4th Ed. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook Review [Archive]

Dragoon 45

11-29-2010, 01:53 PM

I got my copy last Friday. Read it over the weekend. My overall impression is very good.

Mike Venturino wrote most of the chapters which are easy to understand and does contain info of interest to experienced casters, but as others have opined the book is more geared towards beginning casters. Bryan Pierce wrote a chapter on lead fouling which I found interesting and provided a better understanding of reasons for fouling in revolvers. There is also a chapter on the physical properties of lead and lead alloys. Also included is an updated burn rate chart for powders in the back of the book. A cross reference provides top punches matched to individual bullet molds which I found handy also.

While there was a chapter on bullet lube, it was general in nature. I wish Mike had included more info on how to actually lube a bullet using a lube-sizer as that is an area that I have always had problems with. I just can never seem to get the lube-sizer adjusted right to lube bullets without making a mess. I gave up and switched to pan lubing as a result of my problems in this area.

In the load data section, all Lyman moulds are covered for each caliber, while normally at least 2 Lee molds, 2 RCBS molds, and 2 SAECO molds are included also. The new .327 Fed Magnum, 6.5-284, 30 AR, and other new calibers have data included. I was disappointed that some of the older BP cartridges were left out, i.e. .40-90, any of the Sharps Bottlenoses, etc.

As expected, the handbook extolled the virtures of Lyman products, but I did not find that a problem. All of the Lyman products I have used work well and as Lyman published the book that is to be expected.

For the price, I believe the book is worth purchasing, if for no other reason than the updated load data in the back half of the book.

MT Gianni

11-29-2010, 02:42 PM

Were new powders included?

abunaitoo

11-29-2010, 06:09 PM

How does it compare to the 3rd edition????
Anything new in it????
I have the 2nd and 3rd, and the're almost the same.
3rd had a little more info, but not much more load date.

Bigjohn

11-29-2010, 08:05 PM

I suppose I had better make room in the bookcase for a copy. The only problem would be which book to get rid of or should I just build another bookcase. :-P

I think I need a new bookcase. :groner:

*Paladin*

11-29-2010, 08:19 PM

Thanks for the review! I was going to order the book this week. I'm a complete newbie when it comes to casting, so I hope theres some good beginner info!

canyon-ghost

11-29-2010, 08:41 PM

Thecyberguy

11-29-2010, 08:57 PM

Were new powders included?

I didn't look through it all yet.....just got it from Midway today. But, I did see trail Boss listed on one.
TCG

troy_mclure

11-29-2010, 09:00 PM

Paladin, if the 4th Edition is anything like the Cast Bullet Manual 3rd Edition, it will be perfect for beginners. That's how I got into casting, still have a copy at hand. They're good reference material, for sure.

Ron

i was on this forum for a few months before i bought the 3rd edition.

it was a let down. from the few months on this forums i learned far more than that book contained.

Dragoon 45

11-30-2010, 12:48 AM

Were new powders included?

I probably should have said new loads worked up with powders that I had not seen used in that cartridge before in anybody else's data. For instance a lot of loads for Trail Boss in calibers I have never seen it used in before. Another instance is that I have never seen load data for the .22-250 using 5744 before, but it is included with all cast bullets in that cartridge and listed as the potentially most accurate load with all the bullets listed. I have used a lot of 5744 in my big bores (.45-70 and .40-65) but was surprised to see it used in a .22 caliber.

From what checking I have done from the 3rd edition to the 4th, there is considerable difference in powder selection in the cartridges I reload for. I am sure that there is probably a lot of overlap in some cartridges, but there is enough new data to make the book worth buying.

Cherokee

11-30-2010, 09:52 AM

It is out of stock at Midway already.

oldhickory

11-30-2010, 10:39 AM

It is out of stock at Midway already.

I ordered one from Midsouth Shooter's Supply Sunday, got an e-mail yesterday saying it shipped.

Moonie

11-30-2010, 10:47 AM

Just ordered mine at Midsouth, cheaper than midway too.

AZ-Stew

11-30-2010, 11:52 AM

...Another instance is that I have never seen load data for the .22-250 using 5744 before, but it is included with all cast bullets in that cartridge and listed as the potentially most accurate load with all the bullets listed. I have used a lot of 5744 in my big bores (.45-70 and .40-65) but was surprised to see it used in a .22 caliber

5744 is Mike Venturino's favorite cast bullet rifle powder. If you read his articles, you'll see it a lot in the load tables, and he has pretty much said so outright. He claims it is one of very few powders that can be loaded in rifle cartridges having enough bulk that it nearly fills the case, eliminating fillers, and has never caused him a hang- or mis-fire. His choice of this powder doesn't surprise me.

I haven't used it enough to comment one way or the other.

Regards,

Stew

cajun shooter

11-30-2010, 01:00 PM

Paladin, the Lyman book is good to have as they all have plenty of material that you will use and go back to for reference. Thank You For Your Service And WELCOME HOME!!

Leadbelly

11-30-2010, 03:15 PM

My copy must be missing a Page. Only 3 different boolits for the 30-30. Come on Lyman it is perhaps the most reloaded round in North America. Three new undersized molds in a row and now this I am about done. RCBS how but stepping up and showing Lyman how to put out a real Manual!

Recluse

11-30-2010, 03:36 PM

I suppose I had better make room in the bookcase for a copy. The only problem would be which book to get rid of or should I just build another bookcase. :-P

I think I need a new bookcase. :groner:

New bookcase, my friend. New bookcase.

I'm adding another wall of bookshelves upstairs in our loft and library area. The wife wants to *gasp* get rid of some books, and I told her SHE might go before some of those books might go.

To be fair, she is willing to get rid of her books, but I'm not giving up any of mine.

I'm gonna have to check out this new Lyman book. It sounds like a good addition to the (already crowded) shelves.

:coffee:

John D

11-30-2010, 04:09 PM

thank you for your service and welcome home!!

ditto

Char-Gar

11-30-2010, 04:18 PM

I have Lyman Cast Bullet books numbers 1,2 and 3. Number 4 is a must have for me. I am really glad they got Mike to do it.

ph4570

11-30-2010, 04:20 PM

A big brown truck delivered mine today. I will begin reading it this evening.

Hardcast416taylor

11-30-2010, 04:25 PM

Only had a chance to skim thru mine that came yesterday from MidSouth. Couldn`t help but notice the virtual disappearance of most, if not all, the old Lyman molds. Only new and currently made Lyman molds listed, as far as I can see. Some calibers are only listed with a LEE or RCBS or a Saco mold for their load data. I did notice a few newer powders listed. I`ll read and compare data more carefully tonight. Don`t get me wrong, I`m glad they have made a new manual. Just saddened to see the dropping of the older molds and data.Robert

old turtle

11-30-2010, 04:53 PM

I will obtain one but all I have is old molds. Included in the old is me, I guess.

mrbill2

11-30-2010, 09:30 PM

I too think some of the more populer older molds should have made the book. Alot of these molds still are for sale on the auction sites. 311407 is just one for the 30/30. 311334 and 311413 are candidates for other 30 calibers. No ballistic tables either. Saw nothing on heat treating cast bullets either. All this don't matter if you have the third edition, but those new to the hobby would have benefited.

*Paladin*

11-30-2010, 11:35 PM

Paladin, the Lyman book is good to have as they all have plenty of material that you will use and go back to for reference. Thank You For Your Service And WELCOME HOME!!

ditto

Thanks guys! I'm going to order the book tonight...

1Shirt

12-01-2010, 12:29 AM

I like it! Can always find flaws in reloading manuals, but think the all of the Lymans going all the way back are the go to manuals for beginners as well as us oldsters!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

44fanatic

12-01-2010, 10:54 AM

It is out of stock at Midway already.

Just ordered mine this morning from Midsouth and going down there to pick it up today.

RayinNH

12-01-2010, 11:50 AM

I bought mine Sunday at the local gun shop, for the wife to give to me for Christmas. I didn't look inside, much :sad:. I wanted some bit of a surprise...Ray

markinalpine

12-01-2010, 02:51 PM

Wholesale Hunter still has it in stock. $17.07 plus S&H, Tax, Title, License, Dealer Prep........:kidding:
http://www.wholesalehunter.com/product.asp?productid=59019
Mark :coffeecom

Ironrangenate

12-01-2010, 10:18 PM

I am fairly new to casting so I am ordering one tomorrow. Thanks to all for input.

kmag

12-02-2010, 03:35 AM

Bought the 4th Ed. at a local gun shop. Like all the other 20 or so reloading manuals it will be good as a loading reference. Uses a lot of new powders that I don't own or plan to purchase. Reduced my powder types about 15 years ago from 32 to 8 or 9 for all the handguns rifles and shotguns I own.
Don't know why they compiled some of the data using both a firearm and a pressure barrell, at least they used the same length with both. But, did not note which uas used in the volocity tables. Probably makes little difference.
Like all Lyman manuals in the past, this one shows loads in bold type to desiginate the potentially most accurate load. I have wondered for years what criteria is used for making this determination. It's sort of like reading about someones "Pet Loads". They have not worked for me in most cases.
Seems to me they used more reasonable barrel lengths even in the pressure barrels.
The book has 18 articles in the front of the book, 16 were written by Mike Venturino. It has a reference section in the back that has lots of good information for loaders especially if using Lyman products,
Glad I bought it, will spend a lot more time reading it when I get a chance.

Can anyone tell me how to get my spell checker to work woth this program?

oldhickory

12-02-2010, 08:12 AM

The little brown truck of happiness delivered mine yesterday from Midsouth! I'll look into it this evening after I get done casting with my new RCBS 30-180-FN mold.:lovebooli

Doc Highwall

12-02-2010, 10:05 AM

Sinclair International called me at the house yesterday and asked if I was still interested and I said yes, just waiting for it to get here.

odoh

12-02-2010, 10:14 PM

Got mine and thumbed the pages quickly and missed data for 460 Rowland which wasn't included but when looking at the alloy forumlas, something left me scratching my head ~ I've seen the formulations formats before and wasn't never ever comfortable in my understanding.

Could you guys w/the new edition visit pg 297 formula table B and see if its correct?

pmeisel

12-02-2010, 10:38 PM

Read most of it last night. A good read. A good add to the reference shelf.

Lively Boy

12-03-2010, 11:13 AM

ok I got the book and i'll say needed it. now i'll get the 3rd book, just to make sure i get the info. But i wish the info on lead was more in laymans terms. i can see it's good info. but can't get thru it....makes me want to snooze. otherwise i'm glad i got it.

mrbill2

12-03-2010, 11:21 AM

Odoh
The original formulas used 50/50 bar solder. Which is 1/2 lb. lead and 1/2 lb. tin. Why they chose to word it the way it they did I don't know. Is it wrong, no. Is it confusing, Yes.

odoh

12-03-2010, 06:05 PM

Mr B ~ Thanks. My mind would have said 5½lbs Lead instead of ½ lb Lead followed later in the table 5 lbs Lead. I was really concerned that the ½ lb Lead component was really meant to be ½lb Antimony and not lead. Might've been better to have said 1 lb 50/50.

Again, thanks

Doc Highwall

12-03-2010, 07:07 PM

Mine came today. They took out all the data for the TC Encore and Contender single shot pistols.

Rocky Raab

12-04-2010, 11:28 AM

Mine finally came yesterday afternoon. I gave it a quick read-through and came away both delighted and disappointed. The "How and Why" section of 14 chapters by Mike Venturino are a great lesson on all things cast. The two chapters on cast bullet benchrest shooting interested me not at all - although others might dote on it. The lengthy PhD dissertation on lead alloys is probably going to be way over the heads of 99% of readers - but it sure answers a lot of misunderstood things about lead alloys.

The load data section covers almost all current and many past favorite cartridges from the blackpowder era. Bullets from all Lyman plus some Saeco/Redding, RCBS and Lee moulds are covered. There are no "Ruger and T'C Only" loads at all, which makes sense. That kind of data is almost always restricted to jacketed bullets only, after all. Powder selection is excellent and appropriate for the power levels sought with a given bullet.

My disappointment lies in the fairly poor proofreading job done. I found numerous grammar and word errors in the text articles. That's bad enough, but it makes me uneasy about the load data, where errors and typos might be more serious.

All in all, it's a very good book, much needed after a 30-year lapse during which many new moulds, cartridges and powders have been introduced.

GabbyM

12-04-2010, 11:45 AM

Happy with mine. Only read a couple articles so far.

Has several rifle bullets listed that I have in other brand moulds listed in 22, 6mm and 270 calibers. Lyman list a few loads for Lee rifle bullets but in 30 caliber at least no RCBS or Saeco. The only rifle bullet I have that isn’t’ listed is the RCBS 30-180-FN. No big surprise as that bullet is direct competition for the Lyman #311041.

In Handgun data they have many RCBS, Saeco and Lee bullets listed. Found my 200 grain 44 caliber Saeco #420 and my 357 Saeco #354 in rifle and hand gun for this 180 grain gas checked bullet.

All BC and SD numbers are listed! Was quite surprised to see the spread between my 6mm 87 grain Saeco compared to the 95 grain RCBS bullet. I really like that little Saeco #243 bullet. But the RCBS has it trumped in BC by 99 points. .159 to .258. Unfortunately Lyman list no loads for the 6mm Loverin 84 grain #245496 that buffalo Arms still sells. BC on this bullet as listed in Lyman 3rd edition is .202. Which if accurate is higher than the Saeco pointy bullet. I’d of never guessed that. Guess if you have an old bullet mould you need an old book.

felix

12-04-2010, 12:19 PM

"the fairly poor proofreading job done" is so commonplace any more that I am becoming suspicious of any writing that is too correct, especially from political arenas. 99 percent of the readers could care less about any PhD level info no matter the subject matter. Even SEC legal matters are being dumbed down so the average guy with money will buy stocks and bonds again. All this proves to me the middle class is just about gone as intended. ... felix

Trapshooter

12-05-2010, 10:18 AM

Amen Felix. They have a hard time consuming it, how could they know how to produce it.

Trapshooter

felix

12-05-2010, 06:01 PM

An old one, I'm sure!!!! ... felix

Best Cookies ever!
(by someone like Forster Brooks????)

1 cup of water
1 tsp baking soda
1 cup of sugar
1 tsp salt
1 cup of brown sugar
1 Lemon juice
4 large eggs
1 cup nuts
2 cups of dried fruit
1 bottle Jose Cuero Tequila

Sample the Cuero to check quality. Take a large bowl, check the Cuero
again to be sure it is of the highest quality, pour one level cup and
drink. Turn on the electric mixer. Beat one cup of butter in a large
fluffy bowl. Add one teaspoon of sugar. Beat again. At this point it's
best to make sure the Cuero o is still OK, try another cup just in case.

First, turn off the mixer thingy. Break 2 leggs and add to the bowl and
chuck in the cup of dried fruit, Pick the frigging fruit off floor. Mix on the turner. If the fried druit gets stuck in the beaterers just! pry it loose with a drewscriver. Sample the Cuero to check for tonsisticity.
Next, sift two cups of salt, or something. Check the Jose Cuero.

Now shift the lemon juice and strain your nuts. Add one table. Add a spoon of sugar, or somefink. Whatever you can find. Greash the oven. Turn the cake tin 360 degrees and try not to fall over. Don't forget to beat off the turner. Finally, throw the bowl through the window, finish the Cose Juervo and make sure to put the stove in the dishwasher.

CHERRY MISTMAS

markinalpine

12-06-2010, 02:40 PM

Copied and forwarded :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

Mark

Dale53

12-06-2010, 05:32 PM

I just received my copy of Lyman's 4th Edition today. Quick service from Midway.

I checked the data of the cartridges I load (mostly pistol and revolver these days). The newer powders were listed in many cases as well as the oldies (that is a PLUS for me).

I was also impressed by the use of cast bullets from other manufacturers. That is MOST helpful.

I have just read the first two articles by our own Mike Venturino and am quite impressed. The information is not new to me (I have been casting for sixty years) but very well presented and accurate. Nice writing. As normal these days, there are more typos than needed. That happens because we no longer have proof readers (everyone is depending on "Spell Checker" and that is a poor excuse for a proof reader). At any rate, I am finding that on every new book, including Kindle versions of books, etc. It is deplorable but that is just the way it is, today.

The most serious criticism I could offer, is the lack of "Ruger Only" and Thompson Center Contender loads. The .44 Special has been underloaded by the factories for nearly 100 years. That is a FACT. That can be a VERY useful hunting revolver caliber without danger with loads safe in any modern .44 Special. The same applies to the large frame Rugers regarding the .45 Colt.

Lyman could have "stepped up to the plate" and offered data for both with proper disclaimers and done a real service to the reloading public in helping to keep us all safe. If they supplied actual pressures of the heavier loads then we would have authoritative information that can help keep us from harm.

For myself, I am happy to rely on Brian Pearce and John Linebaugh's information but others would be much happier if someone from the Reloading Manufacturing Industry supplied that data.

All in all, I consider it a very worthwhile purchase and if the rest of Mike's articles are as good as the first couple (as I KNOW they will be) it will be a good book to recommend to a newbie.

Dale53

casterofboolits

12-07-2010, 11:29 AM

Looks like I'm gonna have to order a copy just for the heck of it as I locked in my favorite loads a couple decades ago and see no reason to change them. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I like the idea of loads for cast boolits from other than Lyman moulds as I have Lyman, Saeco and H&G.

JIMinPHX

12-07-2010, 08:44 PM

Is there any data in there for 10mm cast loads?

thegreatdane

12-07-2010, 08:53 PM

Yep. Quite a few

*Paladin*

12-07-2010, 10:29 PM

Got the book today! So far, looks good! Looks like quite a bit of load data.

GabbyM

12-08-2010, 04:15 AM

Is there any data in there for 10mm cast loads?

Six Bullets.

Lee #401-145-SWC
Lyman #401654 , #401043 , #401638
RCBS #40-180-FN , #10mm-200-SWC

NHlever

12-08-2010, 10:56 AM

I'll begin by saying that I'm really happy to have a new cast boolit manual. There is much useful information in there that hasn't been available. On the other hand, I am not so happy about Lyman, and Mike deciding which calibers we will load for. There is an obvious difference in the amount of info on the old single shot calibers, and the more commonly loaded ones. Thanks Mike, but please come down from the place of having guns that perhaps only one in one thousand guys can afford, and give us some credit for knowing something too. Even WalMart knows enough to stock 30-30, and 35 Remington ammo at reasonable prices. Heck, you can even buy rifles in those calibers at some of their stores. It seems that the full / semi-auto calibers, the .223, .308, and 30-06 are well covered as are all the old single shot calibers, but to have information on three times as many boolits for the 38-55 as for the 30-30 just doesn't make sense, and continuing the "nothing over 1600 fps for microgroove and then with hard boolits" myth is doing yet another generation of casters a disservice. The .35 Remington, .358 Win, and .35 Whelen are great cast boolit calibers, and are almost dismissed in the new book. Why do manufacturers think no one buys those guns? It is almost as bad as bringing out a new, good field handgun round, and then charging over $120 for 100 rounds of ammo. (.327 Federal)
Oh well, I'll step down from my box now, and get on with the day.... if I didn't have "Quick Load" I would feel obligated to go look for another 30-06........ or 40-65 perhaps, something I can find load data for. Time to retire the useless 30-30 I guess.

MT Gianni

12-08-2010, 11:01 AM

Not uselsss 30-30 by any means but the number of Ly 30 cal molds has dropped dowm tp 30% of what it used to be. I see it as a reflection of what is being sold new rather than for custom molds or the 30-30 with new powders.

JIMinPHX

12-08-2010, 07:44 PM

Sportsman's Warehouse didn't have any in stock today. I'll have to look around a little more for a copy.

markinalpine

12-08-2010, 11:01 PM

Sportsman's Warehouse didn't have any in stock today. I'll have to look around a little more for a copy.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1073523&postcount=27
Still in stock according to their website as of this writing. Their shipping charges can be a little pricey, but they're asking $17.07 for the book itself.

1Shirt

12-09-2010, 08:37 AM

This thread shows to go ya that you can't satisfy anybody all of the time. To Me, and excellent publication to go along with a number of other manuals. They are all reference materials.
1Shirt!:coffee:

Moonie

12-09-2010, 11:01 AM

I decided to let SWMBO get this for me for Christmas, she however has decided I didn't need it and is getting me a mauser 98 that I've been eyeing for a few years from my kids step-father.

Darn, looks like I'll have to order it for myself lol

sleeper1428

12-09-2010, 09:38 PM

I wrote my review under the thread, 'Lyman 4th Edition Cast Bullet Handbook'. Much the same findings as others in this thread have noted with the addition of a couple of more of Mike's biases. That was perhaps my biggest complaint - that there ought to have been a greater number of authors with a wider variety of experience in casting and shooting lead alloy boolits.

sleeper1428

pmeisel

12-09-2010, 10:08 PM

Still enjoying. I would have liked more load data, though -- only 2 444 Marlin loads, and not as many options for 357 and 38 as I would have liked to see..... but it will sit next to my chair for a couple months. Digesting the metallurgy chapters very slowly ....

Bret4207

12-10-2010, 07:47 AM

If I may make a suggestion, get all the versions of the Lyman books. I find myself getting a lot more out of editions #1 and #3 than #2, but #2 has quite a bit of stuff missing from #1 and #3. I'll get #4 when they hit the bargain shelves.

cajun shooter

12-10-2010, 11:01 AM

Dale53

12-10-2010, 11:35 AM

cajun shooter;
+1 - You have hit the nail on the head! The casting information, by Mike Venturino, is probably the best information I have seen from a single person. Well thought out, well written, and should be VERY useful to the newbie as well as the experienced.

I do agree that Lyman should have included more information on several calibers that I am interested in. However, the addition of loading data for other cast bullet mould manufacturers should be VERY useful to a LOT of us. I also like the inclusion of more data on the more modern powders.

All in all, excellent job, in my view. Mike is to be commended. No single book can be everything to all people. This book is a welcome addition to my shop and will be USED!

Dale53

Rocky Raab

12-10-2010, 12:17 PM

Some of the cartridges not covered include the 357 Maximum, the 307 and 356 Win and the 30 TC. Those are the ones I've thought of. Any other rounds you folks would have liked to have seen?

This is for my published review, BTW.

Also, is the metallurgy section over the heads of some of you? Too advanced? Or of great use?

Doc Highwall

12-10-2010, 12:43 PM

I was hoping for the 6mmBR and 7mmBR. Also when looking through it they no longer have a list of moulds that they have made and that some of the numbers were available in more then one weight like 358430 in 150 and 195 grains.

AZ-Stew

12-10-2010, 12:49 PM

Rocky,

I'm in the process of reading through it now and I haven't yet gotten to the metallurgy section. I'll get back to you on that one.

Two cartridges I noticed as glaringly absent are the .357 SIG and the .221 Fireball. I don't shoot the SIG, but I noticed it missing. The Fireball, on the other hand, I'm finding to be a really good small bore cast cartridge. I think the smaller case capacity helps. I have one of the Remington 700 Classic rifles so chambered and a 10 inch Contender barrel. I've just started working with cast in the cartridge and am finding that, with the right load, it can be a stellar performer. Too bad there's no data for it. My best results with it so far used 4198 powder, and the worst used Unique. I got the data from the old RCBS Cast Bullet book.

If I recall correctly, the .41 Magnum data was, with one exception, all "Magnum" loads. Only one midrange load. And I don't think there was any data for a Keith-style bullet in that caliber. I don't have the book with me right now, but that's what I recall from a glance over the data a couple of weeks ago.

Regards,

Stew

Rocky Raab

12-10-2010, 01:11 PM

Excellent observations, Stew. Thanks.

steg

12-10-2010, 04:15 PM

! was hoping for some good loads in .38/.357 using 195Gr cast, nothing, and the choices of loads in the 45/70 were pitiful, as for me I wasted my money, I should have scanned through it before I bought it. And as to the metalurgy section, I don't know about anyone else but the materials I get are basically hand to mouth, I use what I can get my hands on, WW's with a little tin to aid in filling out, and plumbers pipe or the equilivent for slugs, book is very overated in my opinion...............steg

kcajeel

12-10-2010, 04:55 PM

I received my 4th edition a couple of days ago and found this forum topic just now. It's a good place for me to make a couple of comments.
I'm fairly new to casting but not new to shooting. I'm 65 years old and my fatherinlaw has casted for me for years. He had a class 8 FFL casting and reloading business. He's finally quit that at 84 leaving me to do my own. So I've been around it for some time.
I'm enjoying the book. There are a lot of tricks and hints that I really need. But I have the feeling that I'm missing a lot of information. Mike Venturino does a marvelous job. Makes it a real easy read for the, new to casting, but I still feel I'm missing lots. I'm still going to find me a good copy of the third edition and put it up for reference. After buying a old copy of "Complete Guide Of Handloading" by Phillip Sharpe recently. I learned I really enjoy reading the old information and trying to sort out the still useful parts. I'm wondering what the second edition would have in it, lol.
Jack Lee

sleeper1428

12-10-2010, 04:57 PM

I agree that Bret is doing the same as I. The previous manuals have enough to cover what I do for now. But I have never been one that bought anything fresh off the press. Sleeper 1428, Mike Venturino is no different than the others. He writes about what he knows and does. Mike is also a very long time caster and shooter and he tells the truth which is rare these days. If you only have one person to receive information from then Mike is a good choice. What you fail to think about is that all of us are a product of the people we are around. If you are smart you listen to those who are the ones at the top. Mike has shot with and hung around with some of the best cast bullet people in the world. Steve Garbe his one time partner is one, Dave Gullo (Owner of Buffalo Arms) and many others that would fill a book. Mike has soaked up info from all of these people and is kind enough to pass it along to us who will never meet nor speak with these men.I agree 100% that he favors the older guns but we have plenty of writers who give us articles that are about guns they have never seen nor fired. I will put my trust in Mike.

You appear to be implying that I don't trust Mike's information and that is simply not true. What I said was that with only a single author doing virtually ALL the chapters in a handbook such as this one, it's inevitable that that author's biases will, to one extent or another, be allowed to sneak into print. That was what I was attempting to point out in regard to the use of fillers - discouraged by both Lyman and Mike but used quite successfully by many others who have an equally long history in regard to boolit casting and shooting. And in regard to the lead alloys mentioned by Mike, after stating that no mention had been made of one of the most common casting alloys, specifically, Taracorp Magnum Alloy (92-6-2), I stated that the likely reason for the lack of any mention was due to the fact that Lyman would prefer that casters use their formula for Lyman #2 (90-5-5) because many of their moulds were designed to be used with that specific alloy.

In both of these criticisms I was not, repeat not, attacking Mike. All I was pointing out was that I personally would have liked to see a wider variety of authors so that I would have a more balanced presentation of many of the topics. This would then allow the reader to decide for himself/herself on the best approach to any given casting/reloading problem. But as I say, this is only my personal opinion and reflects the way I chose to approach most subjects. I try to read a variety of opinions, make note of a number of suggestions and only then do I come to a tentative plan regarding how I will proceed. Others may wish to read only one man's opinion and for them this is an excellent handbook, clearly reflecting Mike's experience and his distilled opinions on each subject. For my part, this will likely be the last edition of this handbook that I will ever purchase, mostly because at the age of 72 I'm not likely to be around 30 years from now when the next edition comes out but also because rather than read one person's opinions, I'll opt to read the excellent posts to this forum wherein I am usually able to find something related to any problem or question I might have in regard to casting and/or shooting.

sleeper1428

Rocky Raab

12-10-2010, 05:15 PM

sleeper1428

12-10-2010, 06:02 PM

For the record, sleeper, I thought your remarks were cogent and inciteful. I think Mike might even agree the next time he visits here.

Some of the caliber choices reflect Mike's predilections, also. Load data for the 40-65 and 56-50? I doubt there are a hundred shooters using those rounds outside the BPCR scene. Heck, there might not be a hundred including BPCR. I have no problem with including them, but if it came down to page space and somebody decided on those two instead of the 307 and 356 Win - or a few more moulds in 30-30 - then Mike's influence may be considered a bit overarching.

Thank you. I really wasn't trying to dis Mike in any way but it appears that some people will take any criticism as an attack. Anyway, I agree with you when it comes to several calibers being omitted. Take for instance the 6.8 SPC which is quickly becoming a very standard military round and will likely be finding its way into the ranks of cast boolit shooters. Also there was no mention of the 30 BR, a caliber that has become a real favorite for many shooters competing in matches sponsored by the Cast Bullet Association. All one has to do is read through the listing of matches in the journal of the CBA, The Fouling Shot, to see that the 30 BR dominates in many categories. But just as with the 307 and 356 Win, no mention is made of either of these cartridges. And it's just this lack of coverage that led me to suggest that if comments regarding what cartridges to include had been solicited from a wider group of experienced casters/shooters, the data section would have been much more extensive and inclusive. And I'm sure that having said this, I'll get plenty of flak telling me that Mike was just writing about what he knew. But my answer to that would be precisely that point - that one man simply isn't going to be able to know the in's and out's of each and every cartridge and that's why enlisting the aid of multiple authors would very likely have enhanced the usefulness of this handbook for a much wider group of shooters.

sleeper1428

Doc Highwall

12-10-2010, 06:02 PM

felix

12-10-2010, 06:17 PM

Sleeper, you are an excellent writer! Good expression. ... felix

Rocky Raab

12-10-2010, 06:47 PM

He's 72, Felix. He actually was taught grammar in school. It shows, does it not?

felix

12-10-2010, 08:32 PM

Yeah, Rocky, it is simply refreshing for a change. ... felix

AZ-Stew

12-10-2010, 08:51 PM

Rocky,

One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that I have found (so far) a number of typos and other minor items that should have been caught in the proof reading. I hate to be picky, but some of these things just jump off the page at me as if they were printed in red ink.

Regards,

Stew

Rocky Raab

12-11-2010, 11:11 AM

Me too, Stew. I'm a writer, have been an editor, AND had 16+ years of real schooling. Those errors are going to be mentioned in my review.

MakeMineA10mm

12-13-2010, 08:10 PM

I wish it was like Cartridges of the World where each new book just adds more information and not just make it X number of pages. I view casting as adding to shooting and allowing ammunition for cartridges that are no longer made.

I agree wholeheartedly; however, I think the realism of the situation is that Lyman has found the marketing price point for the manual, and if they keep adding pages of data, they will either have to cut back on the articles (what I would prefer) or make the book thicker, which drives up price.

Folks like us would not scoff at paying $25 or $30 for a cast boolit manual that included most (if not all) calibers and was 500 pages thick, but I'm sure Lyman has figured out that this type of book would drop sales precipitously...

Moonie

12-14-2010, 10:54 AM

"Take for instance the 6.8 SPC which is quickly becoming a very standard military round and will likely be finding its way into the ranks of cast boolit shooters."

Now while I do not dissagree that the 6.8 SPC is a wonderful cartridge, and I have one myself, even will be casting for it, however, it is NOT a standard military round, except for some elite guards in Jordan. It is currently being very quietly tested by some of our military I understand but that is a very far cry from "very standard military round".

Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to become a "very standard military round" but currently it just isn't.

Also as far as people casting for it, it is designed for projectile weights of 115gr and less, except for the custom/semi-custom mold makers there aren't a whole lot of production molds that will fill this role. Sure heavier projectiles will work, but they take up lots of powder space due to the limited col imposed by the magazines and lead and would put the gas checks in the powder space.

Personally I don't have an issue with this but some others do, loading 130+ projectiles is ok for me and I understand that these weight projectiles puts this cartridge in the same category as the 30-30 which is just about perfect for cast.

white eagle

12-14-2010, 10:57 AM

I would have thought the 35 Whelen would have been covered as well

MT Gianni

12-14-2010, 11:03 AM

Rocky, just for cast info IMO the 307 & 356 Winchesters are covered by the 308 & 358. The pressure differences between the two should not be aproached with cast.

Moonie

12-14-2010, 11:27 AM

Oh now I'm disappointed, SWMBO has a Mauser 98 for me for Christmas that I was planning on rebarreling to 35 Whelen.

GabbyM

12-14-2010, 01:57 PM

I would have thought the 35 Whelen would have been covered as well

35 Whelen is covered.
Just list two Lyman bullets though. Actually light 35 Rem caliber bullets. The plain base 195 grain 358430 and the 204 grain gas checked round nose 358315.

geargnasher

12-15-2010, 02:14 AM

I still think the bunch of know-it-alls that we are ought to get together and publish 'The Cast Boolit Handbook', which would have each cartridge covered by an "expert" and the data presented tested in a ballistics lab. Many outstanding rough-draft articles already exist on Castpics, and there are some stickies here that could be condensed/edited into procedures.

Such a book might have a chapter on heat-treating/water quenching written and edited by a couple of folks here that I deem to be true experts. There would be a chapter on proven lube recipes, a treatise on the selection of lube recipe for a particular application, a section on hunting boolits, perhaps even some benchie articles from you-know-who and the other fella.

Might also have a section on shotmaking, casting buckshot, slugs, and making slugs shoot straight. Let's not forget case care, annealing, citric acid cleaning solution, mould and alloy temperature table, pouring technique, alloy maintenance, a few different ways to properly flux/reduce oxides, etc. You get the idea, it would be like The Cast Boolits Greatest Hits". If this were done, the book would be 800 pages and weigh nine pounds, and if Ken got 5% of teh proceeds from sales he could probably retire in comfort.

OHHH! REALITY! There you are my friend! I'm back now!

Gear

thegreatdane

12-15-2010, 02:28 AM

Oh man, now THAT I would buy! Get it done gearnasher.

Fly-guy

12-15-2010, 02:30 AM

Got mine from Grafs last week. Good articles but I was dissappointed that they omitted a lot of my favorite powders. My advise is to have a copy of the Third Edition also.

runfiverun

12-15-2010, 03:11 PM

gear
thered be about 1500 pages of lube discussions.
7-800 pages of alloy disagreements.
and at least three negative responses about water dropping. and maybe a fist fight
other than that.
a one year deadline , a cartridge designation, a mold or two purchased.
and i bet there would be some interesting load data.
especially if two guys were given the same cartridge, and worked independently.
the editing alone would be a nightmare.

b.t.w. the aa-5744 loads have been available for years in the accurate reloading manual.

.357

12-15-2010, 03:17 PM

I'd buy that book and write a chapter on the wonders that is the .357 and 38 special.

1Shirt

12-25-2010, 12:06 PM

Having gone page by page, cover to cover front to back, I like it, but agree with some of the critizisms from some others. Miss some of the old lyman molds, would like to see more molds from Saeco, RCBS, and Lee, and would like to see energy and drop tables for most popular ctgs. That said, most of this is available from Lymans Cast Manuals 1-2-3, the RBCS manual, and from threads on this forum, and that is part of the joy of being able to compair loads/blts/pdr/etc.etc.etc. If I had only one load for each ctg, based on only one cast blt, think I would find casting and reloading to be a little boreing. Shooting the one load would after awhile probably get a little boaring as well----------na, probably not! Anyhow, overall, I liked the new Lyman Manual. Thanks Mike!
1Shirt!:coffee:

Beekeeper

12-25-2010, 12:14 PM

I am disappointed with the 4th edition.
I am not a follower or fan of Mike Venturino and I feel the many pages of his life history and BPCR shooting could have been used better to supply more load data for many of the cartridges that were left out.
That said I am not ever going to give up my 3rd edition

Jim

cajun shooter

12-25-2010, 01:20 PM

Sleeper, What I was trying to relay to you went right over and past your ears. I in no way was any attack towards you. As far as I know we have never met which means I would have no reason to hold any bias towards you. I was trying to explain that you, me, and all other persons are a product of where and how they live. It in no way was making Mike "THE CAST BULLET GURU". Every person that I meet has info that I'm interested in. When you take courses in college each professor has a different delivery system and will go into his own life experience while teaching. If I have you stand in front of 50 people you will talk about what you know as that is what you are the most comfortable with. That is human nature. Mike Venturino has as I stated been around some very interesting people and will have received some good and bad information. When I was teaching firearms classes I would tell my students to pay attention to each instructor and see and retain that information which is of value to them. I then told them that they will not agree with every thing that I said and that is fine as that is how we learn. A perfect book on reloading has not been written because the publisher is the one that edits the book and makes the decision on what material stays and what material goes. Mike or some one else could have submitted material that was refused, we will never know. What we have to remember is when we watch a movie with John Wayne we are going to get Well Pilgrim and we will not see him spit a wad of tobacco before he kills a bad guy like Clint Eastwood. If you go through life with out reading certain material because of who wrote it then you are missing some valuable information. Take and use what you can and forget the rest. That is what I was trying to convey.

runfiverun

12-25-2010, 02:07 PM

john did spit a wad of tobacco before killing a rat in true grit though.
don't know if that was poking fun or if it was "props".

Thumbcocker

12-25-2010, 03:52 PM

I was disappointed. I would advise a newby to buy a Lee boolit mould for his chosen cartridge and hit the search function on this site.

WILCO

12-25-2010, 07:38 PM

I finally got to read some of my copy today. I don't know much to realize it's a disappointment.
Pretty happy thus far.

Johnch

12-25-2010, 09:03 PM

Just 2 light bullets for the 35 Wellen
Other cart's also neglected or completely overlooked

All the 223 data was with a 12" twist barrel
When most barrels are 9" or faster
Do they expect us to by custom barrels ?

IMO usfull
But a far cry from what I hoped for
Not going to return it
But not going to recomend or give it high marks

IMO we as a group could do a better job i

John

jr545

12-26-2010, 10:54 AM

Dale53

12-26-2010, 11:07 AM

I wish I had found this thread a little earlier, it wouldn't have dissuaded me but my expectations would not have been as high.
I picked up my copy Christmas eve for my wife to give me as a gift (hehe) so I really didn't look through it.
I had a chance last evening to go through it and must say that the 4th will supplement #2 & #3 not replace them, folks new to cast and casting would be wise to get a copy of #3 while they are still floating around... Wish I could find a decent copy of #1 to go with my others.

I think that is a healthy and productive way to look at this. In fact, my 3rd Edition is about worn out (covers off, etc) so, just before I ordered the 4th Edition, I ordered out a new 3rd Edition. I now have both as well as the July 1958 Edition. They have ALL been and will continue to be useful. I keep them by my computer for authoritative reference when on the forums.

I was a bit disappointed in the 4th Edition, but NOT what it contained. My disappointment regarding the 4th Edition is confined to the information (loading data) that is NOT in there. There are a number of cartridges that should have been in there that are not. I believe Mike Venturino has done an excellent job describing the various procedures in bullet casting and loading. Newcomers, especially, will benefit from this.

NOTE: Order out your 3rd Edition while it is still available. I don't believe that they will last long.

Dale53

jr545

12-26-2010, 11:13 AM

Thanks for the reminder Dale.....My 3rd Ed is pretty worn.
I'll pick up another and put in back so I have a minty copy in the furure.

btroj

12-26-2010, 12:33 PM

I agree with Dale. I view mine as a way to get data for newer powders or bullets, or whatever that I did not have before. It is a supplement to, not a replacement for, previous editions. This is why it pays to keep the old books.
Does it have all I might like? No. But if I got what I wanted someone else would complain that it did not have what they wanted. Lyman can't be everything to everyone, at least not if they want to be profitable.
I would love to see data for 32-20 at a higher pressure level for new rifles but can understand why it is not included.

TCLouis

12-26-2010, 03:30 PM

Now I know to save my money for powder and primers, read my #3, RCBS, OLD NRA Cast Boolit book (back when they supported things other than just Bullseye High Power, Politics).

Luckily, we have this site and the net with varied authors and "opinions".

Yes, the net has typos and misspelling and errors, but I have come to prefer it for the WIDELY varied approaches to an issue.

To bad Lyman produced . . . a wannabe that appears to fall short.

Maybe we should realize that we have come a long way in our abilities so there is less new knowledge available, whereas to the new cast boolit shooter the info will be useful and helpful.

OldSchool

12-26-2010, 08:45 PM

Finally broke open the wrapper on our copy today. I was sold when I saw that it included both 32-40 and 32 Win Spl! (I had yet to see them both in a single reloading manual.)

However, I'll be darned if I can find a reference to a Garand loading; just generic 30-06, it seems.

Looks like a good supplement to our Lyman and Hornady manuals, as I would expect. As a rank beginner, I expect to learn good things in that large educational section.

Duckiller

12-27-2010, 05:53 PM

Suggest everyone find an older Lyman Manual that lists ALL of the moulds they have made. 4th Edition only lists current moulds. Wander into a gun show or gun shop and find a used mould you may want and you have no way of knowing what weight of boolit it drops. Don't care that weight is not exact, just want a good approximation. Maybe Lyman doesn't want us to buy used moulds. Only one boolit for 32 Special (by RCBS) and nothing for 348 Win. Definitely don't want us to buy used moulds.

MakeMineA10mm

12-27-2010, 10:25 PM

Well, finally picked mine up today and got a chance to briefly peruse it. Agree with most the others' comments here, but I've got to say, I've never found any loading manual I'm completely satisfied with.

Regarding the articles in the front -
* I like Mike Venturino, but by having him write nearly the whole front half of the book, it looses a lot. They couldn't get Harris to re-write his cast boolit article? How about an article or two by Glen Fryxell?? Another thing is that if you're a fairly consistent reader of Handloader or Rifle magazines, it all sounds like you're heard it before... Nothing against Mike or the contents of what he wrote; I love his writing, and was a fan when I read his first piece about Sharps Rifles in the Amer. Rifleman back in the late-70s/early-80s, but to have one guy write the whole front half (mostly) was a big mistake, IMO.

* Second, there needs to be certain articles in the front of a cast boolit manual. There's the obligatory safety article, and the tips and overcoming obstacles, and the chemistry of lead alloys. (This one looks revised to make it more readable for layman, so I'm very excited about reading that one when I have some alone time so I can concentrate.) However, there are also articles that could have been condensed, combined, or eliminated, and the pages turned over to more data.

* Third, and most frustrating to me, is that there was a lot of good data with newer powders, and more moulds than just Lyman's; however, as Lyman has done in the past, they'd use a powder for loads in five of the six boolits for a certain cartridge, and then leave that powder out for that last boolit! ***?!? The load data was skimpy in some areas but thorough in others. I wonder how much time they spend running the tests to come up with these loads, but I would think that after 30 years of a-waiting, the data section could have been thicker and more thorough.

Not sure if it's the paper or cover material, or what, but this 4th Ed. feels thinner than the 3rd. A telling sign, I'm afraid...

OH, and BTW, I'm in for writing the 10mm section of the CB loading guide 1st Ed.!! :)