how did I manage to screw this up

[bigboredad]

Just picked up a new sbh hunter in .44 mag. Barrel slugs to .429 throats slug to .430 and I sized my bullets to .431. I cleaned the barrel making sure to get all traces of copper out and checked for any tight spots which there was none. My bullets are range lead water dropped and sized in a lyman 4500 with a home brew lube that has worked great with my .45 colt. I think I may have gone wrong with my powder choice and charge weight. I chose blue dot and 13.5 gr I got leading mostly from the forcing cone to about mid barrel length it was pretty heavy but at 25 yds accuracy was never bad it started at 5 shots at 1.5 inches and opened up to about 3 inches. so is my powder choice the cause of my leading? or is my bullet too hard? I'm kinda stumped here

[HeavyMetal]

Unless your "pushing" the 45 to the same pressure levels as the 44 your not comparing apples to apples.

You've not mentioned boolit weight or mold as well. So I'll go out on a limb here and say your load may be a little light for the hardness of the boolit.

Need more info before I would suggest any course of action.

[bigboredad]

oops sorry It is a 240 grain plain base lrn. I am working on getting a gas check design but would prefer plain base

[mooman76]

I agree with HeavyMetal. Since the leading stops in the last half of the barrel, it shows it is taking that long for the boolit to bump up. You could also try a slightly larger boolit. The brass when you load could be downsizing your boolit some also.

[bigboredad]

I forgot to mention that I've loaded a dummy and pulled the bullet and the bullet still measures .431

[HeavyMetal]

Yep! Check expander plug and bump up the powder charge.

My manuals show start loads in the 14 to 15 grain levels so you are indeed light.

If your looking for a "mid range" load go directly t Unique and don't look back!

You'll find 10 Grains of Unique under that 240 will do everything you want!

[44man]

Nothing you have done should cause a problem except one thing. "Range lead."
I suspect it is way too soft and is skidding. BUMP UP does not work if the boolit skids and how do you bump up a boolit larger then the throats and bore?
Try water dropping the boolits and if it still leads, add WW's or antimony and tin or save the range junk for sinkers.
Bioman gets 1/2" groups at 50 yards from his Hunter using a gas checked, water dropped WW boolit but for a PB, you need harder, about 25 BHN. 28 to 30 even shoots better.
If you are melting lead out of a lot of jacketed bullets, you are getting a lot of soft lead.

[bigboredad]

Thanks 44man i was hoping you would. chime in. I should explain my lead a little better. It is range lead mixed about 60/40 with wheel weights the 60 being the range lead. I water drop. They come out real hard but with out a tester I do not know how hard.

[44man]

Thanks 44man i was hoping you would. chime in. I should explain my lead a little better. It is range lead mixed about 60/40 with wheel weights the 60 being the range lead. I water drop. They come out real hard but with out a tester I do not know how hard.
We shoot many WD, WW, PB boolits out of the .454, .45 Colt, .475 and .500 revolvers without any leading along with great accuracy.
Your alloy would do better with a gas check so try a mold for one. One thing that helped in the .44 with softer lead was to anneal the checks.
Try a slower powder too like 2400 or 296. Get away from magnum primers. You want to slow boolit entry into the forcing cone.
You need to experiment by looking at the mechanical needs of the revolver, not theory. Recovered boolits tell a good story. You need to stop all skid at the bottom drive band to stop gas leakage.
Here are two boolits showing what I mean. The left .45 shows no skid but the higher pressure boolit on the right shows some at the front but the base band marks are no larger then the rifling, still seals and shoots great.

[bigboredad]

[smilie=b:I see and understand what you are saying and it all makes sense that's why I'm so confused. I knew I should have been using a slower powder but I used what I had on hand. I was able to find a couple of bullets in the berm and they didn't show any signs of skidding. One note about the alloy I'm using. I also use it for .45 colt I cast a 280 kieth style(I know my first mistake[smilie=1:) out of the same lead and can drive it to 1200with blue dot and hs-6 with no leading.
I had enough 2400 to load 12 round of 17 grains and I had some leading just past the forcing cone. I am working on getting a gas check mold but you know how it is living on SS well disability is not much better except I probably get to see more doctors than you ha ha. Any way I believe I should get some slower powder like you say.
[smilie=s:I've read a lot of your posts and they always have made sense to me and following you advice I've had great success in the .45 colt. So that's why I'm so confused about this .44. Funny thing is I have a .44 now because my son thought it would be cool to have the same guns.

[noylj]

From location of leading, your bullets are either too small or you alloy is too hard.
I didn't see it, but you bullets should be a tight slide-fit in the cylinder's throats. Your are over-size and will not slip through the throats. This means that the uncontrolled swaging down of the bullets by the throats may be damaging the bullets and you are not getting the gas seal you expect.
The fact that the leading doesn't continue the full length of the barrel means the alloy is not too soft and velocity was not too high. Also, the lube appears to be doing the best job it can.
You may simply need to size your bullets so they can pass through the throat without being swaged.
I do not see powder as an issue, unless the powder burns as a much higher temperature than other powders and you have a gas leak. In that case, you will simply have a worse leading problem.

[lwknight]

Thats exactly why I really like the higher antimony boolits. They never skid and 1/1000 over the slug size is plenty good to seal because they are somewhat springy.


I can use 40:1 ( for expansion) when hunting and if it leads a bit , who cares ? You don't shoot very many at a time when hunting.

[MtGun44]

Omit the water dropping.

Bill

[chboats]

In your OP you said that you slugged the barrel but did you make a slug of the forcing cone and the first half inch of barrel. MtGun44 and 44man helped me out with a constriction problem in the barrel where the barrel is screwed into the frame. I had the same type of leading.

Carl

[bigboredad]

no I haven't. I do not know how to slug just the forcing cone area

[44man]

I don't foresee a constriction because the tight spot will not lead, only past it as a boolit is made smaller then the rest of the bore.
The only things that cause leading in the cone or just beyond is boolit deformation, skid that opens gas channels, way under size boolits and yes guys, lead so soft it tries to go out the gap!
It does not sound like he is shooting under size boolits. I have zero problems with a .430" boolit in a .430" groove and .4324" throats.
You do NOT need super tight fits to throats.
I still say there is enough skid to open channels. It only takes a few gas molecules width.
Yes, softer lead can seal better but with boolit deformation, loss of shape, squeezed down lube grooves, loss of lube at the gap and then soft lead will lead the bore easier then hard lead does.

[Larry Gibson]

I'll chime in and say I agree that if you are not pushing the .45 Colt loads to the same velocity then it is apples and oranges. I also shoot a lot of recovered "range" lead in the .45 Colt, the .44 magnum and other handguns. I add 3% tin to the range lead which changes the alloy composition making for better bullets. This stopped the leading I was getting with just plain range lead.

I also size all of my .44 bullets at .430 and I get excellent accuracy out of my Colt Anaconda, Ruger FTBH, Hawes and TC Contender. I have used .429/.430 sized bullets in a lot of other .44s over the years and have always had excellent accuracy unless there is a gross discrepency between the cylinder throat and grove size.

I also use BlueDot in the .44 Magnum and published a comprensive velocity/pressure test between the older Hercules and newer Aliant BlueDots. That report is available here; search Hercules Blue Dot VS Alliant Blue Dot; 44 Magnum. My starting load was 14.5 gr so your 13.5 gr load may indeed be a bit low for that powder. I found 17 - 17.5 gr to be excellent with that bullet. Subsequent shooting has shown that 17 - 17.5 gr of BlueDot under a 240 - 250 gr cast bullet is an excellent "magnum" level load. However, the alloy and lube must be up to the job.

I used the RCBS 44-250-SWC-K in the test. There is no reason your Lyman PB bullet should not do well if cast of the range lead/tin alloy and WQ'd (will make the BHN similar to the alloy I used) up to 1350 fps or so.

That brings up "a home brew lube that has worked great with my .45 colt". Your "home brew" may not be up to the task for the .44 Magnum as mentioned. I suggest you try some Javelina, Lar's 2500+ or BAC , all are proven performers with cast bullets loads using even softer alloys.

Larry Gibson

[snuffy]

Never mind--------

[chboats]

44man is probably right about the constriction but it's easy to check and eliminate that as a possible problem. The way I slugged the forcing cone was to cast the longest boolit of the softest lead you have, pure is the best. Don't worry about getting a rinkle free boolit. Insert the slug base first into the forcing cone. Put a piece of hard wood through the frame on to the slug. Tap on the wood to force the slug into the forcing cone until it is flush with the back of the barrel. I used a plastic mallet in case I got too close to the gun. From the barrel end tap out the slug with a brass rod. I did the same type of thing from the muzzle. You have to put the right length of rod in to the barrel before you tap the slug into the muzzle There may be better ways but it worked for me.

Carl

[fredj338]

SOunds like you are looking for a 1100fps or so load. I think your alloy may be a bit on the hard side. I shoot 25-1 alloy to 1100fps w/ little to no leading using 2400. BD is not much faster than 2400, so I don't think it's powder, but try aircooled w/ the same charge or bumping the charge a bit. W/O a chron or even hardness tester, it's kind of hit or miss, especially w/ range lead. You really have little idea what exactly you are mixing the ww with.

[MtGun44]

Try 10 gr Unique first. After that, if it does not work, get some known good lube
like LBT Blue or 50-50 NRA.

I think it is a lube failure.

Bill

[bigboredad]

I really don't understand the lube failure. If I can shoot a heavy .45 colt bullet above 1300 without leading why can't I shoot A .44 bullet above 1300 without leading.