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View Full Version : The first shot stinks



reloader28
12-01-2010, 09:51 AM
Is there a trick to making your gun shoot the first boolit where its sposed to go. The first shot of the bunch always is several inches off. After that, they go where theyre sposed to.

Most of my guns are good and theres no problem. These 2 are giving me fits, but I was thinking about it and they are both varmint guns that have had alota fast rounds thru them. Maybe this has something to do with it? Something to do with the lube? I didnt clean out any copper from them yet.

257 RBTS and 223 WSSM. Last night at 100yds with the 223 WSSM, the first one went about 7" to the 2 o-clock position, the next 2 went in the 1" bullseye. It always throws the first one and not always the same. The next 2 are always VERY close if not touching, then they spread out a little. Any ideas?

1Shirt
12-01-2010, 10:32 AM
For whatever it is worth, don't think it is uncommon to have the first shot from a clean cold bbl be off from the group that follows it. That is why a lot of hunters will never hunt with a rifle that is not fowled. Have experianced it numerous times with numerous rifles. In a couple of my rifles it seems to take up to three rounds from a clean bbl before it settles down. This is true of shooting cast or jacketed in my experiance, however I never clean a rifle shooting cast unless I have a leading problem. Only run a single patch after 20 or so rounds. Works for me at least.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

reloader28
12-01-2010, 11:01 AM
I never swab em out unless they start loosing accuracy. This is from fowled barrels. Its like they need to get warmed up a little or something.

45-70 Chevroner
12-01-2010, 06:04 PM
Just shoot a few rounds before you print on paper. All the barrel needs is to get warmed up a little.

Baron von Trollwhack
12-01-2010, 06:18 PM
Quite a few muzzleloaders, BP cartridge guns and even some modern guns shoot the first shot or maybe two shots to a different point of impact than the following shots. This is no big deal. Just learn where that shot goes and allow for it, if your course of fire does not provide for a fouler.

Just learn it and go with it. BvT

badgeredd
12-01-2010, 06:25 PM
Is there a trick to making your gun shoot the first boolit where its sposed to go. The first shot of the bunch always is several inches off. After that, they go where theyre sposed to. NOT an uncommon problem at all.

Most of my guns are good and theres no problem. These 2 are giving me fits, but I was thinking about it and they are both varmint guns that have had alota fast rounds thru them. Maybe this has something to do with it? Something to do with the lube? I didnt clean out any copper from them yet. Are we talking cast boolits or j-words here?

257 RBTS and 223 WSSM. Last night at 100yds with the 223 WSSM, the first one went about 7" to the 2 o-clock position, the next 2 went in the 1" bullseye. It always throws the first one and not always the same. The next 2 are always VERY close if not touching, then they spread out a little. Any ideas?

If you're shooting cast boolits it definitely can be lube. I understand from your post that you haven't super cleaned the guns for copper foulings; is that correct? If so that will add another dimension to the problem.

My limited experience with cast boolits and the first shot problem,have always been cured with a different lube. It seems to me (although I have no proof of it) that hard lubes are more likely to give a guy fits with the first wild shot phenomena. Also as stated above, I do NOT Clean my rifles when shooting cast boolits. I do run a patch through the bore occasionally. A friend told me he was of the opinion that the bore is "seasoned" and removing all lube residue by a thorough cleaning can detract from accuracy. I have come to believe he is correct...at least in my experience. YMMV.

Edd

oneokie
12-01-2010, 06:36 PM
Good points already stated. One of my rifles was that way until I changed the velocity. Then my groups looked like groups instead of patterns. One other thing I noticed with this rifle was the time between shots made a big difference. 5 shot strings, first shot was a flyer, next 4 were nearly touching. If I stopped shooting in the string long enough for the barrel to cool down, next shot would be a flyer. I now have nearly 400 rounds through the barrel and only cleaning I do is to run a dry patch, then a lightly oiled patch. No brush.

firefly1957
12-01-2010, 08:29 PM
Some people blame it on oil in the barrel I was breaking in a new gun with a very thin barrel oiling then dry patch between each shot my 50yd pattern was 8 inches! I was a little uneasy at that point and shot a five shot group without oiling and it made a nice little one hole group. The rifle was a break open Rossi in 223 Remington ammo surplus 55 gr military. I have shot 3/4 inch groups since but the gun is sensitive as how it is held.
My Remington Mod. 740 in 30-06 shoots a inch high first shot from clean bore.
Try shooting a group then wiping cleaning then another group to see if this is your problem?

noylj
12-01-2010, 08:41 PM
Don't clean the barrel unless you have to (i.e., accuracy has decreased).
When you get to the range, always fire 1 or 2 into the berm,
Worry more about where the next 10 rounds go.

onesonek
12-01-2010, 08:46 PM
Sounds like a stress or bedding issue to me,,,,is your forend pressure pointed or free floated?
I always want that first shot where I want it, so I sight in with a cold barrel, and no less than 5 min. between shots. After sighted in I will check a warm barrel group. If there are fliers, I will play with seating depth and powder combinations till the accuracy is what I want.
But with a 7" flier, be it first or last shot, something is deffinately wrong.

HangFireW8
12-01-2010, 09:53 PM
If it's not a lube issue/pre-fouled issue, I agree with onesonek that it could be a bedding issue. The first shot cocks the barreled action back in the stock, and the rest of the shots keep it there (most of the time) and it starts to group.

reloader28
12-02-2010, 01:32 AM
Thanks for the info guyes.

I'm using 50/50 beeswax alox with 10% parafin added.

I dont think its a bedding problem cause they are both bull barrels and free floated and with jacketed bullets they both shoot TIGHT groups from first to last shot. Dead on everytime. I use them for sniping rabbits and wild cats (or whatever) out to 300yds or more. Dont know that I'll get that range with cast boolits, but thats why I want them as good as I can get them without going back to condom bullets.

I was thinking something with the lube. Maybe to much? I wouldnt think so, but I dont know.

I hadnt thought about the speeds much. Thats a possibility.

At the moment, I'm working with a different boolit with the Roberts and having different problems now. I do need to super clean the barrels of both of them from jacketed bullets, just aint took the time to do it. I'm lazy and just like to shoot.

If I get the chance, I'll try a couple different things tommorrow and maybe even clean out the copper fowling. I know they have alotta jack rabbit and p-dog town jacketed's ran thru them.

Thanks guys

Bambeno
12-02-2010, 02:28 AM
Your main problem could be left over copper fouling when shooting cast.

rhead
12-02-2010, 06:13 AM
Have you tried loading one less round into the magazine? I have a couple of 22s that did that and short loading the magazine solved the problem.

onesonek
12-02-2010, 09:00 AM
Thanks for the info guyes.

I'm using 50/50 beeswax alox with 10% parafin added.

I dont think its a bedding problem cause they are both bull barrels and free floated and with jacketed bullets they both shoot TIGHT groups from first to last shot. Dead on everytime.

I was thinking something with the lube. Maybe to much? I wouldnt think so, but I dont know.

I hadnt thought about the speeds much. Thats a possibility.



Well I'm new to cast, and have been very lucky in my brief career shooting them. With J's that would most likely be a stress or bedding problem.
But with the above, and as oneokie stated,,,,I would play with velocity changes first. If that don't solve the cold shot flier, then I really suspect it's the lube. So I would alter or change it altogether. I don't know that it is a too much or too little lube problem either, but rather a temperature problem. To a degree, still a stress problem.

old turtle
12-02-2010, 10:00 AM
My experience is that it is like outer space and airline fares. No one really understands it. Most rifles I shoot cast boolits in, take a fouling shot. It varies from rifle to rifle. I have learned that like being married, you must accept some things. Cast boolit shooting presents many unusual challenges which is some of the fun. But then again I afraid that my in depth of knowledge is very thin indeed.