38 Long Colt bullet question

I load a lot of .38 LC just for plinking out of my .38 Specials. While loading the other day, I got to thinking about whether a load could be developed for the Long Colt that, even though not as a primary defensive load, could possibly be effective in that role if the need arose.

The Long Colt is basically a twin of a .38 Special HBWC load, and people have been using those for defense. I suppose I could load WC bullets In the LC cases to .38 Special length, but that would essentially be a .38 Special cartridge. Would a 158 gr LSWC or a Keith cast bullet be the best option?

Let me reiterate that I’m not loading a primary SD round. My only interest would be that if I’m already hand loading, why not use a bullet that could be used effectively rather than a round nose bullet.

I have some 38 Long Colt brass that I occasionally use in my 38 Special. I use all my standard 38 Special loads with the brass. The thing to remember is that you have to stick to the COL you use for 38 Special so that you do not increase the pressure. This will mean less of the bullet is inside the case, but the pressure space will be the same as it was with the 38 Special brass.

I load both 38 Colt shot and long - a 120ish grain in the short and the same or a 150ish grain in the long.

I understand why you are mulling over but I question if you would gain anything. For SD rounds, I stick with 38 spl. with a 160 grain lead WC seated to the same depth as I would seat a 160 grain RN or SWC with the same powder charge, and I crimp on one of the lower rings on the WC.

i'm guessing you are using around 2.7 grains of BE or similar for your 38 Longs with a RN - so the same load as many of the 38 special WCs are loaded at. However, if you load a 38 spl. casing with something like the usual 2.7 grains of BE - the WC is usually seated flush or nearly so. If you did the same, only with a 158 grain WC in a 38 Long - you are using a heavier boolit (heavier than a 148 grain HBWC) so you would have a bullet a tad heavier and less case volume in the 38 Long - equal to more pressure. You could seat it out to the normal length of a RN in the Long and still be able to keep around your normal 38 Long powder charge.

I'm just thinking off the top of my head here - I don't have a crony or have I played with a HBWC in a 38 Colt Long - I will be shortly though as I have a new 1858 Remington with a conversion cylinder and will also be loading 150 grain heeled boolits in that casing.

Unfortunately, there is not a lot of good loading data out there on the 38 Colt Short and Long. I plink with both the short and long and have taken woodchucks, raccoons, etc. with the 38 Colt Longs that I load and they worked well on animals like that. Would I use a 38 Colt Long for self defense? I would prefer a 38 special but if all I had was a 38 Colt Long then of c9urse I would. But, in the early 1900s the military deemed it as being an underpowered cartridge - somethingng that was learned the hard way through actual use.

Personally, I really like loading and shooting the 38 Colt Short and Long - both historical cartridges and fun to plink with out of all of my 38s and 357s. I enjoy the 38 Short out of my Uberti 1851 Navy R & M open top conversion.

Just keep in mind your bullet weight, seeing depth and case volume and play with it and see how it works. Start low and work up and maybe tru some penetration tests through some boards stacked and see what your results are. That should show you what your load is capable of and if you would carry the round for SD or rather go to the 38 Speial casing for a bit more added "oomph".

Please post your results as it would be interesting to see what you come up with. Good luck, be safe and have fun!

I may have been unclear about my motives. I don’t, and don’t intend to carry a .38 LC cartridge for SD. What I’m asking is if a low power cartridge like this (150-158 gr @ 650-700 FPS) were to have to be used as such, what type bullet would be best to use?

If you hand load you can load any bullet style you want in the 38 Long .
I like designs that do not have a round nose . Cast , solid base , SWC and WC designs would be my first choice .
Solid base cast wadcutters can be quite effective . My last mould was a NOE solid base WC design for 41 Magnum ...good boolit!
Either design at 700 fps would be a slight improvement over a round nose design ...
Gary

I'd rely on a WC design, to get maximum crush effect. At the low velocities that are appropriate for these cartridges, HP's and soft points are pretty much no better than an RNFP. A SWC design might have some utility, but we are not talking about maximum velocities.

I would load a SWC. Velocity will be too low for expansion. A WC punches a bit harder but gives up range, too, and since you're not looking for or expecting to use it for defense, having the extra range flexibility would be useful to me.

It was the .38 Long Colt's disastrous performance as a fight-stopper in the Philippine Insurrection that eventually lead to the adoption of the .45 Automatic as the U.S. Service pistol. The "Moro" Krissmen, often geeked up on opium hashish and "Allah", would absorb several shots from rifles and revolvers on the way to hacking U.S. soldiers to death, before succumbing to their wounds. Apparently the only "SURE" stops on them were a bullet to the head, or a shotgun shell full of buckshot.
If memory serves, the old factory load was 130 gr LRN at 730 f/s. If one was pressed to use such a firearm for defense, I'd be tempted to recommend a 148 gr. hollow-based wadcutter over a max charge of Unique. I'd also be tempted to load half the HBWCs INVERTED, and alternate them in the cylinder with properly-loaded WCs.
Because the ballistics are poor, the marksmanship must be very good. Think in terms of one in the chest & one in the head.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Flintstone

I may have been unclear about my motives. I don’t, and don’t intend to carry a .38 LC cartridge for SD. What I’m asking is if a low power cartridge like this (150-158 gr @ 650-700 FPS) were to have to be used as such, what type bullet would be best to use?

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I load mostly for cowboy action and just simple plinking. Some bullets are lead, round nose flat points, and some are lead, round nose. If push comes to shove, I would not hesitate to use ANY of those for self defense.

If push comes to shove, I wouldn't hesitate to use a .32 ACP and my pocket knife, for self defense, but neither would be ideal. ANY gun is better than NO gun, but I don't think any of the old .38s can be resurrected into decent defensive rounds.
I reiterate my inclination, that I would load equal numbers of inverted and non-inverted 148gr. HBWCs over a max charge (that is safe for the revolver) of Unique, and alternate them in the cylinder, when loading.

I guess it comes down to stopping power, or going for the kill with the first shot.

Mr. Flintstone - I obviously misunderstood what you wee looking for so apologize for that.

As far as determining the "best bullet" to load for a SD round in a 38 Long Colt - you'll get as many answers and ideas in regards to that as you would by asking which is the best flavor of ice cream. The only way you are going to determine that is by actually trying out different boolit designs and weights. In the end . . . the "best" bullet in a SD situation is the one that is currently in your weapon at theme of the incident - regardless of caliber or boolit design/weight.

I did some looking to see if I could find any write ups where someone has compared bullet desgins in a 38 Long as far as penetration testing and I didn't find much. Maybe someone here has tried different designs the the 38 Long and can post their findings?

I still think that the only way to know is to load up some with the different bullet designs/weights and try and do a fairly consistent test to see penetration and expansion. The thing to remember is that usually "self defense" range is considered 21 feet or less - anything more and they consider "flight" as being the best option. If you are looking for a boleti design that works best for your plinking/target shooting - and for me (possibly not you), that would be out to 50 yards or a little further, what works well at the 21 foot SD distance may not work well at your other shooting distances so it might be a compromise coming down to the design that works best at both distances.

Originally, the 38 Colt Long cartridge was a black powder cartridge (utilized by the military) that used a 150 grain RN lead "heeled" bullet that produced around 707 fps. This is the same cartridge deemed underpowered by the military which Kosh75287 talks about. I knew a woman whose father was a doctor int he Army during the Philippine Insurrection. I have here her relate the story many times of how her father was in his tent and one of the "natives" attacked him. Even though he was technically a "non-combatant", he carried a military issue 38 revolver and when attacked, he was able to get the revolver and shoot the native five times - and even after five shots the native kept attacking him. And keep in mind his five shots were at close range. The ruckus was evidently heard by a nearby solder who heard the shots and he and another solder came to his rescue and the native was "dispatched" by the use of their rifles - 30/40 Krags.

When the 38 Long Colt cartridge transformed into a smokeless round, the two common lead bullets were either a 125 grain RN or a 150 grain RN - .357 - .358 in diameter to fit the .357 standardized bores of the 38 revolvers being produced (unlike the earlier Colt military revolvers which had a larger bore requiring a heeled bullet). Velocity of the 125 grain bullet was around 772 fps and the 150 grain bullet at around 777 fps - so a tad faster than the original black powder 38 Long Colt with heeled bullet at around 707 fps.

Like I mentioned above, I don’t look at the .38 Long Colt as a primary SD platform. However, it is very nearly the ballistic twin of the .38 S&W. The Long Colt doesn’t appear to be a SAAMI specification, but the data I have found limits it at 12,000 CUP. The Smith & Wesson is limited to 13,000 CUP. They both use similarly sized bullets, and load data (in newer manuals) puts velocities at about 770 FPS for the Long Colt, and about 800 FPS for the Smith & Wesson; both with 150 grain bullets.

The .38 S&W has historically been accepted (and typically still is) as a marginally effective SD round, but the .38 LC has been looked upon with disdain, and has been pretty much relegated to being a historic novelty. If load data had been available in a wider variety of powders and bullet sizes, then the Long Colt may have actually found a place in the spectrum of available ammo choices. Of course, in modern revolvers, the Long Colt can be loaded up to .357 magnum levels (depending on the gun it’s used in), but then it would no longer be a true Long Colt cartridge.

If memory serves, part of what earned the .38 S&W any reputation as a fight stopper was its British loading (.38/200, or something similar), as adopted by the Army. The round had a 200 gr. "gum-drop" shaped projectile that was stable in flight, but was so tail-happy that it tended to yaw and keyhole when encountering significant resistance. The "keyhole" effect, even with a projectile traveling less than 600 f/s, was significant, apparently, and found favour with the Brits.
The 146 gr. LRN load of the U.S. variety had no such terminal behaviour. The reputation that the .38 S&W has a a "minimum satisfactory" fight stopper may have more to do with the British loading than with the U.S. variant.

Until I see a lot more information to the contrary, the minimum satisfactory load(s) from the .38 caliber rounds will be 160 gr. flat-nosed or SWC, at 1000 f/s, at least for me. A 170 gr. slug @ 950 f/s or a 200 gr. at 800 f/s SHOULD be roughly equivalent, ignoring penetration constraints. These ballistics are BARELY obtainable from a .38 Special, loaded to +P pressures, and fired from a 6" barrel. All the smaller .38s fall by the wayside, quickly.

Dear Mr. Flintstone,

Why not give the Lee 358-125-RF "cowboy" bullet a try. As far as self-defense is concerned, this bullet's substantial meplat would seemingly be a better "stopper" than a purely round-nosed bullet, and would probably be more accurate than a wadcutter if your plinking ever takes you out beyond 50 yards or so.

I haven't used the Lee bullet in the .38 Long Colt, but it suits me fine in .38 Special/.357 Magnum revolvers and the 9 Luger pistol.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --