500 grain bullet for my Win 1886

[KirkD]

Gents, in the photo below, you see on the left an old WRACO 500 grain 45-70 cartridge. This cartridge feeds and chambers with no problem through my original Winchester Model 1886. On the right is one of my reloads, using my Saeco F7D 881 500 grain mould. You can see that if I seat the Saeco bullet such that it is crimped in the crimping groove, the O.A.L. is longer and the nose of this cartridge will not clear the exit of the magazine before the cartridge lifter starts lifting it. I can chamber it by hand and it shoots very accurately in my rifle.

Is there a 500 grain mould for a 45-70 bullet that seats a bit deeper and has a bit of a meplat on it?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/500grainbullets.jpg

[Limey]

KirkD...

...why don't you just seat your existing bullets to a comparible OAL as your WRACO round and use a Lee FCD or similar to cimp it in place?...

...after all, they crimp jacketed bullets without a crimp groove into place with no problems....I have crimped lead bullets into place both above and below their crimp grooves successfully to achieve the OAL I was looking for.

....from your pic it looks like you already have a Lee FCD or similar...I can see the tell tale marks....

...also from the pics looks like someone has pulled the bulllet on the WRACO round with a pair of pliers!....invest in a kinetic hammer if you have not already got one...cheap enough and with no bullet damage.

Straight shootin',

Limey

[KirkD]

I do have a Lee FCD and could do that, but I'd also like a bit of a meplat. I'm sure its safe as is, since I used to shoot some pretty steamy loads using the Hornady 350 grain round nose bullets, but I just like flat meplats. Someone else put those pliers marks on that original bullet; I have one of those kinetic hammers that I use to pull bullets.

[405]

Those guns were designed to shoot 300-400 gr bullets so why shoot the 500 grainers in the 86?--- Ok, well that's personal preference and another story I guess.

Are you wanting a plain base or GC bullet?

I don't have an RCBS 500 gr 45 cal fn mold but looking at their drawings it appears that the nose length and profile for their 300, 325, 405 and 500 45 cal fn bullets are all very similar if not the same. I have their 300, 325 and 405 molds and those nose profiles are nearly identical and the lengths (crimp groove to nose end) are the same at .420-.425". If your 500 Govt (WRACo) nose length is close to .420-.425" you might investigate the RCBS 500 gr fn further.

Or you can go on the Mountain Molds site and design/order the mold you want from scratch. Last I checked MM is on about a 6-12 week estimated backlog.

[KirkD]

Regarding shooting 500 grain bullets in my '86, I suspect that back in the late 1800's, there were a lot of folks who shot the 500 grain 45-70 Govt in their '86's, if those cartridges were plentiful, especially once the army stopped using them creating a surplus. Also, I was surprised how accurate they were out of my '86 ..... four shots into 1 & 3/4" at 100 yards with the open iron sights.

I'll take a look at that RCBS 500 gr mould. Thanks for the tip.

[gon2shoot]

Kirk, I somtimes use a piece of aliminum strap (drilled to the size I want) to insert the nose of a boolit, then a light touch with a file, and you have a wider meplate and or a shorter boolit.

Not a fast process but it works.

[405]

Regarding shooting 500 grain bullets in my '86, I suspect that back in the late 1800's, there were a lot of folks who shot the 500 grain 45-70 Govt in their '86's, if those cartridges were plentiful, especially once the army stopped using them creating a surplus. Also, I was surprised how accurate they were out of my '86 ..... four shots into 1 & 3/4" at 100 yards with the open iron sights.

I'll take a look at that RCBS 500 gr mould. Thanks for the tip.

Ya, kinda. I don't think Browning was looking at a Single Shot or 500 gr Government round when he designed the action. I know the Trapdoor and the big single shots (Sharps, RBs) had been shooting the bigger bullets with success. Winchester was in part competing with the big single shots at that time. Winchester was marketing the 86 with the option for the heavier bullet ammo to compete with the single shot, buffalo rifle legacy. They were smart enough to put 1:20 twist barrels on the 86 45-70s and did offer the big 500 gr bullet load. But, that bullet had to have a shorter nose to function in the 86 and I'm pretty sure they didn't market the idea that all that came at a price with a much diminished case capacity with lessened ballistic capability. They covered their bases in the market tho by also offering other Express type chamberings in the 86 with slower twist barrels for lighter, faster bullets. The 45-90 and 50-110 come to mind.

I was just looking at my cartridge collection and found a loaded, original 500 gr RN round with a WRACo headstamp. It has the much longer RN profile of the standard 500 gr Govt. I'm also quite certain it won't function thru an 86. That means Winchester loaded both a short and long nose version of the 500 gr 45-70. They liked to think in proprietary terms but were not foolish about business and marketing. :)

[KirkD]

What is the OAL of your original 45-70 500 grain cartridge? I also have an original 45-90 cartridge and they have identical OAL's. An original '86 will feed a 45-70 cartridge that has the same OAL as the 45-90 cartridge. I wonder if my original 45-70 cartridge is the shorter version of the 500 grain cartridges?

[405]

Kirk,
It may be an old reload from the era but I'm nearly 100% sure is is not. It has the domed primer and what looks like a correct factory crimp into the bullet crimp groove with the narrow drive band in front of the groove. It is a standard "Govt" looking roundnose. The OAL measures 2.90. The case length is 2.10. It is loaded with BP as best I can tell. My only thinking about it is that it was from possibly a special order lot designed for single shots- Winchester did make several variations of bullets and ammo during that time. I think the "standard" 500 gr 45-70 Govt round of that era, also produced by at least three contractors including Winchester, had an OAL of about 2.70. Those will function thru the Win 86 45-70 action. This one won't. It won't cycle from the mag in either of my 86s... hanging up on the mag port as the carrier tries to lift. I think the Sharps 45-70 OAL ammo specs of that time were about 2.95. Anywho, no matter all just academic curiosities of history.

I think for reloading an original 86 just use an OAL and nose contour that will feed smoothly, reliably thru the gun. I have two 86s. One a BP gun with a DOM 1894 and the other a smokeless transition gun DOM 1900. I played around with them early on and found both like nearly identical loads. The most reliable bullet styles for cycling thru the magazine were the roundnose varieties with an OAL of about 2.5 to 2.65. My most accurate loads were with a 350 gr. LBT FN type bullet. Of course bullet design is where the rub comes. If you load up to near full recoil and fill the mag tube, the case mouth will have to be crimped in behind either the rear edge of the crimp groove or behind the rear edge of a lube groove. It just doesn't give much leeway on choices for OAL- especially with the bigger, heavier bullets. Then you're at the mercy of bullet design- nose length and where the crimp groove is.

Another idea about a heavy in the 86... I looked at Williamson's Winchester book last night and he was able to make the Lyman 457406 (485 gr) work in the 45-70 Win 86.... not that I'd recommend any of the pressures he subjected his guns to :shock: Also, I don't think that mold is part of Lyman's current production?

[KirkD]

Your point about crimping behind the front driving band is something I prefer to do regardless. If a 500 grain bullet gets shoved back into the case, it may still feed, but case volume decreases and pressures increase. Of course, I like to stick with traditional ballistics and stay well away from Williamson's hot loads. The Lyman 457125 looks like it could be a possibility, but I'm having second thoughts about the 500 grain bullet in my 86 for reasons that have been mentioned above.

[405]

Kirk,
Yep, there might be a few current production "heavy" RN molds that would work. Looking in the Lyman book a 45-70 with the 457125 is listed with an OAL of 2.835" . I think it is right on the upper OAL limit for the 86 and could depend on the tolerances of each gun.

[dubber123]

Another option would be to just shorten your brass to reduce OAL. I had a 460 gr. WFN made for my Sharps rep., and my brother wanted to use them in his Marlin. We ended up shortening his brass to make it work. It shoots VERY well, and is his favorite boolit.

[bigted]

Regarding shooting 500 grain bullets in my '86, I suspect that back in the late 1800's, there were a lot of folks who shot the 500 grain 45-70 Govt in their '86's, if those cartridges were plentiful, especially once the army stopped using them creating a surplus. Also, I was surprised how accurate they were out of my '86 ..... four shots into 1 & 3/4" at 100 yards with the open iron sights.

I'll take a look at that RCBS 500 gr mould. Thanks for the tip.


ive been loading and shooing 45/70's for awhile now and one thing i can testify to is that the longer bore riding boolit you can shoot...the better the accuracy to a point. this is why a 400gr will outperform a 350gr and a 500gr will do better generallt then the 400gr.

that rcbs 500gr mould [ i think it is a 45-500] number...is a good looking boolit in that it has the long boreriding bands and the flat nose that seems to do well in 45/70's. i just cast a few of these rcbs 500's today and they came out at .460 diameter. this from pure ww's and skimed to clean up. im pleased with the looks and even tho it is a gas check boolit...it looks rite and i loaded mine to 1450fps with the gas check to try tomarrow. they run thru my marlin just fine so im sure they will run thru your 86 action. my coal is rite at 2.552. this leave enough room inside the case that if you want a shoulder relocation load ,,, there is enough room for this to be accomplished with the rite powder...im using 3031 so far but have a supply of re-loader7 to try as i dont really like the 3031 dirt that it leaves in my barrels [that is burnt powder].

all in all if you can stand the blunt looking boolit nose...try the rcbs mould and i bet you will like it as i think i will as well.

[Don McDowell]

Winchester listed the number of 45-70-500 cartridges the 86 would hold in the magazine. :groner:So much for they didn't think anybody would use that bullet in the rifle:groner:

Kirk you may want to see if you could get ahold of a handfull of the Saeco 645 bullet. It weighs in at 480 cast from 20-1, has an nice meplat and a creedmoor looking nose. It shoots very well in the 2 rifles I've shot it in. I don't believe it would be a problem in a tube magazine.
Keep in mind "crimp" didn't come along until after smokeless powder had established it's hold on the ammunition market, up until that time neck tension and a case full of powder held the bullets in place, so it's doubtfull winchester had 2 different 500 gr bullets, altho they may have seated a bullet deeper for the leverguns, there's certainly no indication of that being the case in any of their catalogs.

[JJC]

Check out the vendor sponsor section. NOE has extras of the .460 dia 500 gr RF. Mine came today. Looks good.

[NickSS]

The 45-70 length case was loaded with all sorts of bullets and powder charges in the old days. Some were listed as the Government load which had either the government 405 gr or the 500 gr GI bullet. They had other ammo that was in the same case but were listed as for the Sharps or Ballard or Winchester single shots or for the Winchester lever action. AT this late date it is hard from a single cartridge to say if it was for one or the other. Also Winchester sold a lot of primed brass for people to load their own. So a head stamp and a rounded primer is no guarantee that the cartridge was factory loaded. I have used the SACO bullet that Done mentioned and it is a good one both the 480 and the 535 gr version. I have shot several hundred of each and they are good bullets.

[KirkD]

BigTed, please keep me posted on your RCBS 500 grain trials. Is that OAL with the bullet crimped in the crimping groove?

Don, thanks for that info on the SAECO bullet.

Now I'm thinking that I just might get a 500 grain mould to replace the one I have.

[Don McDowell]

More moulds is always a good thing....

[Cimarron Red]

Hi, Kirk,

You may recall that I posted over on the leverguns board that I've had good accuracy from the RCBS 500 grainer in my Miroku 1886's. Charge is 26 grains of 4759. In fact the whole RCBS family of .45 caliber FP GC bullets have shot well in my guns -- 300 gr., 405 and 500. They are great bullets.

[Don McDowell]

There's a fella runs around shooting bpcr buffalo matches with his Browning 86. I can't recall exactly the heavy bullet he uses in that thing, but him and that rifle take no guff from any sharps rifles....

[KirkD]

I took a look at that RCBS 500 grainer a couple days ago. To my surprise, most of the bullet goes inside the case, with the result that the OAL is the same as the 405 grainer, more or less. I imagine that that increases the pressure somewhat, with the reduced case capacity, but so long as a fellow is working on the lower half of what is permissible, I imagine that it is fine. I would prefer a boolit that had a much longer nose to give an OAL of the 45-90, which would mean that even before firing, more of the boolit is in the throat/bore.

[charger 1]

Those guns were designed to shoot 300-400 gr bullets so why shoot the 500 grainers in the 86?--- Ok, well that's personal preference and another story I guess.




X2 on that one
The gould 330 grain was the order of the day back then with the slow twist. I use my 340 gr LBT WFN and give er as much steam as the ole girl can take. The quiker the better in the slow twist. Usually the 450+gr stuff was single shot material

PS. is your gun black or smokeless era?

[Don McDowell]

The 86's chambered for 45-70 should have 20 inch twists in them.
The 45-90's were slow twisted at 32 inch.

[charger 1]

The 86's chambered for 45-70 should have 20 inch twists in them.
The 45-90's were slow twisted at 32 inch.


Thats why I asked which era of gun, cause the BP's are 28

[Don McDowell]

Where did you source that from?

[charger 1]

from counting the inches it would have taken for one complete revolution in my year one 86

[Don McDowell]

That's interesting. Have never seen any references to Winchester twists that slow or any othe manufacturer of the time period for the 45-70, with the exception of the Springfield made guns which were 22.
Colt used 25 inch twists for their 45 rifle cartridges.

[KirkD]

I've never heard of such a slow twist rate in original Model 1886's. I just took a look down the bore of mine, made in 1890, and it looks to be about 1:22. I have a 26" barrel on mine and the lands go around quite a bit more than 360 degrees over the length of the bore. The only other twist rate I have come across is 1:16 for an 1886 45-70 made in 1894 (Snooky Williams'). Regardless, as I mentioned in post #5, I only fired four 500 grainers downrage with my '86, but they gave a 1 & 3/4" four-shot group at 100 yards. So whatever the twist rate is, my BP '86 made in 1890 certainly handles the 500 grain bullets well enough. I've put a few hundred Goulds downrange and they shoot well but I prefer the more traditional 45-70 405's especially, and possibly the 500 grainers, although the Gould bullet is certainly a vintage bullet itself.

[Don McDowell]

Kirk I wish it wasn't such a pain in the rear to send you guys bullets and stuff. I'ld sure send you up a selection to try before you go to splurgin on moulds..

[405]

X2 on that one
The gould 330 grain was the order of the day back then with the slow twist. I use my 340 gr LBT WFN and give er as much steam as the ole girl can take. The quiker the better in the slow twist. Usually the 450+gr stuff was single shot material

PS. is your gun black or smokeless era?

I have two in 45-70 and two in 33Win. As far as the 45-70s... one is BP era with DOM 1894. The other is early smokeless DOM 1900. The more or less standard OAL for the 45-70 Govt. 500 RN is about 2.7-2.75". That is within the length restriction (barely) for the 86 action but to think that it is ideal or practical in the 86??... it seems more of a heavy bullet mindset or even an artifact, a carry over from the long range single shots of the previous buffalo shooting era... an era pretty much over with by the time the 86 was in the market. Personally, considering the limitations of the lever gun platform and replacement cost of original 86s in good condition ($5000 +), I simply don't load big, heavy loads in these originals not to mention the recoil can be very unpleasant. Those 300-400 grain loads at reasonable pressures or with BP seem to be ideal for my purposes in these guns. On the other hand, I have no argument with those who wish to shoot the big heavy bullets in these.... to each his own. :)

[bigted]

BigTed, please keep me posted on your RCBS 500 grain trials. Is that OAL with the bullet crimped in the crimping groove?

Don, thanks for that info on the SAECO bullet.

Now I'm thinking that I just might get a 500 grain mould to replace the one I have.

Kirk,,,

went out and tryed those rcbs 500's witch weigh in around 525 +- small amounts. i loaded those first ones at 1450 fps and let me tell you that outta my short lite marlin they go BOOM!!!. they will also tear skin off your knuckle as well as knock yer baseball cap offin yer noggin if you dont tuck it in the first shot of these heavy hitters and kickers. the coal was 2.550 and that is crimped in the given crimp groove. these boolits will not allow enough room inside the case to use black powder i think as they are very long and mostly are squezzed inside the case making the coal the desired length.

having said this i also loaded some of these terifick boolits in a blackpowder LIKE velocity of around 1150 to 1200fps and these shoot very nice...what a wander a couple hundred fps makes on the shoulder. i shot a few of these thru my winchester hiwall with the curved buttplate with no un-nesecary scaring of the shoulder. the load was as follows;

rem case flaired not sized.
large rifle primer [cci]
25 gr of 4227 [imr]
rcbs 45-500 wich casts around 525 with my ww's

no filler just shoot em and these are not the kickers i origanally loaded with the 3031 powder. those i would take on any small trail thru the brush around grizzlys and feel as safe as with anything else ive walked these trails with. just not fun to shoot from a lite lever a bunch. when needed tho i believe they will deliver the punch needed for that first stunning shot needed for these iritated bears.

[KirkD]

For my trial with the 500 grain cast boolit in my original Model 1886, I used 24 grains of 5744 with 1/4 sheet single-ply toilet paper loosely rolled and folded for 1,172 fps. I have a copy of an 1895 Winchester catalogue, and they list a .45-70-500 U.S. Govt. for the 'Model 1886' with a velocity of 1,179 fps. I think we can safely say that Winchester not only designed their Model 1886's to fire both the 405 and the 500 grain bullet, but they actually manufactured 500 grain ammo for the Model 1886. From my first test, the BP Model 1886 handles that 500 grain bullet extremely well at the original BP velocity.

[charger 1]

Don't take this to mean very much as I'm only refering to pages 379 and 381 of the 1896 sears roebuck and co catalogue with regards to their model 1886 specifications on 379 and their ammunition specifications and intended useage on 381. Lets do the last first. Page 381 list both 405 and 500 grain US GOV'T ammunition. On 379 is the caliber listings for the 86 under its picture. Let me quote exactly....

"Number 34583 26" 9 1/4 pounds 45-70-caliber using 405 grain cartridges or less-8 shot $12.98"

Thats why I asked and still ask the era of the gun. The older blacks had slower twists and will not hit jack with big medicine. I know,my first year worm holes with 330-340 grain stuff but throws 400+ stuff all over like fly ****. Do as you like.


PS the 45/90 stuff listed is all 300-330 grain[smilie=b:

[KirkD]

Thats why I asked and still ask the era of the gun. The older blacks had slower twists and will not hit jack with big medicine.
No need to bang your head against the wall, just read my earlier posts in this thread. As I mentioned a couple times in this thread, my '86 was shipped in 1890, definitely in the black powder era and it is a tack driver with 500 grain bullets. So we can conclude that black powder '86's made in 1890 could shoot a 500 grain bullet very accurately. As I also mentioned earlier, it looks like my twist is at least 1:22, it might even be 1:20. Your slow twist is the first I've ever heard for the Model 1886, so perhaps it is unique to some first year rifles. The 500 grain Gov't round went into use in 1884, so it is possible that Winchester may have been dragging its feet on putting in a proper twist for this heavier bullet, which may explain why your first year model has a very slow twist. It has nothing to do with whether it is black powder or not, but whether Winchester wanted to accommodate the heavier 500 grain bullet. Certainly by 1890, judging from my black powder original '86, a faster twist rate was used that was capable of delivering excellent accuracy with a 500 grain bullet.

The 45-90 is an entirely different cartridge, designed for a 300 grain bullet. I had an original '86 chambered for that round, shipped in 1888, and the twist rate was 1:32 if I recall correctly. The 45-90, however, was later designed to handle a 405 grain bullet and was given a faster twist rate to do it. I'm not sure when that occurred, but again, it has nothing to do with whether it was a black powder era gun or not, but everything to do with a decision on Winchester's part to modify the rifling of their 45-90's to handle a heavier bullet.

[charger 1]

What twists do we typically use to stabalize 45 cal 500 grain slugs today?

Show me a tac drive group with the 500's please

[KirkD]

Show me a tac drive group with the 500's please
Well, as I mentioned earlier, what got me on this subject was a little trial I did with 500 grain SAECO 881 boolits loaded in my 45-70 with the O.A.L of a 45-90. Four shots into 1 & 3/4" at 100 yards. Now I realize that different people have differing notions of 'tack driver', but for me at least, if I can put four 500 grain bullets into 1 & 3/4" at 100 yards with the open iron sights on my 1890 vintage '86, I call that a 'tack driver' load. So this all got me to thinking about what other casters had experienced using 500 grain boolits out of an original '86, which led to my original post. I accept the fact that 500's don't shoot well in your particular '86. Ultimately, I'm wondering about purchasing a 500 grain mould for my '86, but I like to hear what others have experienced with shooting 500 grain boolits out of their original '86's. I plan to experiment more with the Saeco 500 grain boolits I have, but the snow has slowed me down a bit, and my priority right now is trying out a new mould for my 44-40.

[charger 1]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, what got me on this subject was a little trial I did with 500 grain SAECO 881 boolits loaded in my 45-70 with the O.A.L of a 45-90. Four shots into 1 & 3/4" at 100 yards. Now I realize that different people have differing notions of 'tack driver', but for me at least, if I can put four 500 grain bullets into 1 & 3/4" at 100 yards with the open iron sights on my 1890 vintage '86, I call that a 'tack driver' load. So this all got me to thinking about what other casters had experienced using 500 grain boolits out of an original '86, which led to my original post. I accept the fact that 500's don't shoot well in your particular '86. Ultimately, I'm wondering about purchasing a 500 grain mould for my '86, but I like to hear what others have experienced with shooting 500 grain boolits out of their original '86's. I plan to experiment more with the Saeco 500 grain boolits I have, but the snow has slowed me down a bit, and my priority right now is trying out a new mould for my 44-40.


No your right. You cant 8itch about that from irons. You gotta remember the human eye is only so capable. I run the tang peep and hold em a hair tighter but not enough to get to jazzed about. I dont consider these 300 yd guns anyhoo. I've shot two critters. Both round 70 yds. I guess I like the WFN going fast cause 1 its the most accurate by far in my gun and 2 it allows me the shut em down fast factor I get from a modern 45/70. An 86% meplat drops things like they had a switch on em

[405]

KirkD,

For What It's Worth. May have mentioned in this thread but I have and shoot two 86s in 45-70. One is a BP gun ca 1895 and the other is an early smokeless transition without the proofmarks ca 1900. Both have 20" twist bores.

Also, FYI. I noticed an earlier post in this thread that mentioned the 500 gr RN "Govt" bullet as being a bore rider. Well, neither of the two I'm looking at are bore riders. Both appear to have a 1R roundnose with the entire nose portion slightly tapering from case mouth to the 1R nose. The largest diameter near the base of the nose section (just above the case mouth) is .445" and the diameter at the beginning of the 1R rondnose is .420"---- that profile is not a bore rider.

I know that the earlier portions of this thread were confusing to some about various 500 gr RN bullets. Possibly also, some thought I was pulling junk out of a body orifice or was otherwise full of bravo sierra. No matter. I pulled out the other WRACo "Govt" 500 RN BP loaded round and took pics of both. I also, revisited Madis' Win book and found reference to Winchester cartridge deparment records showing the various 45-70 rounds loaded by Win. So Yes, Win loaded both a 500 gr "Govt" RN round and some LONGER 500 gr. RN rounds for the single shots and listed them as "Sharps". The two rounds pictured are, I'm certain, WRACo factory BP 500 gr. cartridges. They came from one of the country's largest collections that was liquidated a few years ago. The round on the left has an OAL of 2.90" the one on the right is 2.70". I assume the 2.9" round is one of the 500 gr "Sharps" specialty rounds loaded by Winchester and the 2.7" cartridge is one of the 500 gr "Govt" rounds loaded by Winchester. The 2.9" is the one that won't cycle thru either of my 86s.

[KirkD]

Excellent info. That 2.7" round is what I would like to duplicate. Thanks for that informative post. The one on the right looks like the old one I have.

[44magLeo]

If your 500 gr bullet gives you a too long COAL, can't you trim the case enough to give you a COAL that works through your action? A slight adjustment on powder amount of course.