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I have a Webley .455 I would love to be able to try out the famous "manstopper" bullet in, but they are a hollow base hollow point.
MP molds makes a manstopper copy that is just a hollow base wadcutter effectively, is there a way to swage a hollow point into it? Without buying a ton of gear preferably, if some sort of custom die is required that wouldn't be too bad.
It would take a swaging die with both a hollow base punch and a hollow point punch, so both ends could be swaged at the same time. I have hollow base swaging dies for .38 HBWC bullets, but it's a flat point design, as is common with HBWC bullets.
Hope this helps.
Fred
The mold casts bullets as a hollow base already, but I guess the die would need both ends or it would just flatten out the hollow base. Is there someplace I could have that die made? Is it the kind of thing I can screw into my rockchucker to use?
Dave Corbin
http://www.corbins.com/
Since the parent bullet already has a hollow base, the base pin for the swaging die would just need to be that shape, in order to keep the hollow base from collapsing. The nose pin would be a hollow point pin, which is simple to make, once you have the proper diameter swaging die, with the proper nose shape. If you lube the bullets prior to swaging, the lube will stay in the lube groove(s) and hold them open while forming the hollowpoint. This would be an easy job for a Rockchucker press, especially if the bullets were cast from a rather soft alloy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanka16
Hope this helps.
Fred
That helps greatly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloaderFred
I do use very soft alloy for any Webley bullets so that gives me hope.
I had a look around the Corbin website and it's a mess, lol. I didn't find anything that could be what I need but I don't know what I'm really looking for either. I suspect I'll have to send him an email to order what I need.
I also suspect that I will need some measurements for the bullets, which I don't yet have as Miha hasn't restocked that mold yet, so I think I'll wait until I get the mold and get some bullets cast to inquire about a die.
Now that I know this is a doable project I'll commit to ordering a mold when one is available. Thanks guys!
Another way to do what you're wanting would be to just drill the hollowpoint. What it takes to get them concentric is a tapered cone to fit over the nose of the bullet, with the appropriate size hole drilled top dead center for the hollowpoint drill bit. Someone used to make that setup for doing .38's, etc., on a drill press. It seems like it was Forster, but my memory isn't what it used to be. For simplicity, it was designed to be used on loaded ammunition, since it makes holding the bullet easier while it's being drilled, and you used the stop on the drill press to set the depth. I think I've also seen one that had a stop collar on the drill bit for setting the depth.
I do have a similar setup for making loaded .22 bullets HP, but I've never found the need to use it.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Give Dave a call. He usually picks up the phone himself and is very willing to talk with you. Tell him what you want and he will tell you if it is feasible. I do believe a single die set with the punches you want would probably run between $200.00 and $300.00, minimum.Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanka16
I did a quick search and found that Forster still makes the hollow point tool. It's $30.00, and available with either 1/16" or 1/8" drills. This might be a cheaper way for "proof of concept" work before investing in swaging dies.
Here's the link to the tool: https://www.forsterproducts.com/prod...-pointer-kits/
Hope this helps.
Fred
$300 for what it is basically just for fun is a hefty amount. I think I will give the forster tool a try first. I can use it on the mk ii bullets I already have and see what happens. Then maybe invest in the proper tooling later. Thanks.
I use a forester hp tool to make hb hp bullets, own 2 of them buying both off of ebay cheap. 1 came with the hp tooling and a bunch of other accessories. Yes the tooling has a 1/16" & 1/8" bits but the shanks are 3/16" and a 3/16" 60* can be uses also making a huge hp.
Buffalo bore makes a A20 38spl ammo that uses a 158gr lead hp gc bullet that does +/- 1000fps out of snubnoses revolvers.
The FBI uses a swaged 158gr hb hp swc in the 38spl fbi load.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/KNwvR1D.jpg[/IMG]
I'm a huge fan of the 44spl and have carried a snubnoses ca bulldog since the 80's. My goal was to make a hb hp swc bullet like the fbi bullet and have it doing +/- 1000fps in the snubnosed 44spl. I have 2 lyman 429422 hb swc molds so I cast up a bunch of bullets that were 8/9bhn. from there I tested the forester hp tool making 1/16" & 1/8" hp's. Thru testing with other cast hp's in pistols/revolvers/rifles I decided to make some hp's with larger cavities and uses a 3/16" 60* center drill to make them.
This is what I ended up with.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/FTFbMo6.jpg[/IMG]
A side view of that same recovered bullet pictured above. As you can see both the nose and base expanded along with the bullet's body has extreme compression.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Swqedh0.jpg[/IMG]
The test loads I tested that day, that hb hp swc was 1 of them and ya it easily did 1000fps+. Buffalo bore has a 158gr gc hp swc that does 1000fps in the snubnosed revolvers. The FBI used a swaged hb hp swc. I used the best of both worlds and makes a 210gr 44cal bullet that does 1000fps+ in the snubnosed 44spl and is a soft lead hb hp swc.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/fo57jjU.jpg[/IMG]
I used to make a lot of hb and hp swaged bullets using the herters style swaging die that is 7/8-14 bodied that screws into the standard reloading presses. It's simple enough to make a hb pin that goes into the shell holder. And then make a hp nose forming die to go in the swaging body. That swaged bullet used a pure lead core and needed a wax coating to get it to release. I'd put the waxed core into the die and run the ram up. The swaged bullet would stick to the hp pin. The swaging die had a ejector pin that you had to hit with a rubber mallet to get the swaged bullet to release. I had sets of those herter's swaging dies for the 30cal/35cal/44cal/45cal with all of them making swaged hp bullets along with the 35/44/45cal's making hb bullets or hb hp bullets.
The real issue is getting the hp to perform in the firearm/velocity/bullet diameter you're working with. Several different 35cal hp's, most are cast along with the upper left hp being swaged using 9mm cases for a jacket.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/0A0Ga7O.jpg[/IMG]
As you can see you these 35cal hp's have the standard .125" hp in them along with larger hp's (top left my swaged hp and the green 640 series cast mp bullets next to it). The bottom center bullet has the smallest hp, it's a old design the Cramer "hunter" bullet designed for the faster 357mags.
Cast 44cal hp's with different sized hp's. The larger the hp the slower it can be loaded and still be affective.
penta point hp's ='s +/- 800fps
large round hp's ='s +/- 1000fps
small round hp's ='s +/- 1200fps
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/MGkzk5b.jpg[/IMG]
A 220gr cast 44cal hbwc using the same 8/9bhn alloy doing 1000fps.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/td95NhG.jpg[/IMG]
Sorry for showing 35cal and 44cal hp bullets. I simply don't have a use for a 45cal hb hp bullets because the only 45cal firearm I own is a 1911. I did have a couple 45cal hb molds laying around. Since this picture I sold 3 of them off but still have the cramer 5f hb swc mold (bottom left)
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/3f6cvSV.jpg[/IMG]
I understand you asked about swaging. The easiest way I know of to swage a hb hp bullet is with using the cheap 7/8-14 swaging dies that use standard presses to swage bullets. From there it's easy enough to make your own hb & hp pins/designs. Or use cast hb bullets and a forester hp tool to put hp's in those bullets.
On a side note:
That forester hp tool is caveman simple to use and really opened a lot of doors for testing different designs. Those simple 7/8=14 press mounted swaging dies bring the same thing to the table. Heck a couple years back I did testing with swaged jacketed hp's for the 357mag. Wanted to see if I could make a high performance bullet and then cut down on the penetration of that bullet while still maintaining it's velocity and effectiveness. Ended up putting a +/- 5* bend in the hp pin which resulted in a hp that was more effective than it's strait pinned counterpart. Along with the canted hp did 7" of penetration in wetpack, 2" less than the 9"/strait hp holed bullet.
Good luck with whatever you come up with.
As long as you're going down this road, you may find this helpful:
Attachment 294712
The MP Molds bullet is the MKVI, not the Manstopper, but the good news (maybe) for your project is that the two are about the same weight, and they have exactly the same base up to the MKVI's crimp groove.
I'm not a swager (which is why I've had to be content with the MP MKII and MKIV molds), but I'm guessing you could have dies generated to squeeze a MKIV the rest of the way into a MKIII?
The MP 4 cavity brass molds are EXCELLENT BTW.
I didn’t know the FBI still used .38 special.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r
That was a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmi48219
Do you know if they ever studied the expansion a HBHP achieved?Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r
I'm sure they did. Outpost75 would be the person to ask, flat out a wealth of knowledge about things like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmi48219
My understanding (limited and most likely wrong) is that the hb part of that fbi bullet was for consistency velocity wise from revolver to revolver/all the issued firearms. I'm sure there was some sort of minimum standard/level the hp had to perform at. I wouldn't know what it was.