since the cartridge headspaces on the case mouth. I'd be curious to hear comments from anyone has produced such ammunition.
(I am aware.45 Auto rim brass would allow of a roll crimp--but I want to use .45ACP brass) TIA
I load for a 1917 with an NOE 454-250 basically a 250 gr version of the Keith 454424 . This worked fine in the Colts 1917 and High Point carbine . The S&W didn't like it.
All 3 work well with the H&G #130 and RCBS 45-200 SWC both 200 gr .
The 228-453 NEI recently acquired works well in the S&W both the 45 ACP/AR and the one modified to 45 Schofield.
5.5 gr Unique for the 250s , 6.0 230&200s .
Groups for any of the 4 bullets and 3 revolvers hover around 5" at 25yd . A 7.5" BlackHawk does about 3" but needs a .454 .
For my S&W 25-2 .45 I shoot the 200 gr SWC Boolits with a slight roll crimp.
I just do not shoot them in my .45 autos.
The revolver used a half moon or Full Moon clip.
So they are not headspacing on the case neck.
I also shoot the .45 AR.
Those I use a 265 gr RFN powder coated slug that is crimped because of the rounds heavier recoil with the load I use.
While not exactly the same bullet, I have shot well north of 1000 rounds of these
https://bayoubullets.net/45-acp-225-gr-tc/
with a pretty stiff charge of Sport Pistol out of my S&W 625 with nothing more than a taper crimp and never had a problem. I use this load both in my Glock and my 625. Before this bullet, I used a 200 Gr RNFP, again with nothing more than a taper crimp with no problems. I do taper crimp in a separate step though.
In my .45 ACP revolvers I do use a roll crimp to avoid inertial dislodgement. I use a Redding Profile Crimp die for .45 Auto Rim and had this shortened so that it could be used for the .455 Mk2 Starline brass. I use the Accurate 45-264H bullet of my design loading 3.5 grains of Bullseye in .455 Mk2, 4 grains in the longer .88" length .455 Eley and 4.2 grains in the .45 Auto Rim.
Attachment 317654
I.also load this bullet with 6.5 grains of Bullseye in the .45 Colt for my 1920 New Service.
Didn’t the original .45ACP cast boolits actually include a crimp groove? I remember reading that here a while back. If so, look at the RCBS 45-230-CM.
My only experience along these lines was with a Keith 452-423 in 45 ACP with half moon clips in my Mk VI commercial Webley. 4.3 grains of Bullseye grouped well, at least for that revolver. I crimped mine in the crimping groove. I later switched to the RCBS 45-230 CM in AR cases, because life's too short to cast with single cavity molds, and the moon clips were/are a pain.
For my Blackhawk 45 LC/45 ACP I use the exact same 45 ACP ammo I load for my auto's. For 45 ACP I use a Lee taper crimp die and use 1/2 turn crimp. Frankly, I never considered that there might be an issue.... and there hasn't been.
Well, a Blackhawk or similar single action will headspace on the case mouth. Most of the 1917 pattern revolvers CAN do this (although you'll be poking the brass out with a stick), but some of the earlier ones have bored-through cylinders that require the moon clips to headspace at all. A roll crimp could be problematic in any of the systems you're planning to use the case mouth as your stop surfaceQuote:
Originally Posted by El Bibliotecario
I would not be too concerned about recoil pulling bullets out of a taper crimp. Unless it's one of the scandium Smiths, most of these are pretty heavy guns without a great deal of kick from the load, and most of the cylinders are .45 Colt length, so it would have to pull a lot in six rounds for it to become a functional problem of tying up the gun with a protruding bullet. If in doubt, measure the COAL of the round in your #6 chamber, fire #1 through #5, then take out #6 and measure it again. Maybe even go so far as to subject it to several trips around that carousel to dispel any apprehension.
I'm not aware of any reports of recoil pulling bullets from GI hardball rounds back in the day. With cast, you'll be starting with a bullet .001"-.002" fatter and taper crimping to the same .473" outside mouth diameter. Should be plenty tight enough for 800 fps loads.
I've been shooting 45 ACP cartridges in S&W and Colt M1917s and a Couple S&W M25s along with a 45 ACP cylinder in my Uberti "Evil Roy" SA for many years. I shoot different lubed cast bullets these days [found no real need for 250+ gr SWCs in the 45 ACP cartridge] of 190 - 235 gr in acural cast weight. I've found a normal taper crimp is all that is needed with target level up through +P loads. That way the loads can be used in my M1911s, my Contender, my Rhineland conversion M98 Mauser, my SA and in my S&W M17/25 with or w/o half or full moon clips. y most often cast bullets loaded of all are the Lyman 452374, The Lee 4520200-SWC and the Lee 452-230-TC all loaded over 5 gr of Bullseye.
For a heavy load for use in M25s, Ruger BHs w/ACP cylinder and my Conder I use a Lyman GC'd 452490 which cast of 30-1 ally runs 245 gr fully dressed. I seat those with that case mouth taper crimped on the middle of the front drive band. Loaded over 7.5 gr Unique they run 1000 fps out of a 6 1/2" barreled M25. I've not cast any of those for years so haven't pressure tested that load so be aware of that.
You will want to check for fitment in the cylinder throats. If you can size to a slip fit with your fingers that works great. Usually. Some of the older guns have HUGE throats, and you would definitely want a boolit cast large enough that you can fill the throats with them. A lot of old Smiths have .454" and .456" throats, they will perform poorly with .452" boolits.
On the other hand, an old 455 Webley may have .449" throats and a .455" groove in the barrel, so be fore warned to check sizes before you get in too deep.
The Uberti in my avatar photo has .4565" throats from the factory, and a typical .451" barrel. I size to .456" and it's a great shooter, accurate, and I never have to clean the barrel.
I've only loaded 45 ACP for my Smith Model 37 and Model 25-2. Both of those require the use of full moon clips in order to headspace off the rim. What kind of revolver do you have? I have been happy with 5.1 Grains of Unique under a 230 grain lead bullet.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Bibliotecario
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall
I am not sure what you mean by you load 45 ACP for a Smith Model 37? The Model 37 is a variation of the Chief’s Special, a 5 shot revolver chambered for the 38 S&W Special.
A Model 25-2 is the heavy barreled target revolver chambered for the 45 ACP and was designed to headspace on the case MOUTH as were all the previous ACP models. The moon clips were designed to allow the extractor a way to remove the cartridges from the chambers. The Model 1917 came about when S&W realized that if the US entered WWI, Colt could not produce enough of the Model 1911. So they designed a revolver around the 45 ACP. Actually, they modified the 455 Hand Ejector Second Model. It was relatively easy to design a revolver to fire the cartridge. The Army specified the cartridge headspace on the case mouth and had design specifications in place. The hard part was figuring out how to get the extractor to work on the rimless case. S&W came up with two solutions, a half moon clip and a full moon clip. The Army selected the 1/2 moon clip. S&W wisely allowed Colt to use the clip for their revolvers. Colt revolvers were the only Model 1917s that NEEDED the clips to fire as they bored their cylinders a uniform diameter the length of the cylinder. This was only on the early revolvers and the Army required them to use the S&W system and replace as many of the bored through chambers as they could.
So, since 1917, S&W revolvers have been built to headspace on the case mouth.
Kevin
I load for a few different S&W ACP revolvers. One of the boolits used is a Group Buy copy of the Lyman 453423. I use a taper crimp. I have loaded the 454524 and use a taper crimp for the also. My favorite boolit for the ACP revolver is the SAECO 453, a 235 grain full wadcutter, again, with a taper crimp.
The 453 and the 453423 are both loaded over hardball doses of powder.
Kevin
A lot depends on the weight of the revolver. A cut down 1917 with a 3 1/2" barrel will pull bullets that a 625-8PC won't.
My Model 1917 with the barrel cut to 4” weighs 35.5 ounces, empty. No problem with taper crimped bullets. 235 grain at hardball speeds.
But, it is not just the crimp. One needs to resize the brass so it has a tight grip on the boolit before the crimp is applied. I am not sure the crimp is actually needed, in civilian loads.
Kevin
What he said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Shot
In my 625s I haven't used anything over 230 grs. Anything heavier wouldn't fit in the chambers they would either be too long or have a case bulge if seated to fit the chambers. I use both 45 auto and 45 AR brass.