Lube issues?

I will make this as short as possible, then if you need more info I can add what I know.
A fellow that I have known for quite a while had some luber sizer problems last fall. He wanted me to lube some of his Postell's for him. So I did, only I used FWFL. He said everything was fine, no fouling or problems in that area. He had been using some fellows lube with moly , gents name slips my mind now but he is the supposed BP go to person. Lee Shaver, just remembered.
The FWFL lubed bullets grouped well but were way off from his previous sight settings. I had concerns that maybe my batch of lube would be a bit hard, but I PM'd felix and we thought they would work OK.

I think he said that the groups were running low and right, I don't remember for sure. I didn't think lubes would have that much effect on the way the rifle grouped?
BTW, it is a Shiloh if that helps you any. I used his sizer die and top punch, .458 I think is what it was.
I am ignorant in the workings of BP cartridge rifles other than what I have read. No hands on experiance. I thought maybe my batch of FWFL would not keep the fouling soft, but he was pleased with that part of it, cleaned up pretty easy he said.
Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated.

Any small changes can affect your POI. Changing lube, primer, degree of crimp, brand of case, or even using a different powder at the same velocity can all move it around. When you switch lube, it makes small changes in the degree of friction between boolit and barrel, which makes small changes in your MV. What's odd is when the POI doesn't shift upon making a change. But that happens, too. Tell him to stop whining and adjust his sights! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by versifier

Any small changes can affect your POI. Changing lube, primer, degree of crimp, brand of case, or even using a different powder at the same velocity can all move it around. When you switch lube, it makes small changes in the degree of friction between boolit and barrel, which makes small changes in your MV. What's odd is when the POI doesn't shift upon making a change. But that happens, too. Tell him to stop whining and adjust his sights! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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I agree, slightly diff speed will change POI by MV and BBL harmonics. ....Buck

Tell him to stop whining and adjust his sights! Sounds like you know him, lol.

Thanks fellows, I had my ideas on this and that fell right in there with the above. I had this happen but it was always an elevation issue.
I always figured if the gun would group well, adjustable sights were just for that, adjusting. And if they won't adjust properly, more than likley they won't repeat either.
Jeff

The biggest reason is that Shavers lube is too slick and the Felix lube corrects the problem. Everyone I know that tried Shavers lube gave it up. I have a large stick that I don't know what to do with except throw it out. It causes severe verticle stringing. My mistake believing the written word.
SPG lube is very bad also causing the last 10" of barrel to hard foul. It is promoted by his friends and none of the top shooters here use it either. The bore MUST be wiped between shots with a damp patch and brush, a blow tube will not work because it will not absorb or hold moisture. Super expensive for junk. It is nothing but Chapstick. If I charged that much for my home made lubes, I would be able to afford a safe full of new guns.
Every single home made lube I have made has far surpassed it.
The lube has a drastic effect on sight settings, tell him to change the sights.

44man,

Not to start a pissing contest, especially since I don't shoot much BP, but Mike Venturino, yeah of writer fame, is a big (and literally too haha) BP shooter and competitor really totes the SPG as the cats meow and is all he uses and his cohorts too. What gives. Where'd you get it's made of chapstick?

Joe

Joe, Mike is friends with the Steve Garb, maker of the lube, and might have a stake in the sales. The story is, Steve Garb forgot his lube and had a stick of chapstick which he used. It worked somewhat and he researched the ingredients to make his own lube. It is not exactly the same, being hardened with beeswax and a few other changes.
I have read every article by Mike over the years and have never learned anything new about BPCR. He spouts the exact same stuff time after time. And he pushes SPG!
I shoot BPCR at Shippensburg PA. Brian Chilson also shoots there and won all national titles last year. I know all the shooters and there are no secrets at these shoots. Every one of them will go into detail about loads and lubes. These are the greatest bunch of shooters I have ever been around.
You have to remember there is a lot of commercialization in our sport.
Lee Shaver is a great gunsmith and knows his stuff but you have to understand he can use his name to sell a lube that is not up to snuff as can Steve Garb. Steve is a great shooter but it is not his lube that makes him so.
BPCR lubes are very dependent on the weather, humidity, etc and some can work in some parts of the country but not in others. Some work when it's cold but not in the summer.
If you wan't to get into the hardest shooting sport there is, get into BPCR.

44man,

Thats interesting. yeah Mike isn't the holy grail.

Joe

Some day when my 5 gallons of bear oil gives out I might try some of that fancy store bought lube. But for now bear oil and bees wax is doing right well. As to Shavers and SGP and that stuff, if you could get Ron Long to win a national shoot with a mix of axle grease and dog poo That would be the best thing going. For years one of the best lubes was Dixie's Old Zip and that was just sheeps tallow and beeswax.

I shoot a lot of BPCR, in fact until just recentlly that was all I really cared to shoot. I've used SPG with no problems. I've also used Junior's recipe and other that it being a bit on the soft side when the mercury is high, it did a fine job. Recently, I began using Bullshop's #2 BP lube and it is the top choice for fouling control and it is both a firm lube that is easy to apply and holds up well when the temperatures are warm.

Sharpshooter, Yes, SPG will work under some conditions but most of the time, you have to wipe the bore. The ones you mention are also good.
The whole thing with BPCR is reading the conditions and having the best spotter at the match. You can take the best high power shooter in the world and humble him at a BPCR shoot!
I love the game. I can shoot a 3/4" group at 100 yd's at home and go to a shoot and miss half the targets. Next shoot I seem to hit most of them. Just no rhyme or reason to this game. Of course I hardly ever practice, unlike Brian that shoots 200 rounds the friday before the shoot.

SharpsShooter
Thank you so much for that fine endorcment of BS#2 lube. You know for a long time all we had available commercialy was SPG. SPG works but it has a failing in extream heat. I talked to several shooters at the Quiggley shoot that had total melt down problems in the 106 temp in the shadeless enviroment. Standing cartridges boolit up resulted in fouled powder and misfires. With boolits down resulted in lubless cartridges fouling bores badly from the lube melting and running out.
My goal for BS#2 was for a lube that would solve these problems, and work well under the extream conditions many of these matches are fired in. It has proven successful in compition since its development. It not only can withstand extream conditions but also just has better lubricating qualities than SPG. One competiter using SPG and doing fine shooting but was getting some leading near the muzzle. After firing a string of shots I think it was 10 or 15 with BS#2 the leading was gone. It not only prevented more leading but cleaned out what was there.
While developing BS#2 one test was to put a blob of lube on a black steel plate inclined at a very steep angle and in direct sunlight. Temperitures exceeded 100 F. The final BS#2 formula never ran. It stayed put for an entire afternoon and never ran down the plate. The same test with SPH and the SPG ran off the plate within 10 to 15 minutes.
That was only half the problem though. The other half was to penitrate the BP fouling and keep it soft. That problem was also solved very nicely as proven by its effectiveness in maintaining a soft fouling condition in the barrel. In high humidity a blow tube is not needed.
It was very gratifying to have developed a lube that in my opinion workes better than what was generaly accepted as the best. I offered the formula to Mr. Garby as an SPG-2 or improved but he never responded. Guess his sales are good enough as is. I know he sells his lube in New Zeland where I think his wife is from. There seem to still be plenty of shooters that are still satisfied with it.
BIC/BS

Gents:"Duke"V. (then simply Mike V.) and Steve Garbe were partners in the original company formed to sell SPG lube.. although Mike V. apparently sold his half to Steve G.in the '90s.he still is loyal to the product in his writings..looks as though the passage of time and growing interest has lead to some improvements..Yes,is does help sometimes to know where the $'s are headed.. Onceabull

Looking back at the origin of this thread, the topic of change of POI when changing lubes... I have only been shooting cast lead in my Buffalo Classic for about two and a half years. I, too, was taken in by all the advertising claims and thought SPG just had to be the best. And it did work... sometimes. But most of the time it allowed at least enough leading to make me unhappy. And sometimes it leaded TOO MUCH.

After reading comments on this sight for a while I decided I'd like to try something else. But I have no desire to make up my own stuff. There seemed to be lots of support for LAR45's lubes so I contacted him. He was quick to send a good sampling of his products. I tried his 50/50 lube in a Ruger .44 I'd had leading problems with since day one, and a T/C .44 which I push to around 1600 FPS, and my Buffalo Classsic. Not a sign of lead left in any of them! This is darn good stuff!

In the Classic the 100 yd. POI was a full 4 inches lower. Group sizes were the same. Bottom line? Like some have said... just adjust the sight. I'm really glad I tried Larsen's lube. The man makes good stuff and is really more than fair to deal with.

Bullshop, sounds like you did your homework! I am going to buy some of your lube.
I have heard a lot of good things about Lar's lube but I don't thing he has any for BP.

Bullshop, can I buy BS#2 in chunks instead of paying for sticks? I don't use a sizer, I lube by hand. I don't know how you make it, but if it goes directly from the initial pot into forms, sticks would be OK.
If you get a lot of splatter and spills that you have to re-melt, a ball of that would be fine with me. Seems a shame to cut and ball up sticks.

44man...

LAR45 has a BP lube now. Contact him and he'll send you a sample. If it's as good as his other lubes it'll be a great one.

Thanks, I will check with him