I have been thinking about getting a marlin model 1895 MXLR in a .450 Marlin. Can any of you tell me how they are? :idea:
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I have been thinking about getting a marlin model 1895 MXLR in a .450 Marlin. Can any of you tell me how they are? :idea:
I have been told, that the 450 marlin is no better than the 45-70 assuming you handload.
That being said, I have no experience with them.
if you dont reload and want some oomph (not that a factory 45-70 isnt enough to take anything in north america), then go for the 450,
If you reload, the slight difference in the 450 to a marlin 45-70 load is negligable, and I'd get the 45-70 in that case. Cases are cheaper to.
The thing that always scares me about the .450 Marlin is the non standard belted case. Sales aren't huge and if the factory load is discontinued, you're beat for brass. Lots of brass and boolits for the .45-70 but my darling is the mighty .444 Marlin. It does what the other do with less powder, less lead, less trajectory and less recoil but still has the juice to be a competent dragon slayer. I would happily face any North American animal with one and never feel undergunned.
What is a non Standard belted case.
I have been thinking about the marlin model 1895 MXLR in a .450 Marlin because I have a magnum research BFR 450 marlin. So that i can carry the same round when I am out hunting.
You may be able to get acceptable accuracy that way, but in the end you are probably going to have to carry two different loads anyway. Kinda negates the convenience.
RJ I've got both a .450 and a 45-70 Guide gun models, love them both. The 450 is a tack driver for a big bore even with handloads. I can load shoulder pounder loads or 1200fps light loads with 405grain cast.
45-70 guys usually hate the .450 but I don't. The *only* issue will be if it ever goes away the brass will get hard to find but somehow I don't see that happening becaues 45-70 factory ammo will never be loaded up to .450 Marlin velocities/pressures, that's why it was designed.
Previous posters are right, you can load 45-70 to almost the same as the 450 but I'm keeping mine.
for loading 45-70 shoulder breakers and black powder shooting I've got a Gibbs Enfield bolt conversion to 45-70 I got from Bullshop and wouldn't be afraid to shoot anything in my Marlin GG 45-70 I could put through it.
.450 Marlin is far from dead but brass is definately cheaper and more available for 45-70.
JMHO
Art
:castmine:
Most of the belted magnums are made from the same casing, necked up, down, blown out etc. So if you need .264 Win Mag cases, you can always make them from 7mm Mag or .300 Win Mag. The belt is on the case to provide some strength but more importantly, to provide headspacing, the same as a rim on a rimmed case does. For some reason, the .450 Marlin was designed on a non-standard belted magnum case. It is unique to this cartridge and cannot be made from any other casing. If it gets discontinued, you're done.Quote:
Originally Posted by recoiljunky
Worst of all, it might. Sales of .450 Marlin are not huge and the ammo companies are interested in making money. It would not be the first time they orphaned a cartridge. If you love your .450, I'd be laying in a supply of as many cases as I could afford.
The belt on the 450 Marlin is longer than the standard belted magnums. This was done for safety purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony65x55
Hornady and Marlin collaborated on this design. The goal was to create a cartridge that would match modern 45-70 handloads, yet impossible to be loaded in the older, weaker guns. So the first idea was to create a belted cartridge rather than a rimmed cartridge.
If Hornady used a standard belt, the cartridge could inadvertently be loaded in another gun that is chambered for a different caliber. So they used the longer belt to avoid this.
Here is an example: I have a modified M98 that is chambered for 458x2" American. This is a wildcat cartridge that takes 458 Winchester Magnum brass trimmed down to 2 inches (rather than 2.5"). The result is nothing more than a belted (rather than rimmed) 45-70.
This is an easy way to get a 45-70 in a bolt action, since the use of a rimmed 45-70 would require something like the Siamese Mauser. With the belted cartridge, one could instead use a "standard-magazine" gun.
The problem arises when people either don't pay attention or let their stuff fall into ignorant hands. My 458x2" American ammo will chamber in my sons 8mm RemMag.
Want to guess what happens when you fire a 45cal bullet into a 8mm bore?
The longer belt on the 450 Marlin prevents this from happening.
So the whole different belt issue is about liability. I understand why they did this; unfortunately, as mentioned above, the brass is not common since the design is dedicated to only that cartridge.
The 450 Marlin is a good cartridge. But just like the 458x2" American, it is nothing more than a "modern" 45-70 load.
The primary benefit it offers is that modern 45-70 ballistics can be purchased "off-the-shelf" without having to purchase the expensive specialty ammo (Garrett, Buffalo Bore, etc.).
If you handload, it makes more sense (to me) to stick with a 45-70.
If you rarely handload, yet need the modern ballistics, the 450 Marlin makes sense.
If you're wanting a 45-70 type cartridge in a bolt action (and don't have access to a Siamese model), the 450 Marlin gets the nod.
Cut off a 7mm Magnum case to see if it will work in the .450? if push came to shove and you couldn't get .450 brass would this work?
I made up some round ball plinkers in cut off 7mm and .300 WM cases for a .458 once, maybe half a dozen rounds.
Just a thought.
I have never tried what you are asking, but it is highly unlikely that it will work (although it could be made to work at great inconvenience- more on this below).Quote:
Originally Posted by 26Charlie
But using "Magnum" brass as-is is likely to be both unreliable and unsafe.
The case heads on the Magnum cartridges have the same diameter (.532" rim and belt; .512" case wall directly in front of belt) as the 450 Marlin, so the Magnum brass will chamber, but headspace will be extremely excessive due to the longer belt recess in the 450 Marlin chamber.
With such excessive headspace, the cartridge will probably do one of two things:
1. It probably will not reliably fire. Rather than the firing pin hitting a solid surface, the case is free to move forward upon the firing pin strike (assuming the case is headspacing on the belt and not the case mouth). This excess movement absorbs energy of the pin strike. The same thing happens when we do not fully seat a primer while reloading.
2. If it does fire, the excessive headspace can lead to case head separation.
Most of the "Magnum" family of cartridges are based on the 375 H&H case.
This family includes, but is not limited to:
257 Weatherby Magnum
6.5mm Remington Magnum
264 Winchester Magnum
270 Weatherby Magnum
7mm Remington Magnum
7mm Weatherby Magnum
300 H&H Magnum
308 Norma Magnum
300 Winchester Magnum
300 Weatherby Magnum
8mm Remington Magnum
338 Winchester Magnum
340 Weatherby Magnum
350 Remington Magnum
358 Norma Magnum
375 H&H Magnum
375 Weatherby Magnum
416 Remington Magnum
458 Winchester Magnum
458 Lott
All of the above cartridges, plus others not mentioned, have been available in factory ammunition, and all share the same case head dimensions.
Many wildcats based upon the same head dimensions exist, too. (IMO, a very good wildcat cartridge that should be adopted as a factory chambering is the 416 Taylor.)
To get an idea of "Magnum" case dimensions:
Diameter of both rim and belt are .531"-.532"
As measured from the end of the case rim, the length to the end of the belt is approximately .219"-.220" For comparison purposes, this length on the 450 Marlin case is .252"
When Holland & Holland designed the first "Magnum" cartridge (375 H&H in 1912), the belt was intended to control headspace, rather than having the rim do so. This allowed the use of a rimless cartridge for reliable feeding from the typical bolt action magazine.
With the exception of the straight-tapered cartridges (e.g., 458 Winchester Magnum, 458 Lott), nearly all of the "shouldered" cartridges can also headspace on the shoulder rather than the belt, and that is usually the better method as it generally leads to better accuracy and longer brass life.
So this is why you could use your 7mm Remington and 300 Winchester Magnum cases in your 458 Winchester Magnum. You mentioned using "cut off" cases rather than reformed cases, so I am assuming you meant short cartridges. Even at that, your shorter cases would work because you are still using the belt for purposes of headspace. This is in effect no different than firing 38 Special cases in a 357 Magnum chamber.
So, how do we make the "Magnum" brass work in the 450 Marlin chamber? Here are some possibilities, along with the disadvantages of each.
1. Use the total case length as the means of controlling headspace, much like the autopistol cartridges. Simply measure the length of the chamber and trim the brass to proper length.
The disadvantage to this is the fact that you now have excess space in front of the belt- the brass is now unsupported in that area. Has anyone ever heard of "Glocked" brass?
This space is not much (approximately .032"), but it is enough to be of concern. At the pressures involved for the 450 Marlin (SAAMI MAP 43,500 psi), the case may or may not "bulge" at that point.
If it does not exhibit bulge, subsequent firings of the brass would work against you, as the unsupported brass tends to stretch until it finds that support. Meanwhile, the brass is work-hardened with each firing, so the unsupported head is likely to separate before it stretches to conform to the chamber.
Perhaps the brass would achieve the proper bulge upon first firing, and the bulged case could be subsequently be loaded much like a "neck-sized" case. By preserving the bulge, you may now use the bulge itself as the means to control the headspace.
It's hard to predict the result without actually trying it, but I would venture to say that using the mouth of the case for purposes of headspacing (in this scenario) is most likely to be a "one-time firing" proposition.
Finally, remember that lever actions are best served with a roll crimp. Headspacing on the case mouth and roll crimping definitely do not bode well together.
2. You could make a spacer ring of sorts to fill the clearance between brass and chamber. This would resemble a tiny washer that simply slips over the case wall and slides down to contact the existing belt, thereby making the belt the proper length.
Taking into account the different belt dimensions between the Magnum brass and the 450 Marlin brass, such a spacer would need dimensions of approximately .032" height, .532" outside diameter, and a hole diameter of .512" Note that these are nominal dimensions, and tolerances must be accounted for.
Make sure that your machinist is bored with plenty of time on his hands, and don't forget to give him plenty of beer for his services.
While I have no doubt that this method would work, I cannot see it being more economical than purchasing the proper 450 Marlin brass.
In summary of it all, using Magnum brass in the 450 Marlin, while possible, is at the very least impractical.
Your options for your hypothetical emergency:
1. Do nothing.
According to the dimensions involved, the Magnum brass will fit the 450 chamber. But it probably will not fire, and if it does, it will not be safe due to excessive headspace.
Excessive headspace is not something to fool around with.
2. Take a full-length Magnum case, expand/size to proper dimension, trim to 2.100" (or whatever length your chamber cast says you need), and use a taper crimp only (meaning a single-shot scenario, loading one cartridge at a time).
With the taper crimp and the proper length, the cartridge should headspace on the case mouth. This assumes the case mouth is also of the proper diameter to actually make contact with the "ridge" at the end of the chamber.
Now hope that, upon firing, the case head bulges enough to create a "shoulder" for subsequent reloads. If that bulge is preserved, subsequent reloads can then be properly roll crimped.
If I were to attempt this (which I won't), I would use a full-pressure load on the initial firing in hopes of creating a fully expanded bulge, and use reduced loads thereafter.
But I highly doubt that the needed bulge "shoulder" would be created at the lower 450 Marlin pressures. In our lever actions, the gun will give out before the brass does.
Even at that, at the very least you now have brass with a thinner case head, which is always dangerous.
3. Manufacture the "spacers" mentioned above. Both a chamber cast and a consistent lot of brass will be needed. Access to a machinist will be required.
Don't forget to include time, money, and patience.
4. Maintain an inventory of the proper 450 Marlin brass. When I purchased a 450 Marlin for my son, I also included 1000 cases. He has since purchased an additional amount (2000), so he is set for this chambering.
As stated by Tony65x55 in post #8:With everything considered, I will go for option #4 every time. I do not like messing with headspace at all; I already have enough space in my head as it is.:razz::razz::razz:Quote:
Sales of .450 Marlin are not huge and the ammo companies are interested in making money. It would not be the first time they orphaned a cartridge. If you love your .450, I'd be laying in a supply of as many cases as I could afford.
IF you could get a load to work in both the revolver and rifle, I could see why you would lean that way. If power is the object, and you handload, the 45-70 is the real power champ. The guns are rated to the same pressure, and the 45-70 has a larger case capacity than the 450. More powder at the same pressure equals more power. The 45-70 givs up absolutely nothing to the 450 power wise.
I have one and I reload. I've added a few Wild West goodies such as the large loop, extractor and WW rear peep sight with hi-viz front. The rifle is fast & accurate and easy to carry. I upgraded the recoil pad but it will still rock ya if you load toward the top end. The brass lasts a long time, so anyone with 300 rounds would have a lifetime supply and a few left for the grandkid. Unless you feel you have a need or you just want a 450 or 45/70 - I would go with the tried and true slayer of all animals - the 30-30 Winchester, as it will get the job done without all the fanfare.