What cartridges need a WIN 94 BB action?

Hi, guys I was wondering what cases you could get away with in a WIN 94 standard action.

I am going to have my big bore rebarreled to 356w. But I also have a standard 94 sat there with a worn out barrel!

Now I would not dream of putting the 307w 356w or 375w into a standard action, they are 52,000 psi at the hot end and that is lot of heat for a standard 94; but the 444 marlin or more specifically a 2" version of or my proposed 408-444 x 2" wildcat wouldn't run higher than 42,000 psi which is a hot 30-30 load!

I am never running my lever loads anywhere near the very top, probably between 15-30k psi.

Would a standard 94 be able to safely take a slightly shorter version of the 444 marlin? When Winchester chambered for 444 marlin did they use standard or bb action?

One more consideration, beyond the pressure would be, that the barrel shank of the standard 94 is smaller than the bb does a 444 marlin take too much metal out. I am not sure it seems the 44mag is okay and that takes some more out of shank than a 30-30 case??

To add further to my confusion it seems from a bit of research Winchester used a BB for the 444 marlin, but then used a normal 94 for its big brother the 450 marlin?????


Logic is telling me that if the larger 450 marlin, operated at the same pressure as the 444 and took a further 50 thousands out of the barrel shank, and had a bigger area on the bolt face does not destroy standard 94 actions that a 444 shouldn't!

So did Winchester just use the BB for the 444 because they had lots of actions left over from the poor sales of the 307, 356 and 375 and by 1998 with the 450 they had long since been used up? Did they decided that the BB was overkill? Or was the BB a bit of a marketing ploy to really emphasis how much hotter/more powerful the 307, 356 and 375 were over the typical lever offerings?

Is the standard John Browning design from the 1890s strong enough to handle the 52,000, maybe, it certainly good for the upper 40s it would seem.

If I had a choice of course I would choose to have more metal around the barrel shank and locking lugs but is it needed?

My opinion is that for me the 444 2" or 408-444 2" would be just fine, but I know I will never be loading hot or using jacketed bullets in it. So it is probably a goer for me, but not necessarily one to sell on.

What are your opinions?

I'm not sure what you can push a regular 94 up to, but if it was MY noggin' 6-8 inches away from where all that production was happening I would err on the side of safety. Might I recommend a 38-55 in your regular barrel? It's a lower pressure cartridge that works just fine in a 94 action. I have 7 BB's in 307, 356 and 375, and they are pretty stout. The 307 and 356 barrels are slightly heavier also, but not the 375. Were they a sales gimmick? Again, I don't know, but I will take Winchester at their word that the receiver had to be beefed up and I'm inclined to be thankful for it every time I touch one off. Regards, 021

Andy

The SAAMI MAP for the 30-30 is 42,000 psi and for CIP it is 46,000 psi; both with peizo-transducer measurement. SAAMI doesn't list a peizo-transducer MAP for the 307W or the 356W but CIP lists them at 60,000 psi. A lot of difference.


I've been contemplating re-chambering my 24" barreled M94AE 30-30 to 307W. The idea is not to shoot 307W level loads in it but to allow the use of more LeveRevolution and other slower burning powders. Thus with the larger capacity velocity can be increased a bit while maintain psi's under the SAAMI MAP. But then I can measure the psi in my M94AE and keep a handle on it.

In duplicating the Hornady factory LeveRevolution 30-30 load with LeveRevolution powder under the 160 gr FlexTip bullet a 100% density load gives 2452 fps at only a measured 37k psi. Thus, the larger 307W case could probably get me 2600 - 2700 fps while maintaining not more than a 42,000 psi MAP. I so far haven't found the 30-30 LeveRevolution load wanting so I ask myself.....do I really need to rechamber? So far I haven't come up with sufficient justification. Not trying to talk you out of anything, just stating my train of thought.

Larry Gibson

A rimmed .300 Savage 'Long Neck' with a 2 inch overall case length would allow standard tooling and reformed .307 or 444 cases to be used while keeping the factory 307 Winchester from chambering. Case capacity is very close to the 307. Slightly longer neck and sharper shoulder would be an advantage.

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Originally Posted by MostlyLeverGuns

A rimmed .300 Savage 'Long Neck' with a 2 inch overall case length would allow standard tooling and reformed .307 or 444 cases to be used while keeping the factory 307 Winchester from chambering. Case capacity is very close to the 307. Slightly longer neck and sharper shoulder would be an advantage.

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Without checking it sounds like you just described a .303 Savage case???

Guys I waffle too long.

The 307 and 356 I would not put on a standard 94 pressure is higher than a 30-30! But what about a dwarf 444.?

Why not just chamber for 445 Super Mag then?

The thought had crossed my mind and it seems like it would be a great rifle cartridge! I would have to get the smith tomake custom cartridges guides i think! The 44mag and 444 marlin ones may not work, can anyone chime in on that?

The .303 Savage has a much smaller capacity and quite different dimensions than the 300 Savage. The 300 Savage has about 5% less capacity than the 308 Win. The 303 Savage is about the same as a 30-30. They are very different.

Andy -

Howdy !

You can successfully short chamber w/ bottle neck cartridge cases; too.

In a M-336, one possible mod would be to run a fore-shortened .35 Remington case; cut-off @ the base of the shoulder.
This new wildcat case would have 1.538" oal, and would be a nominal .40 caliber ( based on the Remington .35 Rem case
I used as a test article ). ( This case would be a tad longer than something like a 6BR ).

The stock bolt face, extractor, lifter, ejector, and magazine tube would all be retained; which portend minimized cartridge feeding problems.

That is one theoretical example.


With regards,
357Mag

One on the last M94 chamberings was for the 7-30 Waters. It was based on the 30-30 case but was rated at 50,000 psi. I suspect a late manufacture M94 action contemporary with the 7-30 Waters guns would be capable of handling the same pressures though there really is no need to go that high to achieve improved ballistics with the wide variety of powders available today.

How about a 38 55 ?

Or a .375 - stamp the barrel .38-50 or somesuch and load the .375 to safe reg 94 levels?

Just kidding. Have JES turn it into a 38-55. It can be loaded up to elk hunting levels or down to rat shot.

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Originally Posted by andym79

The thought had crossed my mind and it seems like it would be a great rifle cartridge! I would have to get the smith tomake custom cartridges guides i think! The 44mag and 444 marlin ones may not work, can anyone chime in on that?

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Out of all that I have read with in these WC the .44 re chambered ..444 to a 2.080 CL would stay well with in the safty CUP of the 94 post levers!!
even the 1894 actions if your not loading for over the Moon shots !!!

My 2 .44-56WC or .44VHS are doing great with the powder I've used ! Safety Always First!!!!! My Old Winchesters.1894s should be left alone but
to get them back shooting means more than a dust collector!!!! If I was to do more I would use the post 94s about the 1970s !!!!
Ive been following these loads and working my way up !!
Attachment 190920Attachment 190921Attachment 190922

I should be able to get these on paper tomorrow 100yds should be good !! :-) :-)

Ol Deuce

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andym79

Hi, guys I was wondering what cases you could get away with in a WIN 94 standard action.

I am going to have my big bore rebarreled to 356w. But I also have a standard 94 sat there with a worn out barrel!

What are your opinions?

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Look up William Iorg over on Paco Kelly's leverguns site. Ask him that question. Since, IIRC he was in on the development of the 375Win, and blew up a few regular 94s and Marlin 336s in getting there, I'll bet dollars to donuts that he'll have some relatively eye opening tidbits for ya!

WoW Griff that would be some good info on what they went through!!!!! Ol Deuce