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View Full Version : OAL concerns for Lee 452-230-TC



Jech
11-16-2010, 07:08 PM
First some pertinent data...

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Handgun: SA XD45 5" Tactical
Bore dia: slugs out to .4505" - .451"
Boolit: Lee 452-230-TC (conventional lube groove)
Boolit material: WQ'd 20-1 range lead/linotype alloy
Sizing method: Lee .452" push-through sizing kit
Lube: 2 coats of 45-45-10, one applied before sizing, the other after
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Okay so I've got about 250 of these 230gr TCs cast up and I'm getting ready to put a few loads together for accuracy/reliability testing but I'm running into a snag with the cartridge overall length.

I made a few dummy rounds to test how well they would cycle in my gun; the cartridge OAL was 1.225" and the case mouth mic'd at .4725" putting 1/32" of the side of the bullet sticking out of the case. At this length, they failed the clink-in-the-barrel-case-gage test but to get them to clink properly, I had to seat them all the way down to 1.162" which puts the case mouth a snot-hair past the side-to-cone transition.

For curiosity's sake, I cycled the longer 1.225" dummies through anyway and observed a small ring of lead around the bullet after extraction confirming they were not only headspacing on the lead but getting jammed into my gun's short freebore. Aside from the smushed lead ring, the cycle test was 100% functional. The shorter 1.162" dummies also cycled flawlessly.

I know we're only talking about the venerable low-pressure 45 auto here but I'm worried about loading up a live batch at such a short OAL. I normally shoot 200gr LSWC and 200gr RNFP bullets with 5.0gr of HP-38 and 230gr LRN bullets at 4.6gr. Is it really safe to try these "shorties" out? I was thinking about starting with a 3.5gr charge and working my way up from there just top be safe.

HammerMTB
11-16-2010, 07:17 PM
I load for my son's XD and the same is true. The 230TC Lee has to be in 'til the TC taper meets the case mouth to fit correctly. Longer and they won't even feed, which is a little more severe than your case. Thinking about it, that may be because I load them unsized, lubed with LLA instead of lube/sizing them.
I have not found the shorter COAL to be a problem, but if you don't like the way it adds up, you can load a sample and see how they shoot. If they show no signs of hi PSI and feed reliably, use the load. :Fire:

RobS
11-16-2010, 07:18 PM
Yepper the throats are short on the XD's. You have the exact pistol I have and with the Lee TC bullet you'll have to seat it so the brass mouth just meets the ogive of the bullet or a touch longer to get the bullet to feed. I remember my COAL being 1.18 though, but at any rate just start on the minimum charges in reloading data and workup your loads. If you have a chronograph that will tell you were you are at in a general sense for as the velocities increase so do the pressures.

Also when you look at data for other bullets you need to remember that the TC bullet is actually rather short in comparison to i.e. a round nose bullet so the COAL really isn't as big of a difference as you may think.

beerbeer95648
11-16-2010, 07:48 PM
I am loading that same bullet in a commander size 1911 w/Bar-Sto barrel. I was getting that same ring at the shoulder. I was loading them to 1.185" to get them to drop in the chamber (these were unsized), but was running into issues with the cartridges releasing from the magazine to early. When I started sizing to .452 I was able to get them to chamber at 1.225, but I had to be carefull with the crimp. I was getting about 30% that would not chamber, and would have to set those aside and run my crimp die down a bit to get a solid .472 at the mouth. Then they would barely chamber. I have never had as much crimp sensitivity with a .452 bullet before. When I pull bullets that have been crimped to .452, there is a distinct impression from the case mouth. But, otherwise they will not seat.

Gohon
11-16-2010, 11:10 PM
In my Taurus I seat the Lee 452-230-TC to 1.176 OAL. Works fine for my gun with no problems.

chris in va
11-16-2010, 11:23 PM
Same issue with the 9mm TC design, and current Lee 452-228-1R mold (round nose). It finally 'clinks' at 1.21oal, no issues. Charge it on the lighter side.

frkelly74
11-17-2010, 12:27 AM
I also have struggled with this problem in a rock island 1911 A1 copy. I am using the 230 TLTC bullet and it needs to be seated so that there is no side of the bullet showing . I crimped the daylights out of some and got big time leading. I have been sizing at .452 and belling the mouths good and the leading has eased up a lot. I still get an occasional failure to feed when the nose stops on the edge of the chamber. then a bump on the back of the slide usually closes it the rest of the way. I am using 4.5 gr bullseye. Also I am using this load in aluminum cases with the small pistol primer.

BTW what do your bullets weigh? Mine tend to go heavy as I am using scrap lead that is on the soft side. Some have made it to 250 gr.

RobS
11-17-2010, 02:49 AM
frkelly74:

If your bullets are runnin at 250 grains your alloy sounds like it is pretty soft (darn near straight lead) as most of these molds drop bullets at 235-240 grains from straight WW alloy. If you are having issues with the bullets leading it could very well be they are soft enough that when you seat the bullets they are being swagged down by the case causing undersized bullet diameters. You may be able to water quench the scrap lead if it is too soft and possibly be better off.

Jech
11-17-2010, 02:56 AM
I'm using berm-mined range lead alloyed with about a pound of linotype for every 20 pounds of range lead. My TCs weigh 230.4-234.2gr so far.

mpmarty
11-17-2010, 11:08 PM
I'm another XD shooter who was forced to the truncated cone boolit. I chose the tumble lube design and shoot them as cast after LLA/JPW tumble. No worries. I seat mine to the point of the case neck being right at the junction of the ogive and driving bands. five grains of Red Dot and I'm good to go.

Jech
11-18-2010, 01:17 AM
Just got back from the range trying out the 1.162" OAL...

I was surprised to discover that 3.8gr of HP-38 shot and functioned fine, I was expecting stovepipes. When I shoot 200gr LRNFP bullets, I load 5.0gr of HP-38, anything less generates multiple stovepipes. 5.0gr actually fails to slidelock every now and then so I know it's on the very bottom of the spectrum.

4.2gr and 4.6gr were smooth sailing...cases started looking cleaner and the smoke puffs got smaller; something I expected knowing how W231/HP38 behave when loaded closer standard levels as opposed to reduced target velocities.

5.0gr and 5.3gr was stout...the latter felt like it might have been abusing the brass more than necessary...recoil was a close approximation to factory 230gr RN FMJs.

I'll probably settle with the 4.2gr charge for target purposes but I'm curious to run some sub-3.8gr tests to see how low I can go before I start seeing stovepipes and slidelock failures.

thegreatdane
11-18-2010, 06:50 PM
<-- Subscribed, because i just cast my first 230TCs a few days back. I'll be loading them up soon, probably with Titegroup, HP-38, or Clays.

Jech
11-18-2010, 10:14 PM
Over at TheHighRoad.org in an ongoing discussion, I posted a much more detailed string-by-string analysis of a trip using a 1.245" OAL if that would be of interest to you. I'm "Jech" over there too :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=535877

casterofboolits
11-20-2010, 12:27 AM
Jech,

I looked at the thread you posted and the pic of your RNBB boolit. Magma? Right? If so, there could be the problem. It has very little ogive and is more of a hemisphere. This will cause problems with COL and will stick out too far if you load it to standard COL.

I seated that boolit with about 1/32 of the shoulder above the case mouth. Compared to the H&G #34, the magma is a stub!

Also the suggestions for more flare is valid, not enough flare and you will shave some lead from the boolit which can cause chambering problems. Personally, I have never used the Lee FCD, just a standard RCBS or CH taper crimp die. I would also suggest you lightly chamfer the inside edge of the case. I do this with all my 45 ACP the first time I prep a batch of new cases.

Jech
11-20-2010, 02:08 PM
If you look at some of the timestamps on that thread, it's been going since July :P I haven't shot that Magma RNBB made by Missouri Bullet Company in a while, it fed well enough but it was too hard an alloy (noobie mistake in ordering) and the ogive radius just didn't work as well as I wanted it to.

I don't really have any noteworthy leading anymore either so the thread's original title and purpose are pretty outdated. There's so much in there though, it kinda morphed into an ongoing saga, my personal quest to shoot leading-free cast...but that was before I discovered CastBoolits!

I'm really looking forward to hitting the range today, my new 6-cavity Lee 452-200-RF showed up yesterday and compared to the first 452-230-TC mould I picked up, the quality of the piece was much higher. After a quick soak in mineral spirits, dousing with brake cleaner and a few minutes a toothbrush and some dawn, it dropped flawless boolits on the second pouring. ((I botched the first pour, had the hotplate up too high so the sprue took almost 45 seconds to cool...yuck!))

thegreatdane
11-23-2010, 11:47 AM
I really enjoy that 452-200-RNFP. It's the only thing I shot in my XD, before I traded up for the XDm-45.

I just bought my 452-230-TC and after reading this thread found the OAL concern to be true. XDs don't like large OALs in the Lee230TC. Mine seems to like 1.190 ish.

Jech
11-23-2010, 06:51 PM
Don't get me wrong, the gun functioned great with the TCs once I was seating it deep enough but my specific 452-200-RNFP mould was made so much better that it'll be all I shoot now...the boolits just fly out of the thing!

Beyond the context of the original post, ((I can hijack my own thread right? :P)) I haven't given up on the 452-230-TC mould yet...it would be nice to have the heavier boolit for when I shoot steel matches. I've had to leement the hell outta this thing though and it's getting really frustrating. Sanded down the mould block face, polished the prue plate, chamferred/deburred the sprue plate holes, seasoned the cavities with Marvel Mystery Oil, lubed the bolts the plate pivots and locks onto as well as added a touch of anti-seize to the threads, soaked it in mineral spirits for days, hosed it down with brake cleaner, gave it a 30 minute scrubbing with an electric toothbrush and dawn....the list goes on and it still won't give me pretty bullets ><

After having the sprue plate cam level snap clean off in my hands and it dropping boolits that were .005" out of round, I sent it back to them for a replacement. Much to my displeasure they only replaced the broken handle and swapped which end the plate pivoted on and told me they couldn't find any out-of-round cavities. I suppose I should have sent them one of my example that measures .4507" on one side then .4558" on the other >< live and learn right? At least they compensated me for the shipping...

I guess for shooting steelies I should pick up the 452-255-RNFP mould since it's the same thing as the butter-like 452-200-RNFP but with an added lube groove :Fire:

derek45
12-04-2010, 07:29 PM
1.175 " runs fine in my KART barrel'd 1911

Jech
12-06-2010, 09:45 AM
Another little update to go along with my 11/17 range report...

1.162" OAL using the 230gr TCs again, 3.4gr and 3.6gr of HP-38 were both not enough to cycle the slide, sometimes even leaving the fired case in the chamber. For my stock XD45, 3.8gr seems to be the bottom end of reliable function with 4.2gr being a happy operating zone. That one is going into my pet load record book :)

chris in va
12-06-2010, 11:24 AM
My Lyman manual has HP-38/231 listed at 4.0-5.8, so 3.4-3.6 is definitely under minimum charge.

It also points out 231 is the most accurate out of their test barrel.

dicko
12-07-2010, 05:05 PM
Okay so I've got about 250 of these 230gr TCs cast up and I'm getting ready to put a few loads together for accuracy/reliability testing but I'm running into a snag with the cartridge overall length.

You have undoubtedly got a very short throat, as another contributor has also said. I am not familiar with that gun, but I have cast tens of thousands of that bullet for customers, with no problem that I know of.

Dale53
12-07-2010, 05:35 PM
The Classic "standard" load for 230 gr Hard Ball is 5.0 grs of Bullseye. Since 231 is somewhat slower burning than Bullseye, your 4.2 should about be the equivalent (or a bit slower) of 4.0 Bullseye. In other words, in the "target load" category.

Due to the shape of the Lee TC it will ALWAYS be seated to a shorter overall length than jacketed hard ball.

My Lee 230 gr TC is a particularly good six cavity mould. The bullets practically fall out of the mould when it is opened. The bullets are not as round as my Custom Mihec moulds (nor am I surprised) as they are a couple of thousandths out of round. However, they size nicely and shoot very well (just about 1 1/4" at 25 yards consistently).

I have three 1911 platforms, two custom guns and a Kimber CDP Ultr II with 3" barrel. I set the bullet up using the shortest chamber in the bunch as a gauge. I deliberately headspace on the bullet for consistent ignition. I size my bullets to .452" and seat them until a loaded round dropped in the chamber is seated with the base of the case flush with the barrel hood.

I get NO functioning problems and the rounds shoot well in my two S&W Model 625's, also. I get absolutely NO leading. My bullet alloy is WW's+2% tin. My lube is Lars White Label Carnauba Red. I use Lees Factory Crimp die and taper crimp to .470" measured at the extreme case mouth of the loaded round.

The Lee 230 gr TC is my choice for a service load in the 1911's. It makes for a near instant reload for the 625's with full moon clips, also. For target loads, I prefer the MiHec H&G #68 200 gr SWC as it cuts a clean hole in the target and shoots a bit more accurately (well under 1" at 25 yards off a rest).

Dale53.

Jech
12-08-2010, 04:56 PM
Some great info there Dale, thank you! When you headspace on the bullet, are you chambering against the ogive angle or does the force of the cycling slide "jam" the bullet into the freebore?

I know that's not very descriptive, I'll try to snap a picture or two later tonight when I'm not time-constrained by my lunch break. My linear thought was if any jamming is occuring, it could randomly be enough to squish off a ring of lead that fouls the chamber in rare/occasional circumstances.

Ninja edit: the idea of the pressure-homogenizing bullet-headspace is really attractive, gotta work up some different OALs and see how these do next range session.

gray wolf
12-08-2010, 05:30 PM
I load my 45 ACP bullets the same as Dale53 ( good man )
My rounds drop into my barrel under there own weight and sit flush with the barrel hood,
Or perhaps 5 to .008 below. But mostly flush with the hood.
They do not stick in the barrel but just make enough contact to stop them from going any deeper. IMHO they do not go any deeper as the pistol functions.
I don't think the inertia of the slide will make them go deeper, or walk out of the case.



My linear thought was if any jamming is occuring, it could randomly be enough to squish off a ring of lead that fouls the chamber in rare/occasional circumstances.

That is a justified concern, can it happen sure,
Has it happened to me in the last 5,000 rounds ? no not to any degree that I have noticed
nor has it caused me to have to take notice.
I am sure a little build up of crud is possible at the junction of the ogive and the spot it contacts the barrel, but again, no problem here or for my shooting friend
with another 5 or 6,000 rounds fired.
With all the different lengths found in the 45 case I don;t see any other way to have the back of the case in the same place every time.
I am sure Dale will get back to your question.

Sam

Dale53
12-08-2010, 07:00 PM
Yes, I am headspacing on the bullet. Keep in mind, my suggestions are for cast bullets, only. You must allow a bit extra headspace for jacketed bullets as they are SO hard that there is NO give on them whatsoever. So, you have to allow for a bit of dirt impeding the slide from completely closing. You DO have a bit of wiggle room with cast as it will engrave the rifling a bit if one round is just slightly long.

During a five year period, I shot 75,000 rounds (actual count) of .45 ACP's in my 1911's (mostly in one gun) without a single failure to feed. That includes 50 major IPSC matches as well as two Soldier of Fortune three gun matches.

This is a proven method of seating cast bullets whether round nose, SWC, or Truncated Cone. NOTE: you do the same thing with jacketed bullets but you must allow a bit more clearance (up to .010") for absolute reliability.

Dale53