Loading cap & ball questions 1858 Remington

Just picked up a couple of 1858 Uberti New Army Remington clones and have a few questions about the loads...

I would like to do a paper cartridge with a round ball, after forming the cartridge do I put a felt wad or patch over the BP? What lubes the round ball when it goes down the barrel? I have seen guys load up their guns and put gobs of bore butter over the cylinder holes to prevent chain fires...seems counter intuitive since the lead ball is jambed into the cylinder effectively sealing the BP from ignition, talk about a mess! Since this is new to me, I'm just trying to figure out the proper and safe way to enjoy these pistols. Any insight or tips would be very helpful.

You are going to get all kinds of answers...

I was taught to load original C&B revolvers by my grandmother's brother, who learned it from their father (my great grandfather). GGF was born in 1864 and carried them on his saddle when he was grown and working for ranches in North Central Texas. His father was in the Civil War and picked up two 1860 Army revolvers off a battlefield.

With that said, we used loose FFFg and round balls or heeled bullets, cast from the mold that was with the one 1860 Army that would still shoot. Uncle Lynn said his dad preferred paper cartridges when he could get them - and never used any type of lubricant, either under or over the projectile. The chambers were loaded and capped - that was all they did. The loaded guns were always carried in full flap holsters to keep any moisture off the caps.

I still have that revolver, the mold and the Eley cap box but I don't shoot it anymore because the cylinder gap is now about .100 wide and one chamber is partly eaten through from old BP fouling - but it's fun to handle every so often.

I have shot a lot of reproductions since I was a kid and always use a lubed felt wad under the ball - but I have never made any paper cartridges.

Very interesting history in your family, what a great family heirloom to pass down! What about using grease or bore butter to "cap" the cylinder preventing chain fires?

When I use paper cartridges, I pre-dip the bullet in lube. You can do this with RB's as well. If you don't pre-lube the ball, then you can always put a gob of luber over the works after seating the ball. In the photo you can see the pre-lubed conical.

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Originally Posted by Bnt55

Very interesting history in your family, what a great family heirloom to pass down! What about using grease or bore butter to "cap" the cylinder preventing chain fires?

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I was not taught to grease cylinders but this was in the late 1960's and there may have been less awareness about chain fires. I'm not saying my uncle's method was 100% correct, it's just the way he was shown and then taught me.

I personally use a greased felt wad under the ball but do not add anything on top of the chambers...and for what it's worth, I've heard quite a few people theorize that chain fires happen from the nipple end due to loose fitting caps, but I cannot confirm whether that is true or not.

So far, I have never experienced a chain fire (knock on wood)...

On my Ruger OA, I use a paper cartridge, with 35 gr 3F, a thin card wad, a per-lubed felt wad and a 0.475 round ball. On the Conical it is 35 gr 3F, a lubed 0.454 round nose. No gunk on the top. Lube is Beeswax & unsalted Crisco with a little Extra virgin Olive oil to soften it.

out of curiosity what kind of BP are you guys using? I only have pyrodex FFG on hand, all the stores I have checked only have pyrodex in stock.

I shoot both BP (Whatever is available) or Pyrodex. I use FFFG but FFG will run fine in these guns. It's not like we are at the Olympic Black Powder Competition shooting against the Romanian BP team. The R grade Pyrodex may get a bit fussy in the revolvers but it will fire.

OP - the purpose of using a BP lube is to keep the fouling soft. Everyne has tiger favorite lube and you will get 100 different opinions on what is best. I have used a mixture of pure beeswax and unsalted Crisco for 60 years.

If you are going to be shooting a lot of repetitive cylinder full when shooting, it doesn't take long for fouling to cause issues with cylinder rotation on many C & B revolvers. My favorite revolver is a '51 Colt any but I also have Remingtons. The cylinder pin on your Remington is smooth - but lube it - it will help you keep going when shooting multiple cylinder full loads. On a Colt, the fixed cylinder pin is of a different design so it can be lubed a little better - but it is just because of the design. Nothing wrong with either a Colt or a Remington. Both good revolvers and fun.

I was taught how to shoot C & B in the early 60's but a old gunsmith in his late eighties. He had a '51 Colt Navy that his grandfather had carried in the war. Not having cartridges, I was taught by him to load with loose powder (from an original Colt flask) and a plain round ball over the powder - then chamber mouth lubed over the ball.

I have used felt wads over the powder - works fine. For years now, I have made my own over powder wads by punching them out of leather scraps from my leatherwork - once punched, dipped in my melted BP lube and then patted with paper towel to remove excess lube. They work great.

I used to hunt rabbits and squirrels with a '51 Navy when I was a kid. I never used anything but loose powder and ball with lube over the ball. I have never had a chain fire. The only chain fire I have witnessed was many years ago when a fellow loaded his revolver with no projectiles (no slugs - blank loads). He stuffed in some toilet paper over the powder and then filled up the remaining space in the chamber with lube. When he fired the first blank - his pistol chain fired like a roman candle.

If you can make cartridges - that's a great way to go. Tar Heel gives good advice on dip lubing after you get the cartridge together and the lead ball or conceal glued in place and the glue is dry. When you introduce that into the chamber and seat it, as long as you have a tight fitting lead projectile that will allow for some lead shearing so that the slug is tight and fills the chamber - you should be good to go. What lube you have on your cartridge (as Tar Heel shows) - will be enough to keep the fouling soft.

I only use BP - Goex - because I have it. If I ever got short though - then I (personally) would try Pyrodex. I have just never used it because I have always had a supply of BP. I use FFG - but there have been times that I have used FFG because I didn't have any 3F - the 2F worked fine in both .36 and .44. Not having used Pyrodex in a C * B - I would heed Tar Heel's advice on the granulation and follow what the manufacturer suggests.

If you make your own BP lube - for dipping your cartridges I would think that you would want it to be on the "stiffer" side. I make my lube stiffer here when we are in Arizona tha I do in Michigan due to the differences in the temperatures. On my BP cartridges for shooting in C & B pistols with conversion cylinders, I make it quite a bit stiffer by using more Beeswax. The quantity is limited to what is in the lube groove of the heeled boolits (which is way less than what is smeared into a chamber mouth when using powder and ball) - and it keeps the fouling under control just fine.

You'll love those Remingtons. Good luck with your cartridge making and let us know how it comes out. Enjoy and have fun!

Good info, thanks. Does anyone have a 44 cal paper template for a cartridge? I made up a post and die to form the cartridge but I don't know how long they should be.. I was planning on using Lee Liquid Alox on the round balls for lubricant as that's what I have on hand. I was also going to make up a felt/leather wad to go between the powder and the ball inside the paper cartridge, if Alox isn't a good lube then I can order some wonder lube 1000 from track of the wolf since I am getting some other odds and ends from them.

The liquid Alox will not keep BP fouling soft. Easiest BP lube is equal parts by liquid volume of olive oil and beeswax. Crisco is also OK.

Ok, Alox is off the list. I'll just make my own and use it on my homemade wads

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Originally Posted by Bnt55

Good info, thanks. Does anyone have a 44 cal paper template for a cartridge? I made up a post and die to form the cartridge but I don't know how long they should be.. I was planning on using Lee Liquid Alox on the round balls for lubricant as that's what I have on hand. I was also going to make up a felt/leather wad to go between the powder and the ball inside the paper cartridge, if Alox isn't a good lube then I can order some wonder lube 1000 from track of the wolf since I am getting some other odds and ends from them.

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https://gunsoftheweststore.com/produ...kit-44-caliber

BOY HOWDY!!!
Those "Guns of the West" kits sure make it look easy.
We tried to make cartridges with My Dad 60yrs ago. Just rolled up cigarette papers with a twist on each end.

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Originally Posted by Walks

BOY HOWDY!!!
Those "Guns of the West" kits sure make it look easy.
We tried to make cartridges with My Dad 60yrs ago. Just rolled up cigarette papers with a twist on each end.

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Did that work?

Yep, worked Very Well. Just stick the cartridge into the chamber, tear off the bullet end and seat. Then poke a bit of wire into the nipple to open up the powder end. He also lubed the first chamber to be fired.

In this part of the world we dont use a felt wad or any other cut wad. We use a fill like Semolina or the like and then place the ball with a lube on top. My own preferred load is 23 grains of 3f or 2f then about 20 grains of Semolina (I use a separate powder flask for this) I then fit and seat a .457 round ball and then top this with lard or beef dripping. The Semolina fill compacts to a hard wad and on firing scours the bore and removes fouling. I have found that a 30 grain load of 3f is only about 100fps faster than a 23 grain load and not as accurate and as powder is real hard to find at the moment it goes a bit further. My Uberti 1858 is capable of very accurate shooting and is a real pleasure to use.

I had several 1860 , 1858 , Dragoon , and 1873 cap and ball revolvers .

The first time out I got about 8 shots before I had to manually encourage the cylinder for the last 4 shots .

I went through the assorted greased cylinder mouths with the standards . I'd get to 15-18 shots and start to bind up . I was shooting Pyrodex in RS and later T7 FFFg . I eventually got together with some guys and started making BP . It made a difference by a significant number of shots per trip .
I then added felt wads not quite damp with olive oil and greased about 1 cylinder in 3 . What a huge difference ! 100 1/8" felt wads with a tsp of olive oil in a baggie and I fired 100+ shots w/o binding or s significant change in poi . Yep it got a little slimy but the fouling in the action of the 1858 I was shooting stayed soft as did the barrel and chambers .

As for paper cartridges I dedicated some study to that , I have an inherited Chessipot rifle so there was a lot of study for that , the pistols , and traditional ML rifles . The guys above use hair curler papers for the pistols . With significant taper the casements will split on loading . They use a tapered form rod and folded base and let them dry in the blocks . Load the powder charge , over powder card , olive-bee lube cookie/olive oil wad/olive-bee wad , ball/bullet , and glued in place formed over the ball . Some tear the base and use the casements as wads , others tear away the ball , dump , and load the wad and ball , with a bare ball , or paper patch .

I had my son 3d print a cartridge former and I have been playing with that, but for the first time out shooting these pistols, I think I will just pour the powder in and use a damp felt wad then round ball and shoot. I never considered fouling and the cylinder binding. Considering that I only have 100 caps and no hopes of finding any in the local stores, I don't think these will be shot too often until things loosen up with supplies.

I have been looking in the thrift stores for an old felt hat to start punching out wads..lol