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340six
12-05-2010, 05:22 PM
I have been with the Lyman 8# dipper pot that came with the 4500 sizer kit.
So I was fluxing with wax and a SS Spoon from wal-mart with slots for a buck.
I normally would flux the lead in a cast iron pot when smelting for ingot and would so so till was real clean as the stuff floats to the top and the dipper would get it.
So was casting with as clean as I could get it.
I have moved up to a Lyman BP pot and am doing the same with the ingots once metled and get almost no dross as it was cleaned before.
I read here in the last few days to use a dry wood spoon or flat stick.
Have i been doing it wrong and having to flux extra due to the SS Spoon?
As next smelt would change

Bret4207
12-05-2010, 06:39 PM
Not wrong, no. It's just that some of us have found a simple stirring/scraping action with a dry stick or wood object results in the flux (carbon) getting under the mix better w/o flame and excess smoke. The mechanical action of scraping the pot interior helps release the crud. Try it and see if it works for you. You'll still have to use the spoon to get the dross out.

Here's a hint- save your dross and when you get a bunch, try melting it down. You recover quite a bit of alloy.

Bob Krack
12-08-2010, 09:44 PM
Not wrong, no. It's just that some of us have found a simple stirring/scraping action with a dry stick or wood object results in the flux (carbon) getting under the mix better w/o flame and excess smoke. The mechanical action of scraping the pot interior helps release the crud. Try it and see if it works for you. You'll still have to use the spoon to get the dross out.

Here's a hint- save your dross and when you get a bunch, try melting it down. You recover quite a bit of alloy.
Yup - and the thing that amazes me is in all the time I have spent here and in the archives I have never seen the warning about using flammable flux.

Picture this....... I have my hand 3 inches from a pot of 700 (or so) degree molten lead alloy. Having added wax or other flammable ingredients to that pot of molten lead - what in the heck do you think I am going to do when the flux unexpectedly bursts into flame?

Can you say "reflex"? Throw the stirring object across the room? Splash molten lead who knows where?..........

Nah, when and if I use wax or oil, and I do (sometimes), I will light it with an open flame before stirring or any other activity that might cause me to splash molten lead.

There is a little more to the issue but not by me tonight, maybe later if'n no one else continues the subject.

Bob

lwknight
12-09-2010, 12:18 AM
There have been numerous posts saying to light the wax on fire to keep the smoke down and to expect autoignition if you do not light it first.

NSP64
12-09-2010, 02:37 AM
When I cast, use CFF( Pat Marlins California Flake Flux) and wood sticks. I start with CFF once the pot heats up initially. The CFF starts smoking and then I light it. Once it burns out I stir the ash into the mix real good, and then skim the oxidation off. As I'm casting I use the wood stick to keep it stired. Wax always flamed up so I quit using it.

Bob Krack
12-09-2010, 08:09 AM
There have been numerous posts saying to light the wax on fire to keep the smoke down and to expect autoignition if you do not light it first.Yes L W,

My point was that I had never seen a warning about the reflex danger.

I never felt a safety issue about the smell or smoke.

The mentions of autoignition did not impress me as a safety warning.

Bob

Calamity Jake
12-09-2010, 09:56 AM
After you have done all the fluxen/sturen add a 3/8 layer of kitty litter to melt, it holds the heat in, acts as a flux if needed and allows fresh ingots to be added without preheating them just place on top of the litter it will melt and run thru fluxing as it does.

Bob Krack
12-10-2010, 09:37 AM
After you have done all the fluxen/sturen add a 3/8 layer of kitty litter to melt, it holds the heat in, acts as a flux if needed and allows fresh ingots to be added without preheating them just place on top of the litter it will melt and run thru fluxing as it does.
Good one Jake,

Does it seem to make a difference which type of litter? I know some are much different in texture and composition than others. Grey, tan, fine textured, coarse?

Bob

white eagle
12-10-2010, 01:20 PM
I use the flame from the wax flux to heat my mold more
does a good at it as well

stainless1911
12-10-2010, 02:30 PM
I got oil vapor deposited on my mold when I tried that, had to wait for the mold to cool so I could clean it before it would throw good bullets again.

HammerMTB
12-10-2010, 04:07 PM
Bob,
If Jake is using the same stuff I am, it is the diatomaceous earth kind of kitty litter. The stuff you might use to pick up oil from the garage floor. It is off-white in color, and coarse sand/fine gravel texture.
Jake, if I'm off in left field, step in and set us straight, K? :smile:





Good one Jake,

Does it seem to make a difference which type of litter? I know some are much different in texture and composition than others. Grey, tan, fine textured, coarse?

Bob

noylj
12-10-2010, 07:45 PM
The rules from the old days when wax and bullet lubes were the fluxes available was ALWAYS to ignite the flux. I got some flux from the electronics industry in silicon valley that didn't need to be ignited, but the smell was such that I still burned it. Part of the reason casting was an outdoor or by the garage door activity.

Calamity Jake
12-10-2010, 07:46 PM
Bob,
If Jake is using the same stuff I am, it is the diatomaceous earth kind of kitty litter. The stuff you might use to pick up oil from the garage floor. It is off-white in color, and coarse sand/fine gravel texture.
Jake, if I'm off in left field, step in and set us straight, K? :smile:

Plain old clay cat litter kinda gray or tan in color, coarse or fine makes no difference although coarse lasts longer, when it turns to dust it needs changing, you want no additives in it and of course the NEW stuff, used might be kinda rough to handle.

NSP64
12-10-2010, 08:40 PM
After you have done all the fluxen/sturen add a 3/8 layer of kitty litter to melt, it holds the heat in, acts as a flux if needed and allows fresh ingots to be added without preheating them just place on top of the litter it will melt and run thru fluxing as it does.

Jake, that's a good idea for the bottom feeders, but the original post says he's using a dipper to cast.

My bad! I reread his post. He is now using a bottom feeder.

41magfan
12-24-2010, 02:14 PM
Hi guys I'm new to the site, I also started fluxing with wax but have swiched to useing marvelux. No smoke, no flames. I have not seen any threads of it being used. Is it good, bad or indiffernt? Thanks

troy_mclure
12-24-2010, 02:31 PM
i buy a 5/16" dowel from lowes.

its 36" long for $1.50. thats 9 stirrers, and each last about a pot and half. and i leave the ash on top too.

i tried some plumbers flux once, but it left yellow crud everywhere.

waksupi
12-24-2010, 04:23 PM
Hi guys I'm new to the site, I also started fluxing with wax but have swiched to useing marvelux. No smoke, no flames. I have not seen any threads of it being used. Is it good, bad or indiffernt? Thanks

Marvelux draws moisture, and will rust anything you have near the pot. Most of us avoid it like the plague.
You will have much better luck just stirring your pot with a dry stick.

prs
12-25-2010, 02:35 PM
I would not wanna be caught buying "Kitty Litter". I get the same product in clay based oil dry at the auto parts store.

Just about everyone here has probably earned credit hours from The School of Hard Knocks from hiving tried Marvel Crud. Like the man said, avoid it like plague.

When I use wax or boolit luber as a flux, I never have to light it, it flames off by itself. Since I know its gonna flame off, there is no startle reflex. Actyually, I am not sure I have a Moro reflex anymore.

prs

XWrench3
12-25-2010, 04:59 PM
hey, for once i did not learn from the school of hard knocks. i read here about it being terrible, and never wasted the money on it. personally, i like two fluxes. parafin wax and saw dust. one of these days, i am going to melt some of the wax into some saw dust, and try it that way instead of using them seperatly. it will either smoke longer, or flame longer. or maybe both. i am not sure on the kitty litter idea. all that is is clay, and i am not sure how much carbon there is in it, plus, i have to wonder if any of the dust might combine with the lead, and make abrasive boolits.

troy_mclure
12-25-2010, 07:53 PM
i too avoided it.

BOOM BOOM
12-25-2010, 10:40 PM
HI,
I have used beeswax, axle grease ,bullet lube, & now the dry stick/dowel.
THE MOISTURE IN GREEN BRANCHES IS NOT A GOOD MIX I BET.:Fire::Fire:

troy_mclure
12-26-2010, 12:32 AM
heck, the dowel sputters enough, i can imagine a sappy branch.

Russ in WY
12-26-2010, 12:58 AM
i use them along with Pat's flake flux.. seems to be a good combo.. have some of the floor sweep/absorb stuff , may have to give that a try next casting day...Russ.

noylj
12-27-2010, 10:20 PM
Doesn't paraffin wax and saw dust = Duraflame?
I always used wax or bullet lube and ignited it.

BoolitSchuuter
01-05-2011, 09:32 PM
I started using paraffin and sawdust in combination when I smelt WWs. No dross, just clips, ash and whatever didn't melt or burn up.:lovebooli

Bret4207
01-06-2011, 08:17 AM
I vividly recall the very first time I melted down some lead alloy in my "swinging bachelor pad" as Jethro would say. Of course this was on the ancient Hot Point gas stove in my tiny apartment. I got that pot about as full as I could and then, being of the "more is better" school of thought, I added about half a cake of canning wax. Of course it was a disaster. Smoke, flames almost setting the place on fire, the burning wax boiling over onto the range top, me swinging away trying to keep the flames away from the landlords curtains, more smoke as the wax got down into the range top, lead splashing here and there. Yeah, it was a learning experience. I spent quite a bit of time cleaning it all up, looked like "field day night" by the time I got done (USMC term for cleaning the barracks before Friday morning inspection).

Lesson learned. Once I heard about the stick and gave it a try I never looked back.

Nightfisher
01-06-2011, 01:13 PM
340six I hope you don’t mind me getting in on your thread but I find it very informative and have a few questions. I use a steel pot over a turkey cooker to smelt and cast my bullets. I started using candle wax to flux with but now I usually use saw dust. As Bob Krack said with the wax I would always jump when it burst into flames knowing that it was going to didn’t help. I have jumpy since a trip to Nam in my younger days. I like the saw dust for that reason. But if I am reading this right some of you just use a stick to stir the pot and don’t use flux? Is that right?

runfiverun
01-07-2011, 12:50 AM
you still need to flux the oxides back into the pot.
using a stick helps to get some carbon into the pot and clean the gunk out better.
i use an old paint stir stick, but if you use it while the wax is burning it makes a nice torch.
i switch to the stainlees for stirring the flames.
you need the fire to create an oxygen free zone to help the oxides go back into the alloy.

i use the marvelux to return oxides into the pot and as a top to the pot. it forms an excellent oxygen barrier.
i have also used it to flux antimony ore into an alloy.

Bloodman14
01-07-2011, 01:18 AM
I've tried the stir stick and sawdust, and went back to wax. The reason? The layer of ash/dust was FULL of alloy in little clumps. Every time I would skim, I could see alloy mixed in with the ash/dust. I now have half of a 3 pound coffee can full of dross that I will need to re-smelt to recover my alloy. I may try the kitty litter idea.

Rokkit Syinss
11-06-2011, 12:16 AM
i buy a 5/16" dowel from lowes.

its 36" long for $1.50. thats 9 stirrers, and each last about a pot and half. and i leave the ash on top too.

i tried some plumbers flux once, but it left yellow crud everywhere.

Luckily I never tried Marvelux so never had that little joy. I have read up on various soldering fluxes, avoid any plumber's flux containing zinc chloride, bad juju with lead alloys. Also keep in mind all plumber's fluxes are acid and corrosive to the steel/iron of the pot.

geargnasher
11-06-2011, 12:28 AM
I've tried the stir stick and sawdust, and went back to wax. The reason? The layer of ash/dust was FULL of alloy in little clumps. Every time I would skim, I could see alloy mixed in with the ash/dust. I now have half of a 3 pound coffee can full of dross that I will need to re-smelt to recover my alloy. I may try the kitty litter idea.

Use what works for you, wax does a good job of reducing oxides. As for the sawdust, use it when you flux to help remove contaminants, then once you pour clean ingots the wax should take care of any oxides that form in the casting pot.

There are a couple of tricks to solve the alloy loss, though: Either don't skim until the pot is near empty, or wring the droplets out of the sawdust by squeezing them against the sides of the pot. When it's time to skim, I "herd" the ash/burnt sawdust into a pile against the side of the pot with a dry stick, then squeeze it against the side and skim with a spoon. Next melting session all the stuff from the skimming can gets dumped back into the melt, refluxed, torched with a splash of diesel fuel, and skimmed again.

Gear

Echo
11-06-2011, 01:55 AM
Sawdust from Lowe's, and keep the temperature down.

olafhardt
11-06-2011, 03:18 AM
hydrocarbon fluxes react with tin and lead oxides to reduce them to metals. The more reactive metal oxides like zinc are not reduced. The carbohydrate fluxes like sawdust, grits, sugar, sticks, etc carry bound water which reacts with the more reactive metals to oxidize them to their oxides. This is a sorta complicated set of reactions but not to complicated. To summerize waxes, greases, oils, lubes and other hydrocarbons reduce the lead and tin oxides. The carbohydrates do this pluss they remove some zinc and aluminum. Kitty litter boric acid and ashes etc form layers that discourage reoxidation. For a trully morable experience one could try hair or feathers but I don't reccomend it as it will define STENCH.

milprileb
11-06-2011, 07:23 AM
Use a stick or not?

There was a post that said bottom pour pots will pour alloy with carbon deposits in it
due to stirring alloy with a stick when fluxing.

So I am confused since this thread leads me to believe a stick is good and there is no issue
using one.

I don't know what the heck I am doing with Fluxing as the subject trickles along with Yes use saw dust and Yes use wax. I just flux with saw dust, then flux with wax, then put a layer of sawdust on top of melt and light it so a carbon layer rides on top of melt. Would one of you kindly tell me if I got this part right. Obviously I am lost on use of stick !

Gtek
11-06-2011, 10:55 AM
Years ago I purchased a banded bundle of cedar shims. 16" or so long and varies in width, cut them 1 1/2" wide. Scrape sides, bottom, stir, and finish with a long swirl to get entire melt swirling and it makes a debris pile dead center. Spoon bulk and drag last to edge and lift out. Seems to work real well for me and my set up. Gtek

Sonnypie
11-06-2011, 11:33 AM
Before I settled in on using Lizard Litter (Ground English walnut shells) for my flux, I tried some wax.
It self ignited (no surprise to me) and I had a nice small bonfire in the shop for less than a minute.
And the sooty black smoke from the rapid oxidation and combustion of petroleum products.... :groner:

So I stick to the walnut shell media stuff. Besides, I, and more importantly the wife, don't mind the smell of wood smoke.
Sometimes the roof vent in the shop more resembles a chimney though... [smilie=l:

Oh, and I use a soup spoon for my stirrin stick. She was really PO'd when she saw I had obscounded with one of those. :o

geargnasher
11-06-2011, 12:43 PM
Use a stick or not? Yes, use a stick, but do not scrape the bottom of the pot with the tip of it, as it will slough off ashes under the melt, and the weight and surface tension of the lead will hold the trash underneath and keep it from floating to the top. The ash and junk will migrate to the spout on a bottom pour and end up as little dross inclusions (pits) visible in the surface of your boolits. Scrape the sides of the pot and work the dross pile against the sides of the pot on top with a stick, nothing cleans the sides of the pot of the flaky oxide buildup than a wooden stick of some sort. Skim with a spoon, scrape the bottom with a spoon and work and junk up the sides with a spoon or stick, but DON'T scratch around on the bottom of the pot with your stick.

There was a post that said bottom pour pots will pour alloy with carbon deposits in it
due to stirring alloy with a stick when fluxing. It will, see above for the cause and correction.

So I am confused since this thread leads me to believe a stick is good and there is no issue
using one. There are no issues, only benefits, if used properly.

I don't know what the heck I am doing with Fluxing as the subject trickles along with Yes use saw dust and Yes use wax. I just flux with saw dust, then flux with wax, then put a layer of sawdust on top of melt and light it so a carbon layer rides on top of melt. Would one of you kindly tell me if I got this part right. Obviously I am lost on use of stick !

The stick is the tool you use to agitate the melt so more of it comes in contact with your sawdust on the surface and also with the stick. Wood has some unique properties to isolate certain contaminating metals that are dissolved throughout the melt, such as aluminum, calcium, iron, and others. When you skim the ash that forms on top, these contaminants are removed. In order to "clean" the whole melt, not just the layer on top, you need to use a stick to get at the whole melt, just be careful of scraping the bottom with it if you bottom-pour. The grease/wax/oil will reverse (reduce) the oxides that float to the surface, or form on the surface where the metal is exposed to the oxygen in the air.

If you don't put trash on the bottom with your stick or by dumping sprues back as you cast (the cool, solid sprues sink to the bottom before they melt, and carry their oxide skin to the bottom with them, and that skin will accumulate on the bottom of the pot just like ash will), then all you need to worry about is the oxide layer on top. This is easily taken care of with some sawdust, a stick, some wax, any one of them by themselves, or combination therof. It's a matter of preference. I like to leave the sawdust on top while I cast so it deters further oxidation, but that's just A way, not THE way. YMMV.

Here's an article that explains what all this stuff does and why: http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

Gear

44man
11-07-2011, 09:19 AM
Some flux like the stuff I use to add antimony will suck water out of the air like a sponge when cool. I keep it away from my casting pot, rust, etc. It gets on my spoon when I mix an alloy and I dare not put it into hot lead or the tinsel fairy will arrive.
For the guys that use a soup spoon, rivet a nice long wood handle to the spoon. My handle has been on my spoon for 50 years and I never had to worry about a hot handle.