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ItZaLLgooD
11-21-2010, 05:30 PM
I started casting about 1 year ago because of the price/availability of factory ammunition. I was happy if they were loadable boolits that didn't lead up the gun. Now I that I am past that, I'm noticing I don't get the same accuracy as with my cast projectiles.

Load #1: 5.2 grains Unique / Lee TL-452-230_2R lubed with 45-45-10.
Load #2: 7.0 grains Power Pistol / 230gr XTP

At 15 yards off-hand - shooting at a 3 in circle, only 1 round in the circle with load #1. The rest MIGHT have fit in a 10 inch circle, all but 1 low enough to miss the target circle.

Same set -up for load #2. 5 rounds in the circle, the other 3 missed by less than an inch.

I am no marksman but, 2 other people with the same distance/target/gun with similar results.

Where do I start??

Char-Gar
11-21-2010, 06:34 PM
You can start by telling us what firearms you are using..rifle, pistol or what? I suspect it is a 45 auto from the bullets, but that is just guess work.

Bass Ackward
11-21-2010, 07:34 PM
Very first thing to do is learn to compare apples to apples.

You have two equal weight bullets. First use the Unique load with the XTP and see what you get. Then run the cast up to the 7.0 grains of PP and see what happens. This is going to give you invaluable direction to go.

Maybe you just aren't stabilizing at the lower velocity. Until you know .........................

jblee10
11-21-2010, 07:43 PM
Why not try the same powder charge behind each bullet? If it's a 45 acp, use an alloy at least as hard as water dropped wheel weights. That works fine in my XD. If you need to raise the point of impact with the cast bullets, slow them down a little.

runfiverun
11-21-2010, 09:14 PM
up the unique load some, i am surprised it actually functions the firearm.
i use 7 grs in the acp.
and some guns plain refuse to shoot the t/l design, the 9mm version is the worst offender ever.
just work the load upwards.

noylj
11-21-2010, 09:46 PM
You have to work up loads for both bullets using the same powders. All that you have shown is that the gun preferred an XTP/Power Pistol/specific charge weight better than a cast bullet/Unique/specific charge weight. One assumes they were at least fired in the same gun?
Some other areas to look at?
Are you sizing your cast bullets? That can hurt accuracy. Try as-cast.
Have you slugged your barrel, so you know what minimum bullet diameter you need?
Did you thoroughly clean the barrel between cast bullets and jacketed bullets?

ItZaLLgooD
11-21-2010, 10:14 PM
Sorry about that. 45ACP in a Kimber 1911 and Taurus 1911. Both are 5"ers. Both shoot a similar pattern.

Boolits are air cooled wheel weights. Tumbled with LLA/JPW.


i use 7 grs in the acp.

The Alliant website says that with a 230 gr LRN that 5.8 gr Unique is max but I just looked at my Lyman manual and it says 7.3 gr. Why the big difference? Who should I trust when i get conflicting data?

I got the Power Pistol to run the J-words at higher velocity and didn't think much about accuracy so I never tried it with the lead. I will try it out.

I will also bump up the charge of Unique to see what I get. I would have never guessed that powder would make that big of difference in the group.

I also have some Titegroup to try. The name of it implies that my groups should shrink.:)

prs
11-21-2010, 10:21 PM
I know little of 45ACP lore, but one thing you can do when working-up a load or judging accuracy is to use a proper pistol rest and/or bags. Reduce the human factoras much as possible.

prs

ItZaLLgooD
11-21-2010, 10:22 PM
One assumes they were at least fired in the same gun?

Yes


Are you sizing your cast bullets?

Yes, .452 with the Lee push through sizer. As cast I had some trouble with reliable chambering.


Have you slugged your barrel,

No


Did you thoroughly clean the barrel between cast bullets and jacketed bullets?

No. I went back and forth, a magazine full at a time. My brother got similar result with his Kimber and eyes.

gray wolf
11-21-2010, 10:48 PM
good advise so far,
Well the op has us playing a little guessing game but it ain't that hard to figure out.
I say it's a 45 acp also-------------NOW-----------let me say, one more time-:killingpc.

I just don't understand how some of you guy's test loads for your pistols.
I don't have my nomax suite on so easy on the flames, this is not for the pros.
But I think it can help some others trying to get good accuracy and come up with a good load.
Yes slug your barrel and or throats and get the correct size bullet, choose a good lube. Do a little research and find a powder that has a good track record for your cartridge. Lets say it's tite group,
and the Minimum and max are 4.8 to 5.4 for 200 Gr. LSWC.
Load 10 rounds each of 4.7-- 4.8--4.9--5.00--5.1 yes I said that right,
start a 1/10 under Min. and stop for now a little under max.
Use your barrel as a case Gage for a seating dept to get your OAL.
The correct OAL should let the bullet fall into your barrel and be even or just a hair below the barrel hood. Your bullet is head spacing on the bullet because if you do it right the bullet is contacting the rifing lead. This will give proper and consistent primer strike as the bullet will be in good contact with the breach face.
Do not over crimp the 45 round, just enough to remove the neck flare.
You wont gain anything by over crimping here.
So now we take all our little sample rounds and keep them separated.
At the range use your sand bag, the one you made out of some old pant legs and tied off with some string. Put a 2'' target out at least 10 yards and shoot the lowest charge first while using the sand bag as a rest, get that pistol firmly into the bag. Shoot all ten rounds--this will allow for any bad shots on your part and still give you enough to see a group. Mark the target so when you get home you can study it. Do the same with the rest of the targets. I can do this testing with
at least 6 targets on one 8X11 sheet of paper. You will also after a while.
Shoot each shot like it was the only one you had, GOOD site picture and GOOD trigger control is very important here. At this stage of the testing forget about shooting off hand. Many new shooters are not good at it anyway. It takes practice. ( please-- I hope no one is getting insulted here with the basics )
If you don't screw up the shooting you should have some targets with one hole
raged groups, and your testing should have told you the powder charge your pistol likes.
Let me say some times a pistol with fixed sights will be a little off POA shooting from a sand bag. Don't let it bother you at this time. What you did is just proved your best load. You can always return to the bag at any time you think your shooting is a little off. the sand bag will reconfirm if it is you or the pistol.
So now you stand up and shoot free hand at 10 yards and shoot 4 or 5 inch groups with the load that shot 1'' off the bag. WHO YOU GOING TO BLAME EH.
Once you have your load you can work on your shooting.
This may be to basic for some but for a person trying to work up a load and develop his/her shooting I think IMHO it is a good way to remove any variables
and get a good idea of whats going on.
Copper, lead--copper lead--copper lead UM not good little Cricket clean befor each.
Hope it didn't bore anyone. ;-)


Sam

35remington
11-21-2010, 10:51 PM
Let me caution you about a few things.

First, don't use the Lyman data for 7.3 grains of Unique. This would be past Plus P pressures with this bullet, and I cast the very same one. Lyman's data is dated and will give far higher velocity than they state with the Lee bullet substituted. For that matter it is not advisable with the bullet they list it with.....the 452374. I know that data you're quoting by memory as it's been in the 45th, 46th, 47th, 48th and 49th editions.

Lyman has been remiss in not correcting it. It's sadly and near dangerously dated by now.

Six grains Unique will attain near standard ball velocity with the 230-2R with my own chronographed results, and 6.5 grains should be considered the maximum for standard pressures. I would not exceed the 6.5 grain charge; modern data reflects this.

Forget 7.3 grains! Period! For that matter, don't use anything above the 6.5 grains I just mentioned. Such a charge obtains well over 920 fps with the 230-2R in a five inch 1911, and that's well past standard velocity and more near Plus P. 7.3 grains would be quite excessive and well past Plus P.

In advising tenth grain increments for working up pistol charges, it is well to remember you're measuring with a micrometer and cutting with an axe, the axe being our 1911 pistol and the humble tester's abilities. It is likely that given the normal variation in metered charges and how an automatic pistol functions with a barrel/slide/frame that is potentially locking up slightly differently for every shot, a pistol round such as the 45 ACP is not "tenth grain sensitive" but rather "charge range sensitive." This applies to weighed charges as well.

Nor is your standard bushing/slide/barrel fit sensitive in that tenth grain manner, save in finding the range of charges where lockup of the barrel/slide/frame will occur repeatably every time and help accuracy. An automatic pistol is a strange thing, accuracywise, as the most accurate loads somehow make the gun return to battery the same way every time.

Certainly there is a range of powder charges where the pistol may shoot better, but I could deliberately vary those charges a tenth grain either way and no grouping difference will show up on target given standard pistols and abilities. Or even a Ransom rest. Positing that 5.5 grains Unique will give one hole groups while 5.4 or 5.6 grains will group much worse will not bear out in actual testing.

ItZaLLgooD
11-22-2010, 07:24 AM
Thanks for all of the advise. I am not looking for ragged hole accuracy. I plan on using these boolits for some local USPSA matches and general plinking for my son and me.

I have a modest reloading set-up that doesn't allow for .1 grain adjustments.(Lee Autodisk powder measure). No disrespect to Gray wolf, I understand my testing was limited but I usually don't have that kind of time. Someday, but not anytime soon. I will start simple and see what happens. Thanks

gray wolf
11-22-2010, 11:21 AM
No problem here,
enjoy what you do and be safe. We have to do with what we have.

243winxb
11-22-2010, 11:27 AM
Increase you powder charge from 5.2 grains Unique a little at a time till you get accuracy.

cajun shooter
11-22-2010, 12:12 PM
I think I would change to a different lube such as White Label BAC and see what happens. Then try Carnuba Red if the BAC does not give good enough results.

prs
11-22-2010, 12:50 PM
gray wolf; a most excellent reply! We all need reminders.

ItZaLLgooD; I use that same model powder measure for high volume production runs in progressive presses. When working-up small lots of test ammo, I use the Lee Dippers, a card, and a powder trickler, along with a powder scale. Once I settle on the weight of my "sweet" charge, I go back to the Pro Auto Disk and select the volumetric cavity that delivers that charge in actual production with half to 3/4 hopper full of the selected propellant. You have to check the charges during typical cycles of the reloading press to get representative results of production rounds. If the sweet charge falls in between volumetric sizes you have two choices with the Pro Auto measure IF you really do want to pin-point that charge. You can take a cavity that is slightly low RE the delivered charge and polish it up in size just a tad, or you can use the Lee micrometer accessory for that scale.

Unique is not a meter "friendly" powder, but I still get very consistent charges with it. Like 35Remmington pointed-out, you do not necessarily have to pin-point the perfect charge. In your testing, you will hopefully find that the groups typically remain reasonably tight within a range of those you tested. If you do not have a scale, you have a good thing for Santa to bring ya. I have several and although some will poo-poo the thought of it, the inexpensive Lee scale is as good as any for typical powder charges if properly placed and calibrated to "0" or even by try weight. If you have no trickler and don't want one, use an index card bent into a "V" and your finger to tap the powder over the end edge a flake or two at a time.

prs

dverna
11-22-2010, 12:57 PM
Show us a picture of your bullets before lubing. Don't pick the pretty ones. Grab 4 or 5 at random.

Weigh 20 of them and find the Extreme Spread and SD (Standard Deviation): Here is data from two decent commercial cast bullets and a "cheap" Jacketed bullet

Dardas MasterCast Zero
,45 200 gr SWC .45 -200 gr 230 gr FMC
Avg 198.8 200.1 229.5
Min 198.0 199.3 229.1
Max 199.7 201.0 229.7
Spread 1.7 1.7 0.6
S.D. 0.49 0.53 0.15

If your bullets vary wildly, they will not shoot very well. The groups (patterns?) you are getting are not due to the load unless you are seeing key-holing. At 15 yards, any load that is fast enough to stabilize the bullet will shoot into a 3" circle. The bullets are likely your problem.

After posting I see the formatting of the data did not "take". What is shows is that "good" commercial cast bullets vary by less than 2 grains. Look for an extreme spread no worse than 3 gr. on your 20 bullets. FORGET about 1/10th grain powder increments. It is a freaking pistol load!!!!

Don Verna

mdi
11-22-2010, 01:11 PM
I know little of 45ACP lore, but one thing you can do when working-up a load or judging accuracy is to use a proper pistol rest and/or bags. Reduce the human factoras much as possible.

prs

Agreed. You need to know how the gun shoots and not how good a shot you are.:mrgreen: Bags, or a rest...

GRUMPA
11-22-2010, 01:16 PM
I used to have the same issue at first with my "x" brand type 1911's and I always like as stated already worked up my loads. Accuracy so-so but in my own personal case I am the only guy I know that can sit on a piece of coal and a week later produce a diamond. I was using brass of so many makes it isn't funny. Some brass is thicker than others and with the slightly oversized cast as with jacketed stuff .001 difference of the case mouth itself is all thats needed to mess things up. I figured that out later than sooner but it sure helped me out.

ItZaLLgooD
11-22-2010, 08:08 PM
I am using mixed head stamp brass. Is it possible to break all of the rules at once?:mrgreen:

Char-Gar
11-22-2010, 08:27 PM
Folks have been loading for the 1911 pistol for almost a hundred years and there are no secrets to loading good ammo with cast bullets. I have loaded at least 250,000 rounds of 45 ACP ammo over the past 50 years.

I don't use Lee molds or tumble lube bullets so I can't speak to any problems you have there.

With a good bullet design like H&G 68 or Lyman 452460, cast our of WW or harder alloy, sized .452 with a good soft lube, you are good to go with bullets.

Use your barrel as a bullet seating gage and seat the bullet in the cass until the case head is flush with the barrel hood.

Use either Bullseye or 231 powder with a charge of 4.5 grains. You can massage that up or down a couple of 1/10ths of a grain.

Use a properly adjusted taper crimp die and taper crimp the round.

With the above load, you will have all of the accuracy your pistols have to give. That is all their is to it.

Change any of the above and you are on your own.

randyrat
11-22-2010, 08:40 PM
Bingo....Brass does make a difference. Providing your doing everything else right. I'm still trying to figure which brass is best for my 1911
I need a thin wall brass and haven't yet figured out which ones to use.

Bret4207
11-23-2010, 07:46 AM
I am using mixed head stamp brass. Is it possible to break all of the rules at once?:mrgreen:

Oh boy, and it's never been trimmed either I bet. Naw, that wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with this problem. HAR!:wink:

Best to pick out 50 or so of the same headstamp, trim, do whatever else you can to assure uniform brass and start there. Do the simple, basic stuff first. And for goodness sake, use a rest and some sand bags and strive to make each shot perfect.

45 2.1
11-23-2010, 08:30 AM
Oh boy, and it's never been trimmed either I bet. Naw, that wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with this problem. HAR!:wink:

Best to pick out 50 or so of the same headstamp, trim, do whatever else you can to assure uniform brass and start there. Do the simple, basic stuff first. And for goodness sake, use a rest and some sand bags and strive to make each shot perfect.

Trim to what........... most of the 45 ACP cases i've measured have been too short. Seat the boolit to headspace on the rifling origin in the proper place.

x101airborne
11-23-2010, 08:35 AM
I am another person with turning coal into diamonds. I shoot. I shoot a lot. But..... before happiness can be achieved, there has to be a certain level of acceptance. I use 45 range brass, untrimmed, sometimes uncleaned. i use lee boolits, i use whatever primers i have, and i use linotype metal with whatever thrown in and water quenched. if your boolits fit, they are reasonably accurate. if you are really economizing, accept a 3 or 4 inch group at around 25 yards or whatever you shoot. You cannot have that many variables and get really good accuracy. just with the boolit there are around 15 variables to try. If youre goin cheap, accept a load that functions reliably and shoots reasonably. if you want accuracy, spend some money and it will show in your groups. i have found bullseye in a near max charge to be around the best for the acp IME.

XWrench3
11-23-2010, 08:45 AM
A+ post gray wolf! that is a great explanation of how to work up a load.

[QUOTE][I am not looking for ragged hole accuracy. /QUOTE]

BUT, YOU SHOULD BE! it is the only way you will ever increase YOUR skills as a shooter! if the round is not accurate, how will YOU ever know if the round is inacurate, or if it is you?

slugging your bore IS THE ONLY way to know if the boolit fits your gun or not. if the boolit is to small, you will simply be chasing your tail until you fix that! if the bullets do not fit correctly, your accuracy will suffer, and so will your shooting. i went through a bunch to get my boolits to fit my gun (lapping the mold i can not tell you how many times).

as a shooter/reloader/caster, you develop through stages. first, it is just fun to shoot, then, you start working on accuracy. then you realize how expensive this is, so you start reloading. then, you worry about working up loads that are safe, then accurate. and when you start casting, you start all over agin. eventually, you will end up where everything boils down to accuracy. which if we went to a school, we would be taught first. unfortunatly, most of us develop bad habbits during the learning process that we will have to break in order to get to being a good accurate shooter.

once you get your ammo straigtened around, get some books or video's to help you with the accuracy development. going to a shooting school would be the best thing, but few of us can really afford that.

oh, and yes, a little bit of powder can mean a great deal to accuracy. an example would be my 300 win mag. 70.0 grains of imr4831 = 3.25" groups @ 100 yards. 71.0 grains, = 1.5" groups. 72.0 grains, = .75" group. and 73.0 = 1.6" groups. you WILL HAVE TO experiment to find what your gun likes.

WILCO
11-23-2010, 09:15 AM
Some good answers being given. My best advice is to read through them, go back to square one. Powder trickler, LEE Safety Scale and LEE Dippers are great things to have on the reloading bench for any "Boolit" project.

Echo
11-23-2010, 11:36 AM
Bingo....Brass does make a difference. Providing your doing everything else right. I'm still trying to figure which brass is best for my 1911
I need a thin wall brass and haven't yet figured out which ones to use.

RR, in my experience, Remington .45 is the thinnest - I can't use it, as with my equipment, there's not enough tension to hold the bullet. I use W-W nickle brass because I have a bunch of it, and it has plenty of tension.

Echo
11-23-2010, 11:43 AM
Trim to what........... most of the 45 ACP cases i've measured have been too short. Seat the boolit to headspace on the rifling origin in the proper place.

I doubt if there has ever been a .45ACP case made that was as long as the chamber. But different case-lengths can be sorta engaged with a taper-crimp die, gently applied. A roll crimp will NOT be uniform enough for best accuracy, unless all cases have been trimmed.

And +1 on seating to engage the origin.

Recluse
11-23-2010, 12:13 PM
I think I would change to a different lube such as White Label BAC and see what happens. Then try Carnuba Red if the BAC does not give good enough results.

Lube isn't the problem here--it's powder and how much he's using, plus the auto-disk doesn't always throw consistent charges with Unique.

I use an auto-disk when loading larger quantities of .45ACP, but I don't use Unique for that very reason.

So, as one who casts that exact same boolit and sizes it exactly like you do and lubes it with a 45/45/10 blend and who DOES get one ragged hole, let's look at some of the previous advice.

First off, 35Remington is dead-on square 100% right. He knows .45ACP as well as anyone alive and shooting and is an encyclopedia when it comes to problems/solutions with .45ACP handloading. The Lyman data is dated, and to the point to where that Unique charge is borderline dangerous and could possibly blow a weaker/older gun up or at least cause some expensive damage.

Seeing as how .45ACP is one of the top 10 loads that reloaders load for, I'm a bit disgusted that Lyman doesn't care about reloaders and shooters enough to have corrected some data over the years. (But I'm not a Lyman fan anymore these days, and that is but one more reason among many as to why)

No problem sizing the boolit. I size every boolit I cast--always have, always will. There are already too many variables in casting and reloading. If I size all boolits, that is one variable I can eliminate.

Chargar gave you some excellent load/charge advice. In forty years of reloading, I've found that I have the best results, hands-down, with either Bullseye or W231--and in the charge that Chargar suggested starting with and working around (4.5 grains).

I've tried many other powders, and have kept coming back to those two: W231 is my first choice for the Lee TL452RN, Bullseye is the second. For my 200SWC, the order is reversed--Bullseye gives me ONE hole and W231 gives me one ragged hole. :)

I've loaded for a friend's Kimber and found the same thing--his gun prefers the W231 at 4.6 with that 230RN tumble-lube boolit. One ragged hole, no leading.

As for as the Taurus 1911? You're on your own there. I don't have one and have only shot a friend's who is one helluva shot. (He was a recon Marine in Vietnam, tunnel rat, and in the same platoon as Carlos Hathcock, with whom he stayed friends after the war and they met up and shot regularly including competition matches. He has the pictures to prove it, plus I met Hathcock at a match in Ohio where my buddy is from--and Hathcock and my buddy carried on like two old high school buddies.)

His Taurus was inconsistent until he did some tuning and some work on it. For sure, clean out ALL copper residue before running the lead through it. Most guns are that way (especially long guns/rifles), but if you're having some accuracy or consistency problems, that's another huge variable that is easy to eliminate.

So, for the loading portion, you can use the Lee autodisk with both W231 and Bullseye with good consistency--especially with the W231. But by all means, back up your loads with a scale! The volume conversion chart that comes with the Lee autodisk is ONLY A STARTING POINT! It can vary, sometimes by as much as HALF A GRAIN OR MORE with what the actual weight of the charge is when verified on a scale.

Cannot, I repeat, CANNOT emphasize this enough.

So, to summarize:

• 35Remington gave you some invaluable insight, knowledge and advice.

• Chargar gave you some top-shelf starting points with W231 and Bullseye for that boolit

• Graywolf was dead-on about scrubbing the bore of all copper before running lead through it.

• Other folks mentioned using a rest or sandbags to ensure consistency, as well as striving for one ragged hole in accuracy.

• I'm assuring you that there is nothing wrong with your boolit, how you're sizing and lubing it, and also urging you to try W231 or Bullseye with that boolit. I think you'll be VERY happy you did.

You're lucky. You're solution is an easy and inexpensive one--the cost of a pound of powder (maybe some scales if you don't have any. If you don't, PM me and I'll give you the conversion on autodisk that I use for both of those powders for the charges I use).

:coffee:

P.S. Unless I'm loading for bullseye match accuracy and results, I don't bother separating the brass by headstamp.

45 2.1
11-23-2010, 12:20 PM
I doubt if there has ever been a .45ACP case made that was as long as the chamber. But different case-lengths can be sorta engaged with a taper-crimp die, gently applied. A roll crimp will NOT be uniform enough for best accuracy, unless all cases have been trimmed.

And +1 on seating to engage the origin.

BTDT on both counts..... wore out a couple three handguns doing it. I'll use my method. Believe me, nobody here will be able to tell the difference between those methods when applied properly on each WITH NO TRIMMING INVOLVED. Match grade is relatively easy to do on a progressive provided you seat and crimp in different operations.

EDK
11-23-2010, 01:08 PM
When I was in the 45 ACP phase, I used a ton of 231 with the H&G #68...the hot set up for IPSC before compensated 38 Supers, etc. I was using two custom Colt government models; then S&W 645s and 625s.

Loading to try and use the ammo in the revolver WITHOUT moon clips is a good way to drive yourself crazy! You get clued in quickly that case length is all over the place and 45 autos MAY head-space off the case mouth...more likely the front edge of a semi wadcutter boolit like the H&G #68 OR in most cases the extractor. While no one else said a lot, I'd check the crimp with a micrometer and possibly experiment with that also.

Unique isn't that bad, but other choices are better. Power Pistol seems noisy to me...at least in revolvers...but Brian Pearce really likes it. Titegroup has worked well in other calibers and it is my "go to" powder.

Good luck

:Fire::castmine::redneck:

mpmarty
11-23-2010, 01:45 PM
Eliminate all variables you can. Change only one thing at a time. Keep written records of everything. You'll get there.

Bret4207
11-23-2010, 02:06 PM
Trim to what........... most of the 45 ACP cases i've measured have been too short. Seat the boolit to headspace on the rifling origin in the proper place.

To a uniform length of course! Doens't matter if they are "short" to start with, I still want them all pretty darn close to the same length.

ItZaLLgooD
11-23-2010, 11:31 PM
I do have the Lee scale and double check the charges when I set-up. I will try the 231. The local gun shop has Hodgdon HP-38. From what I understand it is the same as 231 now, right?

I will load up some test rounds with an increased charge of Unique and a few with the Titegroup to try out this weekend if I don't have to work. I probably won't get to the 231 until the middle of next week. I will also come up with some bags or a rest. I still have 100 or so of the original load for comparison.

I have been shooting the Taurus with this load for about six months. I usually just shoot at pop cans and milk jugs. It wasn't until I challenged my brother with his Kimber that I have actually shot at a paper target. Figures that I find out my PB reloads are all over the place then. I had hear about my Brazilian *** all the way home even though my groups with his Kimber made him look silly.

I load 5.2 grains of Titegroup under a 185gr plated bullet for him. They shoot really nice out of the Kimber but shoot about 6 inches low out of the Taurus and they won't lock the slide back on the last round.

Thanks for all of the advise guys, I love this site

Recluse
11-24-2010, 12:25 AM
I will load up some test rounds with an increased charge of Unique

:holysheep :shock: :holysheep

I hope you meant to type, "I will load up some test rounds with a DEcreased charge of Unique."

You're already at the top of the chart due to that old Lyman data.

:coffee:

ItZaLLgooD
11-24-2010, 06:57 AM
Load #1: 5.2 grains Unique / Lee TL-452-230_2R lubed with 45-45-10.


No. I meant increased. I am only at 5.2 grains of Unique for my original load. The next step in the autodisk should give me around 5.6 or so. That will still be under the max of 5.8 grains that the Alliant website shows as max. I still have about 3 lbs. of Unique to use up so it will be my best bet for now.

One of the early responders stated they used 7.0 grains of Unique in the ACP.

casterofboolits
11-24-2010, 11:53 AM
I started loading for the 45 ACP in 1973. Purchased 300 Winchester new cases and a couple hundred cast Lyman 452460 200 grain SWC's. Had read a gunrag article on loading the 45 ACP for accuracy. Loaded them up with 4.5 grains of BE and cut toilet paper into one inch squares and seated the squares into the cases with the eraser end of a pencil. Did this for quite a few years and on a good day I could get a 1&1/2 inch group at 25 yards. Those cases had ove 40 reloads on them and were starting to split and the rims were deformed enough that they would not go into the extractor slot causing jams so they were regulated to 1917 loads with half moon clips.

In the early 80's I got involved in IPSC and switched to the Lee 452-228-1R and then the Lyman 452374 45-225-RNPB over 6.8 grains of Unique. This clocked about 960 FPS out my 1911. Two other buddies shot the same load. One day we had a stage with a target partially concealled behind a metal trash can with billets of oak fire wood in it. Every one was doing head shots on the target. My one buddy shot really low, but the boolit went right thru the can and scored an A hit on the target! Busted a couple of the oak billets doing it.

The individual who chronographed the loads stood up at the IPSC meeting and stated that he would not chrono any more of our loads as he thought they were abusive to his gun and there was really no need as the loads far exceeded the required power factor.

We did end up switching to H&G 68's and much milder loads of 231. The Lyman data probably did some serious damage to some of the low quality 1911 clones that made thier appearance in the 80's or at least caused severe wear to them.

The Lyman 45 Auto Rim Data seems a more appropriate place to start. 5.0 to 6.6 grains of Unique.

Recluse
11-24-2010, 12:00 PM
No. I meant increased. I am only at 5.2 grains of Unique for my original load. The next step in the autodisk should give me around 5.6 or so. That will still be under the max of 5.8 grains that the Alliant website shows as max. I still have about 3 lbs. of Unique to use up so it will be my best bet for now.

One of the early responders stated they used 7.0 grains of Unique in the ACP.

Yep, my bad--I was looking at post #7 where you gave the 7.3 grains (Unique) number and thought you were at THAT load. . .

Whew. . .

I think it was past my bedtime when I typed that.

:coffee:

45 2.1
11-24-2010, 12:03 PM
To a uniform length of course! Doens't matter if they are "short" to start with, I still want them all pretty darn close to the same length.

Hahahaha.......... You actually trim 45 ACP cases. I measured 500 one time....... mixed headstamps........they were all within 0.005" of each other and about 0.004" under trim to length given in several manuals. Those cases shot match quality loads.

243winxb
11-24-2010, 12:12 PM
One of the early responders stated they used 7.0 grains of Unique in the ACP 6.5 gr Unique is maximum for me with a 230gr lead. AS always, start low on the powder charge and work up.
the max of 5.8 grains that the Alliant website shows as max. They are using a soft swaged bullet. The cast is harder and can handle more pressure. Target loads are better with Bullseye.

Three44s
11-24-2010, 12:16 PM
Count me with Graywolf!

As I read the original post, you are getting a consistent low POI with the first jacketed round after shooting lead loads ..... then things pull together?

As you bounce around between jacketed and lead ....... you are turning the temporary condition of your bores into "witches brews".

Remember the axiom about "fouling shots"?

Clean and re-foul with the bullet you are going to test with ...... then initiate the next test ... don't count fouling shots as your test ......

......... or you'll be forever chasing your own tail!

Three 44s

1Shirt
11-26-2010, 09:37 AM
Lots of words of wisdom here, and will add my 2 cents. One of the biggest problems with new casters/reloaders (those with less than a few years of casting/loading under the belt) is that they don't read enough, or discuss enough with experianced casters/reloaders. That is why this forum is so valuable, because there is a wealth of wisdom based on experiance here, and a lot of trial and error experiance as well. Am also convinced that those who have only one reloading manual are depriving themself of potential knowledge. There are a lot of free factory manuals and these are good for comparisons. A number of these are on the web. Have always found the Lyman manuals to be the best base manual, and have a number of then dating way back, as well as manuals from a number of companies. The Lee manual is a good cross reference, but would never use it as an end all. I never start with a new load without cross referencing powder charges between manuals. There can always be a printing error in one or another that can lead to serious problems. And, when working up a load, I always start on the low end of the charge scale. Have run into to many at the range who just start at the top listed charge, have split cases, blown primers, etc.etc.etc.
1Shirt!:coffee:

ItZaLLgooD
11-26-2010, 10:43 PM
The local shop usually has some free load data booklets from Winchester/Hodgdon and Alliant so I have a copy of those. They are basically the same as their websites as far as data goes. I also like to check at forums like this and then verify before loading.

So I tried my 2 new loads today.

Load #1: 5.7 grains Unique, OAL at 1.265
Load #2: 4.6 grains Titegroup, OAL 1.265

I shot lead until the end of the day when I tried some of the 185gr. plated bullets that my brother uses.

Both loads were better but the plated 185ers shoot a tighter group. I didn't clean the barrel before switching but they still shot pretty nice.

From an accuracy standpoint how does the plated 185 gr TC act different than the 230 gr LRN? Is it the plating or the weight? Both? I have a thread going in the mold section about modifying a Lee 230 TC to a 185 TC. Would this just add to the issue?

I should really say that I don't consider all of this to be a problem. At 20 yards I can still hit our 4" dinger fairly consistently. For my main purpose of plinking and local USPSA matches, this is more than acceptable. I am still curious though.