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View Full Version : Looking for Trail Boss Alternative-My first post



4dogs
12-01-2010, 01:34 PM
I am looking for advice on a very clean powder that would be a substitue for Trail Boss. Price is the issue and I figure to maybe use (Clay's) Universal unless someone has a better idea. This is my first post here although I have cast boolits since 1963 . Unique is my standard but it is too dirty in the 650-850 FPS loads I've become smitten with in 38/357 (125-158gr), 45LC (225-250 gr) and 44 mag (200-240 gr-rifle). All cast. I understand proper bore/boolit fit and lube dirt.

Dirt in a single action or revolver is OK but the rifle is much easier for me if I keep it cleaner. That's how I found Trail Boss and I really like the cleanliness and softer recoil. It's perfect except for the price. Even in 5 lb jugs @$95 it doesn't compare with others for less. I suppose i could live with the cost--and plan to--but if someone was aware of an alternative, it would help since I just retired.

For these powder puff loads, clean with light recoil is the goal for hitting steel targets. Accuracy is second. It's just a great powder for what it is and I'm trying to find a less expensive way. If there isn't a substitute, it's OK--I'll just buy Trail Boss. But but I might get lucky asking here. I've been a reading posts here for a number of months. Thanks.

ghh3rd
12-01-2010, 01:41 PM
I don't know, but I'm sure that someone will pipe in soon with an answer. For now, I'll just say welcome to the forum!

Sensai
12-01-2010, 02:01 PM
TrailBoss's biggest draw for me is that it's so bulky that it's darn near impossible to double charge a case. I like to shoot light loads with cast boolits, so the traditional quick pistol and shotgun powders offer an opportunity to do just that. I don't know of another powder with the physical characteristic of TB. That doesn't mean that they don't exist, I've been told that there are still a few things that I don't know!:mrgreen:

Maven
12-01-2010, 02:12 PM
4dogs, The new Alliant Red Dot (~Bullseye - ~Clays burning rate) or Blue Dot (a bit slower than Unique) may be just what you're looking for.

geargnasher
12-01-2010, 02:54 PM
My experiences with Blue Dot in .357Mag, 44Mag, .45 Colt (SAA level), .45 ACP, and .40 S&W all proved that it is extremely dirty, filthy, and generally nasty stuff at pressures less than 20K CUP. Red Dot may be an excellent lower-pressure choice, but for clean plinking stuff I'd personally go with Clays. Hodgdon Clays burns fast and clean for low-velocity/pressure stuff, just don't try to go to the velicity potential of the .44 and .45 with it because it will overpressure quickly due to it's fast burn rate.

Clays is inexpensive and it only takes a pinch to get the job done, be very careful because it is possible to triple-charge most rimmed handgun cases with the amounts you will be using.

Bullseye is hard to beat for the .38 Special any way you look at it.

Gear

oso
12-01-2010, 03:18 PM
Anybody here have experience with Alliant's Clay Dot (reportedly the bargain USA made Clays analog)?

Shooter6br
12-01-2010, 03:22 PM
I use Universal when i find it. Unique is just as good. The newer Unique is suppose to be cleaner.I use it for moderate loads in my 41 mag, 32 mag. 32 S&W long,45 ACP. and some plinking loads for rifle.(45-70) not to mention slug and buckshot loads...........

Papa Jack
12-01-2010, 04:29 PM
I use a lot of 700X in CB loads in my 38-357 cases, burns clean, seems to give good accuracy....."PJ"

BCB
12-01-2010, 07:23 PM
4dogs,

I think you have to look at the amount of powder per charge that it takes to get to your preferred velocity…

Your Trail Boss is costing you $19 per pound. I doubt you will find any powders at a lesser price per pound…

I shoot considerable Trail Boss and a bit of the info is below…

357 Magnum…358429 (173 grains)…4.5 to 5.0 TB…652 to 688 fps

44 Magnum…44-240-SWC (240 grains)…5.5 to 6.5 TB…697 to 787 fps

45 LC…45-270-SAA (283 grains)…6.5 to 8.0 TB…737 to 825 fps

NOTE: The charges of TB listed above were derived from the 70% rule. Many disagree with it and claim it could be unsafe. These were/are O.K. in the Rugers I shoot them from. You should find or calculate your own data…

My point is that if you can get the velocities, from a new powder, you wish to get with lesser grains of TB and the new powder is the same price as TB, well then the problem is solved… (Awkward sentence—will need to be read a few times!!!)

Only you know the prices of the other powders you wish to try…

Fast powders will certainly be your best bet as few grains are required. Slower powders will require more grains and there is where you will need to compare to TB…

Good-luck…BCB

zxcvbob
12-01-2010, 07:26 PM
Alliant Promo, if you're OK with buying 8 pounds at a time. (it'll take you forever to use if all up; use Red Dot load data)

AzShooter
12-02-2010, 03:47 AM
Solo 1000 is a very clean burning powder. Great for light loads. I run 158 LRN at 800 fps with 3.7 grains and they shoot great.

shooterchris
12-02-2010, 04:42 AM
WW231 Best all around powder in the 38. Can shoot it pretty light with excellent accuracy. Also very clean.

Trifocals
12-02-2010, 06:21 AM
I recall using PB powder in 500 .45 ACP rounds a few years ago. It seemed to burn very clean. LOL

NHlever
12-02-2010, 06:32 AM
I'm kind of surprised that no one has mentioned TiteGroup. It has worked well in many low / medium velocity loads for me, and is not position sensitive. One does, however, have to be careful not to double charge. I put a boolit in each case as they are charged with powder, and haven't had that problem.

zxcvbob
12-02-2010, 11:58 AM
I tried Titegroup and hated it. I still have about 2 or 3 ounces left; looking for a use for it.

International is much better than Titegroup in all respects, except it's only usable for low-pressure cartridges -- maybe up to about 18.5k or 20k psi. (It gets spiky in a hurry; that's why Hodgdon doesn't give any pistol data for it.) You use Titegroup load data, and the International fill the case better.

1bluehorse
12-02-2010, 01:46 PM
I don't see the big savings involved here..unless my calculator math is faulty, 1lb or 7000gr. of Bullseye (for instance) with a 6gr. load (I load 45 colt) gives you 1166 loadings at approx 20.00 per lb. or .017 per load. Trail boss with 9 oz or 3938gr. with a 6gr. load is 656 loads at approx. 12.00 or .018 per load. Using these figures, at 2000 rounds a month Bullseye would cost $34.00 and TB $36.00. I'm sure some will come back with " but I can buy (insert type/brand) here for less than $20.00) I'm sure thats true, and cheaper yet with larger amounts 4lb/5lb cannisters. Still, the savings are going to be pretty small unless you're shooting a BUNCH. Like maybe a buck a week?? I could be wrong, it's certainly happened before, but if the shooting budget is that tight, and I liked TB, I might buy one less 6 pack a month and call er' good..:drinks:

EDK
12-02-2010, 01:59 PM
I like HP38 or TITEGROUP for mid range loads in 357 and 44. They both burn cleanly in my guns. I get them both in eight pound kegs.

GRAFS has PROMO for $88 per eight pound keg. Use RED DOT data, BUT check your powder measure for weight-versus-volume discrepancies. I need to load some RED DOT and see how it performs for me.

GRAFS in Mexico MO is about 90 miles...and the wife drives past the store to visit her sister. There's usually a list for her to get so I can save the HAZMAT fee.

malpaismike
12-02-2010, 02:11 PM
Hello the camp! Nothing like the smell of cordite on TOR to liven the senses!
I have used HP38 in .38/,44/.45 for buku yrs. Started with Unique--great powder in mag loads, but at cb pace, I had enuf powder in my vest pocket to load a catrige or 2.
I have used Clays, mostly cuz I won it in club raffles. Most of my buds use it. Bytheby, they steer clear of Univ and Intl, but I'm not sure why.
I have been predominantly bp for a good while. Still use HP38 [quick aside: I've been advised that it is the same as W231], but have been touted to American Select as an economical powder.
I don't need to renew supply now, but Graf and Sons, http://www.grafs.com/ , had a spl where, if you bought powder and primers, they pd hazmat. May be worth a look. my .02 mm

BCB
12-02-2010, 03:17 PM
I don't see the big savings involved here..unless my calculator math is faulty, 1lb or 7000gr. of Bullseye (for instance) with a 6gr. load (I load 45 colt) gives you 1166 loadings at approx 20.00 per lb. or .017 per load. Trail boss with 9 oz or 3938gr. with a 6gr. load is 656 loads at approx. 12.00 or .018 per load. Using these figures, at 2000 rounds a month Bullseye would cost $34.00 and TB $36.00. I'm sure some will come back with " but I can buy (insert type/brand) here for less than $20.00) I'm sure thats true, and cheaper yet with larger amounts 4lb/5lb cannisters. Still, the savings are going to be pretty small unless you're shooting a BUNCH. Like maybe a buck a week?? I could be wrong, it's certainly happened before, but if the shooting budget is that tight, and I liked TB, I might buy one less 6 pack a month and call er' good..:drinks:

I agree with 1bluehorse...

His thoughts are the same as I was thinking in my previous post...

The savings would be, at best, minimal...

AND, if you purchase another pound/keg of powder, your savings have to overtake the cost of the new powder. At a couple of cents per round--well, that's a lot of shooting to absorb the initial cost of the new powder...

Shoot the Trail Boss unless you want to experiment with a new powder--but that defeats the savings issue also. Dang reloading hobby...

Good-luck...BCB

geargnasher
12-02-2010, 04:44 PM
(BS police here) Titegroup is a fine powder in the right application, and is one of the most clean-burning powders I've used at low pressure. It IS position sensitive, as are all powders, but less so than many.

Gear

parson48
12-02-2010, 05:57 PM
I use a bunch of 231. It's cleaner than a lot of what's out there.

4dogs
12-02-2010, 07:27 PM
Thanks guys--all good info.
I knew this was the right place to ask.


:drinks:

mroliver77
12-02-2010, 10:55 PM
Titewad, note the op concern was economy. This stuff is very clean, cheap and works great in low pressure loads. I bought an keg for $8?. a year or two back and use it for all my plinking and .45 ispc loads.
Jay

Russ in WY
12-03-2010, 01:49 AM
Clean burning & lower priced . careful on the dbl charging tho.. Russ.

4dogs
12-03-2010, 11:51 AM
Again, thanks. Here's what I came up with. :Fire:

Trail Boss is really a different powder and nothing compares exactly. It's clean, quiet, fluffy, low pressure and low recoil so it has its uses where all of those things are required at the same time. I compared the powders mentioned with grains, CUP, velocity and my Brinell Hardness and came up with all as good choices. I narrowed those and came up with Clays as the best alternative for me. It would be perfect if fluffier and didn't develop such a pressure spike but I look in every case so I'll be fine.

There is no easy answer because it is so subjective. Low velocity 'little girl" cast loads may be cheap but are inefficient and even clean powders can prove dirty.
Step up velocities or change boolit weight a tad and any of the powders would be just fine. Tightgroup, PB, Red Dot, Clay's International--really any powder mentioned works out fine on paper and would be OK. Every powder mentioned is workable--on paper.

So, i'm going to buy two powders--Trail Boss at $85 for 5 lbs and Clays at $110 for 8 lbs or $57 for 4 lbs from Powder Valley(?) and call it good. Yeah, it's more expensive and kind of different than how I started out but it will be a looong time before I need more. Thanks to all, this is a good site with informed people. I'll tell the wife it's your fault I bought both powders.

It's my third post already---when do I get my free ham?

leadman
12-03-2010, 12:45 PM
AA#2 is very clean and also one of the faster pistol powders so little is used . Also meters very well.

geargnasher
12-03-2010, 04:27 PM
Titewad, note the op concern was economy. This stuff is very clean, cheap and works great in low pressure loads. I bought an keg for $8?. a year or two back and use it for all my plinking and .45 ispc loads.
Jay

How well does Titewad flow through your measure?

Gear

splattersmith
12-04-2010, 12:34 AM
Regular Clays for all my pistols -- because I have 32 pounds of the stuff from skeet shooting. Works fine, shoots clean, drops nice, etc.

Moonie
12-04-2010, 12:17 PM
I like regular Clays for target loads, low smoke and very clean in my 45 and 400 corbon. I also use it for my wifes trap loads.

I will agree that the new Unique is much cleaner than the older Unique but still not as clean as Clays.

RobS
12-04-2010, 01:11 PM
If you are after the bulkiness as well as clean then Alliant's American Select works well in low pressure situations. It's a flake powder that has size to it and is "fluffy" which is great for the light 45 and 44 loads, but light loads may be an issue with metering in the 38 with the smaller charges.

Bob Krack
12-04-2010, 06:55 PM
It's my third post already---when do I get my free ham?Welcome 4dogs,
Whenever you publicize the get together with dancin girls and beer, you will receive lots of ham!

Bob

9.3X62AL
12-04-2010, 07:15 PM
4 Dogs--

As soon as all of us receive the "50# of Linotype" initiation fee, the free ham will arrive by FedEx. From Nigeria. Really. :)

Welcome to the Enabler's Online Retreat. I use a lot of WW-231 for the mid-range revolver and pistol work. I'm not real concerned about cleanliness, but subscribe faithfully to the maxim that many of the best things in life are DIRTY. 4-wheeling........duck hunting.......turning wrenches on old trucks. You get my drift. And Hoppe's smells good.

Trail Boss is fun to work with. I got 4 of the 9 oz. bottles about a year ago for a decent price, and have really just started exploring its possibilities. If I gave half a rip about economy, reloading 35 metallic calibers is a strange way to go about those inquiries. Oh yeah, I'm just saving tons of cash now!

mannyCA
12-04-2010, 08:16 PM
although not as bulky, GI brass has some IPP which is $55/5lbs, more like 5.2lbs. He said its comparable to unique and loads almost as such. I did some extensive loads with it the last few weeks and am going to post my info on the canister powder board.
plus, buy 6 and he waves the hazmat.
double plus, it has data for all my rounds from 9mm up to 44 mag.:drinks:

tuckerdog
12-04-2010, 09:00 PM
stick with trailboss