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View Full Version : What's wrong with these boolits?



Jech
11-25-2010, 03:37 AM
Boolit #1 (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy207/raexis/1-1.jpg), Boolit #2 (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy207/raexis/2-1.jpg), Boolit #3 (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy207/raexis/3-1.jpg), Boolit #4 (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy207/raexis/4-1.jpg)

I've linked very closeup shots of 4 boolits I cast yesterday, these were dropped from a Lee 6-cavity 452-200-FP. The straight wheelweight alloy was aircooled after being poured from a Lee 20lb bottom pour pot. I had the thermostat cranked up to 7.5-9 depending on how full the pot was, outside my little casting shed it was 8F degrees :holysheep inside the ambient temperature was probably in the low 50's.

Out of the ~600 boolits I poured, somewhere between 1/4th and 1/3rd of them have these markings. Otherwise they are very well filled out with what I would call excellent definition...all edges/angles are sharp, bases are nice and flat with non-smeared sprue cuts. None of them are frosted or wrinkled, just a tad hotter than a low-temp glossy finish but shy of the matte look turning "galvanized". The opposing side of the pictured boolits is absolutely textbook. They weigh in at 207.5-209.4gr and mic out to .4523-.4528". :bigsmyl2:

Other than these cosmetic issues, they're shootable and I won't hesitate to put them downrange but it still gets under my skin. My theory is that I'm seeing bits of flash-oxidation from the bottom-pour stream that swirled around inside before solidifying and ended up against the cavity wall but I'm not sure.

It's really bad when you combine an overly OCD person with boolit casting! :lovebooli

missionary5155
11-25-2010, 03:54 AM
Good morning
Are you ....
#1 Using well cleaned ingots in a clean pot ?
#2 Using saw dust , chips, litter.... on the top of the mix to keep down oxidation
#3 Sorry but my 60' year old eyes are having trouble seeing what I am supposed to be looking for.
I would weigh a few... If they are all near the 99% average then I would not have too many worries.

nicholst55
11-25-2010, 05:59 AM
You've got stuff in your alloy, looks like to me; dirt, dross, crud, whatever you want to call it. Flux your pot really good, to include scraping the sides, and see if it goes away.

44MAG#1
11-25-2010, 06:41 AM
There is nothing wrong with those bullets. You are being too pickey. Lower your pot temp till it just stays hot enough so the spout won't freeze and cast kinda quick or just fast enough to keep the mold hot enough to cast filled out bullets.
Return the sprues before you have a pile so when they are added the temp drop doesn't cause nozzle freeze.
Experiment. That is what it is all about.
If you want some shiney bullets to show your friends select a few to carry around and to keep loaded for visual impact. The rest don't worry about.
Oh, ladle casting generally produces better looking finish or at least I have found that to be true.

Charlie Two Tracks
11-25-2010, 08:34 AM
Now, this is from a new caster. I've only been doing this for a few months. For me, I needed to get a thermometer to find out what my pot temp. was. I was running my lead way too hot and the boolits were quite frosted. I then started playing with the temp. of the lead and the temperature of the mould. I've found that I have the best results with the lead at 650 deg. and the mould, hot enough to be on the edge of frosting. I can cool the mould down by placing it on a wet rag. The guys on this site, told me all of that. It worked. I had to slow down and try different things that I read. For me, it is practice. I am amazed how a little difference in temperature or speed of casting, can make such a difference in my boolits. There is nothing wrong with frosted boolits unless they are extremely frosted. Your pictures show that you are well on your way to getting what you want. Enjoy! This is a fun hobby.

Fixxah
11-25-2010, 08:46 AM
I get the same thing. It is from hot boolits dropping on a rag/towel etc. and nearly sticking to material. I drop on a cut up sweat shirt. They will shoot fine.

44man
11-25-2010, 08:58 AM
I get the same thing. It is from hot boolits dropping on a rag/towel etc. and nearly sticking to material. I drop on a cut up sweat shirt. They will shoot fine.
That would do it!
There might be a tad of zinc in the lead too. I had some pure that got some zinc in it and boolits looked like rain gutters---at least they would not rust! :bigsmyl2:
At 8*, they should be flash frozen too :kidding:Must be hard to water drop.

frkelly74
11-25-2010, 08:59 AM
Those look like they should be shot!

Bret4207
11-25-2010, 09:18 AM
Other than a couple of tiny dross inclusions those are fine looking boolits. If the finish really bothers you, load them and give the exposed section a swipe with some 4/0 steel wool. They'll be uniformly shiny.

old turtle
11-25-2010, 09:52 AM
I tend to agree with nicholst and 44. Perhaps one ingot or a wheel weight had some zinc. Try some fresh lead and see what happens. A thermometer is a good thing to have. Zinc is almost impossible to get out. You may have a very small amount that could be alloyed down by adding good lead but it is a **** shoot. I clean my pot before every use.

gray wolf
11-25-2010, 10:04 AM
Metal/mold to hot, looks like antimony crystals to me. Slow down or cool down.
I have this sometimes if I use to hot of a metal or mold and go directly into the center of the sprue hole.

44man
11-25-2010, 10:08 AM
I tend to agree with nicholst and 44. Perhaps one ingot or a wheel weight had some zinc. Try some fresh lead and see what happens. A thermometer is a good thing to have. Zinc is almost impossible to get out. You may have a very small amount that could be alloyed down by adding good lead but it is a **** shoot. I clean my pot before every use.
You can get most zinc out by melting at 600* and skimming the oatmeal off the surface. Do not flux first.
Small amounts do not hurt the boolits but too much will ruin fill out.
I could care less what a boolit looks like as long as they are filled out and I think Jech's are just fine to shoot if slag inclusions and pot holes are kept out.

Bass Ackward
11-25-2010, 10:31 AM
What is wrong with those bullets?

They are naked. Lube hides a lot of sins.

Sizing can hide a defect.

Loading in cases hides even more.

And then impact will camouflage the part you can still see.

Charlie Two Tracks
11-25-2010, 10:49 AM
I like that Bass Ackward! Good thing to remember.

Wayne Smith
11-25-2010, 11:12 AM
Now, this is from a new caster. I've only been doing this for a few months. For me, I needed to get a thermometer to find out what my pot temp. was. I was running my lead way too hot and the boolits were quite frosted. I then started playing with the temp. of the lead and the temperature of the mould. I've found that I have the best results with the lead at 650 deg. and the mould, hot enough to be on the edge of frosting. I can cool the mould down by placing it on a wet rag. The guys on this site, told me all of that. It worked. I had to slow down and try different things that I read. For me, it is practice. I am amazed how a little difference in temperature or speed of casting, can make such a difference in my boolits. There is nothing wrong with frosted boolits unless they are extremely frosted. Your pictures show that you are well on your way to getting what you want. Enjoy! This is a fun hobby.

Charlie, as you get more experience with multiple molds and especially with different mold materials you will find that each mold has it's favorite mold temp and it's favorite alloy temp. Some like it hot, some, like your mold, like it a little cool. Some even like it in between.

btroj
11-25-2010, 11:22 AM
I would just shoot them. I have been casting for over 20 years and still get some that look like that from time to time. And with the range you are likely to shoot them it won't make any difference.

Brad

lwknight
11-25-2010, 12:06 PM
You might be dropping the stream too far. Its best to set the rest so that you have a very short distance from the spout to the mold. I think you are just picking up some oxygen during the free fall into the mold.
Still it don't hurt a thing. Just for kicks and giggles , you could presure cast a few and see if that effect goes away. If it does then you will know that it is oxidation.

mdi
11-25-2010, 01:10 PM
I did some casting with Lyman steel mold last night. My boolits were looking a lot like your pics, not bad and they'll shoot just fine, but I wanted "cleaner" lookin lead. I kept lowering the temp (I had been previously casting with a Lee mold that likes hot melt) until all my boolits came out slightly frosted (a dull satin) and filled out. So, I'd say try a lower temp and maybe cast slower...

lylejb
11-25-2010, 02:39 PM
Nicholst hit the nail on the head!

Those are inclusions, tiny pieces of dross / slag / dirt / junk that were in the melt when you poured it.

Had that same problem once. For me the solution was to empty and clean my pot, and make sure my ingots were well cleaned at smelting.

When I was starting out, my first batch of ingots were not clean enough, this allowed these bits of crud to get into my pot, and seemed to accumulate.

The more boolits I cast, the worse it got, as I was putting more and more dirty ingots in my pot.

I resmelted the suspect batch of ingots, and gave the pot a good cleaning, Problem solved.

Mal Paso
11-25-2010, 05:24 PM
Inspect the Boolits for Religious Images that could bring big bucks on Ebay and shoot the rest.:lol:

Jech
11-25-2010, 07:26 PM
Loving these replies! Some great info here I need to spend some time digging through. Off to stuff myself silly with turkey for now!

tommygirlMT
11-25-2010, 08:43 PM
<snip> At 8*, they should be flash frozen too :kidding:Must be hard to water drop.

eight degree F is nothing --- try casting at less then ten below --- yes you can water drop but you have to keep your pace up so that enough boolits get dropped into water and give their heat to the water to keep it from freezing --- make very very hard boolits --- kind of like chrio hardening for lead

leadman
11-25-2010, 08:57 PM
Also pick a temperature that gives you the results you want and keep it there. The thermostat even on a Lee pot will keep the temp. close enough.
Temperature variation can cause weight variation in the boolits.

old turtle
11-25-2010, 09:19 PM
Use my favorite saying, "I have shot worse."

runfiverun
11-25-2010, 10:13 PM
those just look like they are on the verge of turning flat grey [the consistent color i look for]
a bit more heat in the mold and they would have gone over.
you might have a bit of oxidaton or flash cooling but i wouldn't hesitate to shoot them.
you could also add a bit of tin to help in cold temps like that.
i just build a fire in the stove and try to keep the ambient room temp the same, year round, while casting.
and use a cooler in the summer, minding the humidity also.

Fixxah
11-25-2010, 10:42 PM
It is temperature related. I have had the same results on different alloys that are dropped onto sweatshirts and not so much when using a folded up bath towel.

My pro-melt is set at a temp that is just hot enough flow from the spout. Very doubtful there is zinc in the melt

The results are repeatable and I will prove it next session.

geargnasher
11-25-2010, 11:10 PM
HINT: Drop boolits on 100% cotton Terrycloth if air-cooling to prevent the sticking. Fabric softener helps.

I've had a few sessons with boolits coming out looking like they had just been electro-galvanized, and I believe it's for the same reason: Traces of zink.

Gear

Muddy Creek Sam
11-25-2010, 11:28 PM
Only problem I see is they aren't ready to shoot.

Sam :D

sharpshooter3040
11-26-2010, 12:34 AM
Casting with pure wheel weights because of the small or inadiquate amount of tin, will give this appearance often, it is a temperature thing that causes the alloy to seperate slightly and the antimony crystals to surface as the alloy cools in the mould. These boolits are just fine and will perform just as well as the others. I would suggest fluxing often when using pure wheel weight alloy, keep the Temp at the just past molten state as someone else correcty suggested. Adding a little Tin will help a bunch too( a roll of 100 % tin solder) 2- 18" strips / 10lb of alloy will work wonders. After the temp and the fluxing are right I use cat litter on top of the melt to keep down dross and oxidation. You can ask 10 guys what to do and get 10 good but all different answers. All good advice, Experimentation, find your nitch. Your Boolits look good

Good luck

Doug

Ole
11-26-2010, 01:38 AM
I would shoot those bullets without hesitation.

They look fine to me.

Jech
11-26-2010, 07:44 PM
You've got stuff in your alloy, looks like to me; dirt, dross, crud, whatever you want to call it. Flux your pot really good, to include scraping the sides, and see if it goes away.
My normal casting pot fluxing technique is to bring the melted ingots up to temp then "season" the surface with a consistent 1/4" of fine/dry sawdust. The sawdust is lit to cut back on smoke, after it's stopped smoldering, I drop in a pinch of paraffin wax which usually flash-combusts. The sawdust-turned-carbon and burning wax get "folded down" and stirred into the melt. After it sits for about 90 seconds, I skim the dross off the top. When I'm done, another 1/4" of sawdust is added and lit to protect the surface from oxidation as I pour.

I repeat this process whenever I add additional alloy to the melt. Do I need to change up my routine for fluxing?


Metal/mold to hot, looks like antimony crystals to me. Slow down or cool down.
I have this sometimes if I use to hot of a metal or mold and go directly into the center of the sprue hole.
Asking this question out of a lack of experience but what's wrong with pouring directly into the sprue hole? I thought doing so would make sure the molten alloy would swirl around creating better fillout.


What is wrong with those bullets?

They are naked. Lube hides a lot of sins.

Sizing can hide a defect.

Loading in cases hides even more.

And then impact will camouflage the part you can still see.
Wise words if I ever heard them, can I get this printed into one of those Serenity-Prayer style plaques to hang above my casting pot? =D


You might be dropping the stream too far. Its best to set the rest so that you have a very short distance from the spout to the mold. I think you are just picking up some oxygen during the free fall into the mold.
Still it don't hurt a thing. Just for kicks and giggles , you could presure cast a few and see if that effect goes away. If it does then you will know that it is oxidation.
This was my best guess since I was running everything so hot but wasn't getting full-blown frosting. I've tried holding the bottom-pour spout down inside the sprue plate cone right over the hole to minimize the distance the stream has to travel but I get a lot of alloy running out and off of the sprue plate, very messy.

I'm not familiar with pressure casting though, what does that involve?


Inspect the Boolits for Religious Images that could bring big bucks on Ebay and shoot the rest.:lol:
No luck this batch, guess I better go cast some more and hope for something special :P

P.S. I've lubed and sized them up, I'm sure the paper won't know the difference :)

Charlie Two Tracks
11-26-2010, 10:47 PM
Pressure casting: Holding the mould right up against the spout, tight. I count to two or three and move to the next hole. Once the last cavity is full, I lower the mould down so I can get some lead on the sprue plate. This will make it easier to knock off the sprue. Be sure to hold the mould level. Some lead can squirt out the sides if you don't. At least that's the way I do it.

buck1
11-26-2010, 11:43 PM
If you make them too perfect you will have nothing to blame your flyers on! LOL

lwknight
11-27-2010, 03:28 AM
Sharpshooter made a good point too.

Casting with pure wheel weights because of the small or inadiquate amount of tin,
Antimony is a funny thing. It melts at over 1100 degrees but can be disolved like salt in water when some tin exists in the lead. Without enough tin , the antimony will not be fully melted even though the batch seems liquid. The suspended particles migrate or gravitate together and try to crystalize. A little tin will disolve them back into alloy instead of being just a mixture of pure antimony in pure lead.

Down South
11-27-2010, 10:35 AM
It looks like a slight trace of Zinc making the markings. It looks like the Zinc is causing the minor inclusions too. You might try casting just a little hotter and see if it helps out.

Papa Jack
11-27-2010, 03:14 PM
Just shine up the noses really good, thats the only part that shows when they are loaded.....
I do dump my boolits out of the mould onto a folded up bath towel, I flux the pot probably less often then I should and I use a stainless table spoon to stir and flux.
good looking boolits......PJ

Jech
11-27-2010, 08:52 PM
Got 'em all lubed and sized up, if the freezing rain holds off for another day :groner: I should have a range report tomorrow evening.

Papa Jack
11-28-2010, 12:18 AM
Got 'em all lubed and sized up, if the freezing rain holds off for another day :groner: I should have a range report tomorrow evening.

Hope ya have a better day !! About 5 minutes of freezing rain is plenty ! It's warming up here out west, it's 36*f right now ( 8:17pm ).

I loaded a hanfull of .444 Marlins today to test....Maybe this week..... PJ

bigjake
11-28-2010, 11:40 AM
I posted something like this in the past about some swirrly looking melt. Could it be calcium?
the inclusions do look like dirt though.

canyon-ghost
11-28-2010, 12:19 PM
Those are inclusions, tiny pieces of dross / slag / dirt / junk that were in the melt when you poured it.



I noticed the last three had the same pattern, got some of your flux into the mold. Might wait longer than 90 seconds for the dross to rise. The inclusions and pattern all match on the last three so, I'd say there's something there. When you keep pouring, you burn it out anyway.

NoDakJak
11-29-2010, 05:23 PM
Flux, flux, flux! I had the same problem until I switched to sawdust. Neil