Barrel as a Case Gauge?

[stainless1911]

I've heard folks talking about doing this, but HOW do you do this?

[thx997303]

Step 1: Take barrel out of gun.

Step 2: Load rounds.

Step 3: Drop loaded round into chamber.

They should generally drop in flush using only their own weight, and should generally fall out of the chamber on their own weight as well.

The reason for this, case gauges are made to SAAMI specs, and will assure that your ammunition will chamber in ALL guns in that caliber.

That means even the absolute tightest of chambers.

Since we tailor loads to individual guns, using the chamber of the barrel as a case gauge will assure that the round will chamber in THAT gun.

[NuJudge]

You can also see if the bolt closes easily, although most rifles have considerable camming power on closing, so it is easy to think you have set headspace on the case a couple thousandths smaller than the chamber, when you actually have it a couple thou too big.

[gray wolf]

If it's a bolt action it is recommended that the firing pin be removed. This will give a more realistic feel when closing the bolt.
To the OP it would help if we new what type of firearm it was.

[Gohon]

I'm going to assume by your name that you are talking about a 1911. If so then the picture below will explain things.

http://i55.tinypic.com/1433xuh.jpg

[thx997303]

I like that picture Gohon.

Sure helps when you can visualize what's being said in text.

[stainless1911]

sorry 'bout that. Its an XD .40

[fredj338]

The other reason to use your bbl for a final gage is case gages have no rifling. They only tell you if the case fits the SAAMI spec. Since every manuf bbl is a bit diff, one may have a shallower throat than another & ammo w/ a certain OAL that fits say a SPringfield 1911 won't fit a XDTAC (ask me how I know).

[stainless1911]

I set the OAL at 1.135, which is the max (?) But its still a little low, according to the picture above. But the Lyman book puts the OAL for a cast bullet (lyman truncated) at 1.100, so If you could set me straight I would appreciate it. Im trying to get the thing to quit leading.

[ghh3rd]

I started using my Glock barrel as a case gage after one factory round had a bit of debris between the brass and bullet. I was at the range, and this round jammed into the chamber so tight and so far that it took a large flat blade screwdriver (covered in tape) to wedge in and force the slide back.

Since then I use my barrel as a case gage for all of my carry ammo.

Randy

[stainless1911]

I loaded a round with one grain of 231, and shot it into a coat, so that I could measure the bullet. At the base of the cone of the bullet Im getting .399 5. At the bottom of the bullet, Im getting .398 at the most.

When I run a bullet through the Lee sizer die, Im getting .401 and a little 5.

[Gohon]

I'm certainly no expert and a lot of others on here are smarter than I on these subjects but I've never heard of COAL being the source of barrel leading. maybe I'll learn something.

If I'm deciphering you last post correctly my understanding is.........

(1) You're slugging your barrel by shooting a round through it with primer and one grain of
powder power?
(2) Your sizing your boolets at .401 (don't know what that "and a little 5" means).
(3) Your readings on the fired boolet are .399 on the ogive and .398 at the base.

Is this correct?

Questions.....
What alloy are you using?
What lube are you using?
What powder are you using?
What speed are you driving the boolets?
Are you using a Lee FCD?
What is the amount of leading you're getting and how many rounds before it shows up?

The more everyone knows the better they can help you with your problem.

[stainless1911]

I'm certainly no expert and a lot of others on here are smarter than I on these subjects but I've never heard of COAL being the source of barrel leading. maybe I'll learn something.

If I'm deciphering you last post correctly my understanding is.........

(1) You're slugging your barrel by shooting a round through it with primer and one grain of
powder power?
(2) Your sizing your boolets at .401 (don't know what that "and a little 5" means).
(3) Your readings on the fired boolet are .399 on the ogive and .398 at the base.

Is this correct?

Questions.....
What alloy are you using?
What lube are you using?
What powder are you using?
What speed are you driving the boolets?
Are you using a Lee FCD?
What is the amount of leading you're getting and how many rounds before it shows up?

The more everyone knows the better they can help you with your problem.

yes, I slugged the barrel under power
the little 5. ~ I have a digital caliper, and it reads .4015
(3) Your readings on the fired boolet are .399 on the ogive and .398 at the base.
Yes.

alloy: Water dropped Wheel Weights
lube : 1 lb beeswax, 1 lb paraphin 13 oz petroleum jelly, 2 tbsp. STP oil treatment, and 4 1/2 tbsp Lanolin
powder : Winchester 231, @ 5.1 gn.Winchester primers WSP
180gn Lyman truncated cone, bevel base, 1 lube groove
The leading shows up within a few rounds, and gets pretty thick quite quickly.

[HighHook]

Stainless1911 i had the same problem as you an am curious myself of the answer. I backed down to 4.5 231 with better results and only slight leading.

[stainless1911]

That's too light of a load. 231 ranges from 4.3 to 5.8. There isnt any point in casting at all, if the gun doesnt work properly. You don't have to run max loads all day, but if you can't run a medium load, then its not working. People can shoot 2K= loads out of a rifle, there must be a way to get 850 or 900 fps out of a 3" barrel without leading. Besides, this is my carry gun, Im not going to want to practice with a weak load, and then carry a real bullet. I want to make real bullets.

[thx997303]

I would personally just go ahead and slug the barrel the old fashioned way.

Unfortunately, you may be sizing down the boolit when seating, and that will give you false readings.

[geargnasher]

Stainless, do a search on .40 S&W, check posts by me and Doby45, this has all been covered in great detail recently.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Here, I found one of the better ones for you. Please read. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=93981&highlight=.40+Doby45

Gear

[Tom-ADC]

Used to do that with a spare 1911 45 acp barrel.

[stainless1911]

Stainless, do a search on .40 S&W, check posts by me and Doby45, this has all been covered in great detail recently.

Gear

I think the problem is in the dies. You mentioned an expander die as a possible culprit, Im using a Lee 4 pc. die set, are you referring to the die with the de priming pin, or the die to expand the mouth so that you can put the bullets in easier?

And how do I fix the problem when I find it?

[geargnasher]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=93981&highlight=.40+Doby45

If you want to shortcut, just read the posts by me, CBRick, and Doby45. It's all there.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Im reading that thread now.

I slugged the barrel by driving an as cast bullet (didn't have pure lead) through the barrel. I started at the muzzle, and it cut a little lead ring. Just as soon as the ring detatched from the lead, the slug slid down the barrel with very little effort, I was able to push it the rest of the way through by hand.

[geargnasher]

I don't remember if it was mentioned in that thread or one of the other ones by Gun Nut on the same subject, but Doby and I both had JimInPhx make longer and fatter expander plugs for the Lee Powder-Through-Expander dies that we use, that ended up solving the majority of our leading problems with the .40. Correct alloy for the pressures we used and correct lube for the velocity/pressure range you choose to load for will take care of the rest.

As for overall length (seating depth), I think THX and Gohon about covered it. I like to headspace the Lee 175 TC boolit on the rifling in my .40 M&P, just leaving about .002-3" between the case head and the barrel hood if you put a straight edge perpendicular to the case across the hood. Not all chambers will allow you to do this, requiring headspacing on the case mouth or extractor claw due to magazine or feeding limitations and/or longer throat/leade/ball seats (whatever you want to call it).

Gear

[stainless1911]

there is so much that is going on all at once, and I don't know what I am doing. Im so confused and frustrated that Im just about to just give up. I think Im going to can this casting thing until I can get someone to actually come over and show me how to set this stuff up. I can see why so few people reload.

[thx997303]

Don't give up. You just have to follow through and do it methodically.

First, you need to slug your bore twice. Once from the muzzle, all the way through.

Then slug it again, from the chamber, and only halfway through.

Compare the two diameters, and report on your findings.

Then, take a boolit sized .001-.002" over groove diameter.

Flare the mouth on your case just enough to accept the base of the boolit.

Seat and crimp the boolit in the case. Then pull the boolit using a kinetic puller or whatever you have.

Measure the boolit and report on that.

Take note of whether or not your expander will expand the case enough to accept the boolit base.

This is where to start, and you will likely find your problem using these steps.

Let us know.

[stainless1911]

Thanks for the encouragement. :)

I'll slug the bore after dinner.

Can the OAL be greater than the 1.135 max that I have read about? the only way to get the base of the bullet to line up with the picture on the first page of this thread is to set it at around 1.160

[MGySgt]

I am going to start a heated debate here - BUT

In my humble opinion a lot of your problems are with the Lee Dies. Experienced reloaders can make them work, but I hate them.

I use to use Lyman exclusively and never had a problem with bullet fit due to thier M die.

I think that Lyman makes the best dies for a new reloader. Their Cast Boolit books are greeat and should be required read.

I have my flak jacket on folks!

[thx997303]

If the longer OAL will fit in your magazine as well as your chamber, then you can load them longer.

I would test their feeding characteristics as well.

[stainless1911]

ok, I have a digital caliper, it reads .xxx then there is a little 5 that shows up sometimes.

slugged muzzle first, : .4005
slugged half way from rear, : .401 to .4015
Pulled bullet, hammer puller : .400

Out of Lee push through sizer, : .4015 sometimes .402

[MtGun44]

Remember tha calipers are only accurate to +/-.001.

If you can check a factory bullet near that size, of a known diameter, to see
how much yours might be off. Really , you need a micrometer accurate
to +/- 0.0001, which are availalbe for under $50, sometimes way under.

Bill

[stainless1911]

sigh.

I have a factory bullet, it measured .399.

I now have no idea how big anything is.

[stainless1911]

I tried to learn how to read a micrometer once, then bought a digital caliper, and Im having enough trouble measuring to the thousanth with that!

[geargnasher]

OK, first off, while digital calipers aren't really accurate enough for fitting boolits, they ARE usually close enough as comparators.

.399 is about normal for jacketed factory bullets, that's one reason your expander is too small for cast!!!!!!!! Copper bullets don't have to be as airtight in the bore ("obturate" is the term for achieving complete bore seal from breech to muzzle with a cast boolit) and therefore are usually at or just below standard groove diameter.

While your calipers might not be accurate enough to tell what's going on between the two barrel slugs (you might or might not have a taper or restriction in there), they are most certainly telling you that your sized boolits are getting swaged down .0015" to .0020", and this is BAD NEWS. This is almost certainly the cause of your problems.

If you measure a sized case outside diameter just below the case mouth (rotate the case to make sure it's round and giving an accurate measurement), then seat a boolit in it and measure again, then add .0015" to the seated-boolit measurement, you'll get an idea of the total amount the brass has to expand to accomodate the boolit. If the difference between the two measurements is more than .002" (and I'll bet you a pound of wheel weights it is LOTS more, like .005") then the brass is having to be stretched too much by the boolit and the boolit is getting squeezed. .002" case tension (interference fit between boolit and inside diameter of the case "neck") is more than enough to hold the boolit under recoil.

One more thing to check, take the expander out of the expander die and measure it. You want an expander that extends down into the case about 20-50 thousandths below where the boolit base will be seated, and for the .40 you want it to be about .001" under or maybe right at boolit diameter. When the expander is forced into the case it should stretch the brass and make way for the boolit as well as flare the mouth slightly. The brass will spring back slightly after the expander is withdrawn, so it is a balancing act.

You must understand that most factory reloading die sets aren't designed for cast boolits and often leave the brass too tight for our softer boolits. You will need to get a larger and longer expander spud made, or buy a Lyman "M" expander die that's about .400", and make sure it's long enough to expand the case all the way to just past where the base is seated. If you don't do this, your problems with leading won't go away.

I'll post a link in a minute to a thread where you can see a dimensional drawing of a proper .40 S&W expander plug for the Lee PTE die, if you have a good local machinist, maybe he can make you one.

One more thing, if you want, I can mail you a handfull of pre-expanded, decapped .40 cases to load up with your .4015" boolits so you can see what difference it makes.

Gear

[Gohon]

slugged muzzle first, : .4005
slugged half way from rear, : .401 to .4015
Pulled bullet, hammer puller : .400
Out of Lee push through sizer, : .4015 sometimes .402

Stainless, it appears to me and as others have stated, that your expander is undersized. Just seating the bullet is sizing the base down .001-.0015 below bore diameter according to your readings. Leading is going to be pretty much guaranteed. Even if your set of calipers are not that accurate, they are still showing a problem. Personally if your gun feeds, goes into battery and fires reliable, I wouldn't worry about COAL all that much at this point.

[geargnasher]

CRUD. The thread with Doby's and my pics is gone from the testing forum, and I think it was Doby who actually posted the .40 pic, cuz it ain't in my attachments. Anywhoo, I think the expander part was .350" or somewhere therebouts, and .400 in diameter. We had it designed for the Lee 175 TC boolit seated to about 1.118" COAL, yours may need to be different based upon how far the boolit goes down in the case.

Try to measure that for me and I'll double check to see if my expander is long enough to do the job for your seating depth, or maybe it's too long and I can run it in partway and you can finish flaring the mouth with your dies. Lemme know.

Gear

[fredj338]

I can almost guarantee that the LFCD, the 4th die, is the culprit. They tend to size the lead bullet down along w/ the case. Size the bullet to 0.401", run them along @ 900fps, ww alloy is fine, seat & taper crimp only, toss the LFCD in the trash or sell it to someone that uses jacketed bullets, it's just not needed to make reliable, accurate ammo.
OAL has nothing to do with leading. Your leading is a bullet fit problem, alloy problem, powder problem, lube problem or a combo of all variables. So eliminate variables one at a time starting w/ proper bullet fit.

[stainless1911]

Try to measure that for me and I'll double check to see if my expander is long enough to do the job for your seating depth, or maybe it's too long and I can run it in partway and you can finish flaring the mouth with your dies. Lemme know.
Gear

You want the OAL, or how far the boolet goes into the case? I assume the latter.

Im getting around .350

empty sized case, just below case mouth, : .418
Bullet seated, measured just below mouth : .422

the diameter of the expander in the powder through die is : .397
it only goes into the sized casemouth about .115 before it starts to flare it.

I put a sized case through the expander die, then seated and then removed a boolet. It measured .401 and once, I got a .4015. The boolet was shiny below the lube groove, but not above it.

Above the lube groove I got .4015 and .402

[stainless1911]

.
OAL has nothing to do with leading..

Im certain the problem is bullet fit as well. I was concerned with the OAL thinking that if the boolet was too far from the rifling, that it would skid, and contribute to the leading.

[stainless1911]

Is this the die you referred me to?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=568862

[stainless1911]

CRUD. The thread with Doby's and my pics is gone from the testing forum, and I think it was Doby who actually posted the .40 pic, cuz it ain't in my attachments. Anywhoo, I think the expander part was .350" or somewhere therebouts, and .400 in diameter. We had it designed for the Lee 175 TC boolit seated to about 1.118" COAL, yours may need to be different based upon how far the boolit goes down in the case.

Try to measure that for me and I'll double check to see if my expander is long enough to do the job for your seating depth, or maybe it's too long and I can run it in partway and you can finish flaring the mouth with your dies. Lemme know.

Gear

I THINK this might have been what you were looking for, post # 19?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=93108&highlight=expander+lee+plug

[Gohon]

I can almost guarantee that the LFCD, the 4th die, is the culprit

I forgot all about Stainless saying he had the 4 die Lee set. Yes the LFCD will swage down cast bullets. I ran into that problem with the 45 Colt and 357 Magnum. Casts were being swaged down .0015-.0020 below what I wanted to shoot. My solution was to remove the carbide ring and the problem was solved.

So far from what I have read, you have seated a .4015 sized bullet after using the sizing and expander die on the case, then pulled the bullet and got a reading of .401-.4015. But, when you follow up with crimping the bullet with the LFCD and then pull the bullet, you get readings of .398-.399.

I think fredj338 may have hit on your problem. However, as geargnasher has said, take it one step at a time or you'll never figure out the real problem. You're getting a lot of good advise on here but it can be confusing. I thought the problem might be the expander die but now I'm leaning towards the LFCD.

[thx997303]

To see whether it is the LFCD's carbide ring, here's a trick.

Take the internals out of your expander die, and your FCD.

Swap the internals from the FCD into the expander die body.

Seat and crimp a boolit in a flared case.

Pull boolit and re measure.

[geargnasher]

I forgot about that *()&^(*&^% Lee FCD (that stands for Foul Cussing Device in certain calibers like this one, in others with the collet-type crimper it is extremely handy) since I threw the one from my .40 set in the trash some time ago, it will cause a world of problems swaging the brass and boolit together, it's like going through the resizing die all over again, but with the boolit installed. Don't use that ***, or if you do, follow the advice that has been given and punch out the carbide ring. You can "crimp'" just fine using the seating die, and in fact can seat and crimp in one operation if you set it up correctly. Since you should just be using the crimp shoulder to straighten out the bell and not actually turn the case mouth inward, you can seat/crimp together. If you were roll crimping in a crimp groove as in .357 Magnum often it is best to seat in one step and crimp in another with the seater plug removed.

I'll prep some brass tonight and send it out to you to try, but you have to promise not to use the FCD on it! Just seat the boolits where you want them, and make sure the bell is gone. If you feel more comfortable seat and crimp in two steps to make sure you don't overdo the crimp: Seat all the boolits in the batch, then pull the seater plug out and adjust the die down until you get your crimp right, then crimp them all. I set my crimp die up with a micrometer, checking the case mouth after each adjustment until it meausures the same as it does 1/8"-1/4" below the mouth. Your calipers will work just fine for this.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Does anybody know the diameter of the expander that's in the M die?

[geargnasher]

I pulled the primer feed and seater die out of the progressive last night and cranked out a few unprimed, sized, and expanded cases, they're on the way.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Thanks. I'll let you know what happens when I shoot them. Im probably going to have one of our posters here make a new expander for me, we have been discussing it. It all depends on the money.

[stainless1911]

This thread has been very helpful. I dont know how people got along without the internet. :)

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I had a real problem with leading on my .357 revolver. The guys here said it was the Lee seating die. sizing die and crimp die.. I knocked the carbide sizer out of the crimping die and still had the problem of leading. I turns out that the Lee seating die was reducing the size of my cast boolit. I bought a Lyman"M" exanding die and an RCBS seating die and that was the end of my problems. Have you pulled of boolit from a finished round? That told the tale for me. I am using a cast boolit at .360

[stainless1911]

Should the expander be made to .400 or to .401?

[stainless1911]

I took the carbide thing out of the FCD.

[geargnasher]

Should the expander be made to .400 or to .401?

Load some and shoot them with the brass I'm sending you and I'll answer that for you.

One thing I forgot to bring up here is copper fouling. Many shooters fail to clean ALL the copper fouling from their barrels before attempting to shoot cast and get bad lead fouling because of it. Lead adheres to copper and is sloughed off the boolit if it is fired in a copper-fouled barrel, then lead adheres to the lead fouling creating a snowball effect even if everything else is done right.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Thanks for the tip. I'll have the barrel shining like a new penny. er, um, no that isn't quite right... lol

[stainless1911]

Brass received, thanks much. I'll post the results as soon as I can get them out to the range. :)

[stainless1911]

I was thinking about having Accurate Molds do a brass custom mold for me, I was wondering what diameter to have it made to. I use a lee push through sizer they come out .4015 to .402, but I could always increase that dia. a wee bit if needed.

[geargnasher]

I'd go with .402" as-cast with WW metal, but my gun has a .401" groove, some are .400" I'm perfectly happy with the Lee mould, the TC design is accurate, proven (by others) to be quite deadly, and is very easy to cast with and load due to the bevel base. Personally, I would spend the money on your reloading dies first, then go on to a custom mould if you think you really need one for that gun.

PS PLEASE don't over-crimp those cases, it will make the whole experiment moot. Seat you boolits to the depth you want them without letting the cases touch the crimp restriction in the seating die (that means screw the seater plug all the way down and unscrew [raise] the die body until you get the seating depth you want), then remove the seater plug altogether and carefully lower (screw down) the die body until it just barely begins to crimp the case mouth, progress until it straightens the mouth but DOES NOT turn it inward or make it smaller than the rest of the case where the boolit is seated. Check it with your calipers, go slow, then make certain it will chamber after being straightened. Some chambers taper more than others toward the front, and remember that most chambers are made for J-word bullets and loaded cases are .001-002" or more smaller in diameter when loaded with copper bullets.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Thanks. I'll go slow.

[stainless1911]

My as cast "Lyman" bullets are not round. .404 to .409 in the same round.

[stainless1911]

If it's legal, I can send you a barrel slug, a round or two that I cast and sized, and a couple rounds that I loaded from the brass you sent me.

[thx997303]

It's legal to do so, so long as you follow ORM-D guidelines.

Here's a good link.

http://www.adazonusa.com/howtoshipammunitionorammo-a-45.html

[geargnasher]

If it's legal, I can send you a barrel slug, a round or two that I cast and sized, and a couple rounds that I loaded from the brass you sent me.

No need, you seem to have a pretty good handle on what you're doing, just make sure the rounds will chamber.

If your Lyman mould is dropping boolits that far out of round and that large, you have a problem with the mould. Check for little bits of lead "flashing" stuck to the faces of the blocks, it is common to get a little speck of lead in there and squish it to the blocks when closing, thus holding them open just a few thousandths when you're casting. Do a "daylight" test of the blocks, they should go together with zero light coming between the blocks. Open the sprue plate, close the blocks tight with the handles, and peer into the cavities with a flashlight shining on the underside of the mould. If no light is visible inside the cavity I'd say the mould is bad, but I'd put money on a bet that you have trash between the blocks, a burr, or the alignment pins stick out too far.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Ok, I think we are on the right track now, I fired off the 50 you gave me, and there was no real leading, only a grey "whitewash" for the lack of a better term. Should I expect a better result or no? I have never had the chance to inspect a barrel that had leading until now, or a barrel that had lead shot through it correctly.

[thx997303]

Antimony wash.

No problems there.

[stainless1911]

Well then, I (think) we have solved the problem. I had deltaenterprizes from this forum make a new expander for the PTE die at .400 instead of the .397 that the Lee die came with, I'll try a couple hundred at that dimension once the part arrives, and will post the results here. I got a really good price on this thing, and am really hpoing that it will do the trick.

If not, what should I change?

[geargnasher]

Just make sure the expander spud expands the case deep enough.

Here's the dope on the cases I sent you: The expander is .4012" in diameter, .320" from where the tip of the expander stops expanding the case to the point that the case mouth stops on the expander bell. In other words, you can seat a boolit at least .300" into the case without squishing the base.

If you're wondering why the expander spud needs to be as big or bigger than the boolit being seated it's because .40 S&W brass is VERY springy, and with the Lee carbide sizer die, it might get sized a bit smaller than it needs to be. All these things work against you if your expander isn't the right size. My brass seems to spring back to .3995" or so after being expanded, so there's still plenty of tension.

Would you give us some specifics on the load you used for those 50 test rounds?

Gear

[stainless1911]

I used the Lyman truncated cone bevel base 180 gr. Water dropped wheel weights. sized to .4015.
Winchester 231 powder @ 5.0 grains,
Winchester WSP primers.
The lube : 1 lb. beeswax, 1 lb paraphin, 13oz. petroleum jelly, 2=-1/2 tbsp. STP oil treatment, and 4-1/2 tbsp. lanolin.
The OAL was 1.140 in Speer brass

[geargnasher]

If you're going to use 231 for this, I would think that using air-cooled wheel weights and backing off to 4.5 grains would be best. You're pushing the pressure limit with 231, and the .40 doesn't work very well with cast boolits when you use a medium-burn-rate pistol powder at near maximum pressure. If you want to keep in the high-performance range (950+ fps is what I consider the beginning of the high end for this cartridge, 1150 being near the limit), use a slower powder. I've had excellent results from Hodgdon Longshot at 1000-1100 fps. using water-quenched wheel weights at 20-22 bhn.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Im confused,
I thought the limit was around 5.8 with 231? at least that's what the Lyman guide (49th) said. Im not getting signs of overpressure, and the recoil is good, less than the store bought rounds. Am I missing something?

[thx997303]

Yeah you seem to be missing something.

Cast doesn't need as high of powder charge in general to perform.

My go to charge in 9mm happens to be .1 gr over starting charge.

It does 1100 fps with a 125 gr boolit.

I usually start a little lower than start IF the powder's burn characteristics allow.

[stainless1911]

Is there a chart somewhere that compares the cast to the copper?

[stainless1911]

I was considering HS-6, or No.9 Accurate, which one would work better?

[prickett]

Is there a chart somewhere that compares the cast to the copper?

IIRC I once saw where you use the minimum jacketed bullet's load as the maximum cast load (where bullets are the same weight).

[geargnasher]

IIRC I once saw where you use the minimum jacketed bullet's load as the maximum cast load (where bullets are the same weight).

So what's everybody doing now, just guessing at load data with no clue what the pressures or velocities are? C'mon, guys, you can't guess at this stuff, the difference between a safe maximum and a KABOOM can be half a grain! And I don't care what any source of data says, "maximum loads" are often right at the SAAMMI max pressures with the specific components and firearm used, no others, and what may be safe in one gun may not be nearly so in another. Change the primer brand or type, headstamp of brass, or projectile (even the brand of the mould or the brand of jacketed bullet being used can have different bearing surfaces or alloy composition), pressures change.

Now, back to my point. Five grains of 231 is probably a little fast for best accuracy and minimal leading at midrange velocity, and if pushed up the problems increase. For the velocities that five grains of 231 are generating, much better accuracy and less fouling would result from using a slower powder. Slow pistol powders build pressure more slowly, "launches" the boolit more slowly, and gets it up to higher velocities with less damage to the boolit, particularly reducing the skidding as the boolit takes the rifling and gets yanked into a spin. Slow powders would be very desirable for low velocity plinking stuff, too, but they tend to burn very dirty at low pressure and often cause failures to go into battery due do powder and lube fouling in the front of the chamber. For midrange and lower, fast, clean powders, moderate pressures, and softer alloys like air-cooled wheel weight metal is perfect because it conforms and seals better with less pressure than the harder stuff. In my experience with this caliber, water-quenched wheel weights are needed for anything over 1,000 fps if you want to have accuracy and no leading, but you won't have very good groups or lead-free bores without using a powder like HS6 or slower. If enough people keep experimenting with cast boolits in the .40 and 10mm, improvements over what I've done with the medium and fast powders, but I don't really see the need to "go against the grain" when loading for this.

It is often missed that the .40 S&W is really a high-pressure cartridge and when using cast boolits might best be loaded with the philosophy one would apply to the .357 Magnum rather than the .45 ACP. At the high end of its pressure/velocity range with cast, the .40 would best be suited to a gas-checked boolit.

Gear

[stainless1911]

So what's everybody doing now, just guessing at load data with no clue what the pressures or velocities are?

Gear

No, I didn't know I was doing anything wrong because I was using the Lyman guide, and the Lyman mold that I am casting with is listed in one of their charts in the book. It shows 15 different powders for that boolet, and their minimum to maximum charges, so, I thought I was right on track.

It shows 231 starting at 4.3 and max at 5.8. I tried loading 25 each, at 4.3, 4.5, 4.7 and so on, until I got a flat primer at 5.4 IIRC. I had no Idea that I was doing it wrong. The other book I have is the Speer#14, but doesnt give load data for a .40.

The Lyman guide shows HS-6 with a starting load of 7.0 with a velocity of 976, and CUP of 18,600, and a max charge of 8.4 with a velocity of 1129, and CUP of 22,800. What do you think of those numbers?

Is the guide that far off even with their own molds?

ETA, I am using a 3" barrel, (as measured from the breech face), if that makes a difference.

[geargnasher]

No, I didn't know I was doing anything wrong because I was using the Lyman guide, and the Lyman mold that I am casting with is listed in one of their charts in the book. It shows 15 different powders for that boolet, and their minimum to maximum charges, so, I thought I was right on track. You thought so? So why do you suppose you're having so much trouble, then? Perhaps you miss my point. I've been sharing with you the results I have achieved through several thousand test rounds with eleven powders and nearly a hundred load combinations, including three alloys. I have found some things work better than others, and I'm telling you that 5 grains of 231 is not your best choice for what you're trying to do.

It shows 231 starting at 4.3 and max at 5.8. I tried loading 25 each, at 4.3, 4.5, 4.7 and so on, until I got a flat primer at 5.4 IIRC. I had no Idea that I was doing it wrong. The other book I have is the Speer#14, but doesnt give load data for a .40. Good. Now where was your best accuracy and least leading?

The Lyman guide shows HS-6 with a starting load of 7.0 with a velocity of 976, and CUP of 18,600, and a max charge of 8.4 with a velocity of 1129, and CUP of 22,800. What do you think of those numbers? What makes you think that you, with a three-inch gun, using WDWW alloy sized .0015" over groove diameter, different brand of cases, and automatic gun will have even remotely similar results to the test gun, which was a universal receiver, locked breech, .401 groove, Lyman #2 alloy (air cooled), sized at groove (.401"), and using Winchester brass? Do you see how that can affect your results? The point here is to do what is safe and work toward what works best.

Is the guide that far off even with their own molds? No, it is the end user and his particular set of circumstances that can be off of Lyman's otherwise fairly decent data.

ETA, I am using a 3" barrel, (as measured from the breech face), if that makes a difference. 25% less barrel than the test gun certainly makes a difference.

Load books are a guide, they will not lead you to the holy grail, especially with cast. Some things work better than others, and cast boolts can be very finicky, especially when pushed near their limits. Our journey is to discover the likes and dislikes of particular calibers, and especially the individual guns we own, I'm trying to show you some things that worked for me, and point out things you are doing which exacerbate your difficulties.

Gear

[stainless1911]

I wasn't trying to take issue with anything you had said. Fact is, I know that I dont know what I am doing, which is why I'm here. I was just trying to let everybody know what information I had, and what I was doing, so that the problems could be sorted out. Im at the steep end of a learning curve here.

[stainless1911]

My best accuracy was with 5.1 gn, but I cant take that seriously because it wasnt until I got your cases that I saw an improvement in leading. That was several weeks later. Since I got the best accuracy in the middle of the Lyman chart, I figured I was doing it right.

[geargnasher]

I had similar results, best accuracy with medium pistol powders at medium velocity. However, that isn't the best situation for WDWW alloy, but you were running pressures up high enough to make it work out ok with correctly sized boolits. Again, if you want to run the 231, at least try going back down to 4.5 and use air-cooled alloy (AFTER you get your new expander, of course!). Correct boolit fit will take care of most of the leading, but balancing chamber pressure to the alloy is also very important to accuracy and prevention of lead deposits. With a short barrel, you may be best served with HS6 and WDWW going the speed of sound, or maybe with Titegroup and soft range scrap tumble-lubed in liquid Alox and going out the muzzle at 750 fps., it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish balanced with how well the individual gun cooperates with your efforts in achieving it.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Well I am trying to develop a really accurate round that I can also use for rapid fire and some tactical SD training. I also plan on carrying these rounds in my primary SD gun on a daily basis, so I still want the round to hit hard if needed. I dont want to practice thousands of rounds with one load, and then carry a different one for self defense. An accurate hard hitting self defense round seems like a good target to shoot for.

[geargnasher]

Take it for what it's worth, but my advice would be to carry a quality factory SD ammo for SD purposes, practice with it occasionally, and work up a cast load of similar recoil/point-of-impact for practice. If you can control the recoil under rapid-fire, try using your WDWW with a high-pressure lube, like White Label Carnauba Red, and use Alliant Blue Dot worked up pretty hot. BD needs pressure to get a good burn and keep a clean chamber, and your home-made lube formula might not be up to the task when you get over 30K PSI, which you will at the top end of safe loads with BD.

The reason I say carry factory ammo isn't the "Ayoob paranoia", it's a matter of sheer reliablility. Your pistol was designed to operate with jacketed ammo, and as you now know, loaded diameter is smaller and chamber fouling potentially less than when shooting lubed lead boolits. Would you trust your life to your handloaded lead right now? I do in several guns, but they've been proven over and over again under all kinds of conditions. I'll never be convinced that the M&P .40 I have is 100% reliable with lead, your gun may prove to be different, and I hope it does.

The reason I recommend Blue Dot and hot loads is that your point of impact will be similar to factory jacketed loads, or at least my gun shot that way. My gun shot about 4-6" low at 25 yards with medium-to-fast powders unless I was loading them so light they barely cycled the action, but shot dead-on with higher charges of Blue Dot. I'd start with published load data and work up until it burns clean but stop before you go over book max or if you see overpressure signs. Compare with factory stuff using your "Wrist Chronograph" and see what happens.

Gear

[stainless1911]

If I go with HS-6 WDWW, how much charge should I use. I have an OAL of 1.140

And If I were to try to copycat the Winchester PDX-1 JHP 165gn, what should I do? I like those rounds in my gun, they feed perfectly, they shoot straight, and I have shot them into and through different things, sometimes recovering the bollets, and have been very impressed with the results. I think I will continue to carry these PDX-1 rounds for SD. I have noticed that they do flatten the primers though, that raises some questions.

[stainless1911]

BTW, I am very grateful for all the help thus far.

I have a pound and a half of WST left, someone told me that 231 was better, so I tried it, but could you recommend a charge for the WST that I could use until it's gone?

[geargnasher]

If I go with HS-6 WDWW, how much charge should I use. I have an OAL of 1.140

And If I were to try to copycat the Winchester PDX-1 JHP 165gn, what should I do? I like those rounds in my gun, they feed perfectly, they shoot straight, and I have shot them into and through different things, sometimes recovering the bollets, and have been very impressed with the results. I think I will continue to carry these PDX-1 rounds for SD. I have noticed that they do flatten the primers though, that raises some questions.

They flatten primers because they are probably running over 22,000 Copper units of pressure, or possibly it's aggravated by the excessive headspace that is natural to automatic handgun platforms with straight-walls, the primers can back out a fraction upon initial ignition and then get really swaged into the corners of the pocket when full chamber pressure is reached. I wouldn't worry about it with factory ammo unless you get really bad impressions from the chamber machining marks on the brass, or bulged case heads.

As for HS6, it's a good choice based upon what my gun and tests showed, and I would start with Lyman's data which shows seven grains starting load with a 175 grain boolit. My particular combination of gun/components showed pressure signs at 8.2 (under book max of 8.4), and 8.0 was still pretty stiff, keep that in mind as you work up. I settled on 7.6 grains at about 1020 fps in my M&P, of course your results will vary. HS6 meters extremely well and is a good, consistent powder of the perfect loading density for the Lee 175 TC boolit seated at 1.118" 7.6 grains almost touches the boolit base, 8.0 grains is ever-so-slightly compressed. You are using a longer COAL, so there should be plenty of room. Watch the compression thing, it will make your pressures increase dramatically.

One more thing, HS6 is typical of the slower pistol powers in that it doesn't burn really cleanly until it gets to a certain pressure range, so for lighter loads it will leave partially burned bits of powder grains in the cases, chamber and barrel. When it starts burning clean, your pressures are right for the powder.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Thanks.

I was having that problem with unburnt powder when I was running WST.