.40 S&W with tight group advice?

[Iowaguy]

I just purchased some Suter's choice formerly "Shooters Choice" .180 gr hard cast bullets and am having difficulty finding any load data or info on this bullet like hardness, Brinell etc.
Also am having a pickle of a time getting info on what I should be doing as far as heavy or light loads to minimize leading. Some say to only go light with hard cast and others say send em screaming to avoid the dreaded leading.
Does anyone have any experience with this bullet and this powder?

[geargnasher]

Yes. There is so much you need to know at this point it is really beyond the scope of a single post, so I'll highlight.

1. The .40 can be very difficult with cast boolits because of commercial reloading die dimensions and misconceptions about the pressures involved. Most reloading dies do not expand the case enough and cast boolits get swaged undersized when they are seated, and the resulting gas leaks cause major leading.

2. Harder boolits are not any more resistant to leading the bore than soft ones, often the opposite is true. The basics of what causes leading are often misunderstood and there are mountains of misinformation about it. The truth is, balancing the pressures of the load to the hardness of the alloy, the twist rate of the gun, and using a good lube all help. The absolute most important thing, though, is FIT. The boolit needs to be just a bit larger than the groove diameter of the barrel so it will "obturate" the bore, meaning that it will seal completely and allow no combustion gases around it. If the obturation is compromised, gas jets will erode dust from the boolit as it goes down the barrel and that will be ironed on the bore as the boolit passes over it. Gas leaks can also be caused by using too fast of a powder which builds pressure and launches the boolit way too fast into the rifling. This can cause skidding of the lands and open up leaks as the engraving is too wide to seal. The secrets to stopping leading are boolit fit, balancing the load, good lube, and a good clean gun. Make absolutely certain that, before you ever try to shoot cast, the barrel has been completely cleaned of all copper fouling. Lead will stick by abrasion to copper like you wouldn't believe. Use a good copper solvent to get rid of it.

3. The lube on most commercial cast boolits is terrible and often causes problems.

4. Titegroup is not an ideal powder for the .40, but it will work. Start with three grains and work up, in my gun four grains is over the top.

5. The .40 likes slow powders like HS6, Longshot, Blue Dot, etc. in my experience, and I've run the gamut of powders, alloys, and lube in this caliber.

6. If you do get the "dreaded leading", don't let it ruin your day. It's really not that big of a deal. Go buy a COPPER Chore Boy scrubbing pad (make sure it's solid and not copper-plated steel), cut "patches" out of it like cleaning patches, wrap them around a bronze brush and scrub your barrel with them. Just a few swipes and it will scrub the lead out. Follow up with your normal cleaning regimen.

This is just the beginning, but we can walk you through the process and help you troubleshoot as you go. Shooting cast is easy once you know what to do, but it is much more involved and less forgiving than shooting jacketed bullets. Also remember, each gun seems to be a rule unto itself and this really shows up when you start shooting cast boolits in it. Often, what works for one person won't work for another, and if you get contradictory advice, consider all of it because my experiences won't be the same as the next guy,s, but both are valid.

I'll bet you'll be casting your own before the end of the year!

Gear

[Iowaguy]

Yes. There is so much you need to know at this point it is really beyond the scope of a single post, so I'll highlight.

1. The .40 can be very difficult with cast boolits because of commercial reloading die dimensions and misconceptions about the pressures involved. Most reloading dies do not expand the case enough and cast boolits get swaged undersized when they are seated, and the resulting gas leaks cause major leading.

2. Harder boolits are not any more resistant to leading the bore than soft ones, often the opposite is true. The basics of what causes leading are often misunderstood and there are mountains of misinformation about it. The truth is, balancing the pressures of the load to the hardness of the alloy, the twist rate of the gun, and using a good lube all help. The absolute most important thing, though, is FIT. The boolit needs to be just a bit larger than the groove diameter of the barrel so it will "obturate" the bore, meaning that it will seal completely and allow no combustion gases around it. If the obturation is compromised, gas jets will erode dust from the boolit as it goes down the barrel and that will be ironed on the bore as the boolit passes over it. Gas leaks can also be caused by using too fast of a powder which builds pressure and launches the boolit way too fast into the rifling. This can cause skidding of the lands and open up leaks as the engraving is too wide to seal. The secrets to stopping leading are boolit fit, balancing the load, good lube, and a good clean gun. Make absolutely certain that, before you ever try to shoot cast, the barrel has been completely cleaned of all copper fouling. Lead will stick by abrasion to copper like you wouldn't believe. Use a good copper solvent to get rid of it.

3. The lube on most commercial cast boolits is terrible and often causes problems.

4. Titegroup is not an ideal powder for the .40, but it will work. Start with three grains and work up, in my gun four grains is over the top.

5. The .40 likes slow powders like HS6, Longshot, Blue Dot, etc. in my experience, and I've run the gamut of powders, alloys, and lube in this caliber.

6. If you do get the "dreaded leading", don't let it ruin your day. It's really not that big of a deal. Go buy a COPPER Chore Boy scrubbing pad (make sure it's solid and not copper-plated steel), cut "patches" out of it like cleaning patches, wrap them around a bronze brush and scrub your barrel with them. Just a few swipes and it will scrub the lead out. Follow up with your normal cleaning regimen.

This is just the beginning, but we can walk you through the process and help you troubleshoot as you go. Shooting cast is easy once you know what to do, but it is much more involved and less forgiving than shooting jacketed bullets. Also remember, each gun seems to be a rule unto itself and this really shows up when you start shooting cast boolits in it. Often, what works for one person won't work for another, and if you get contradictory advice, consider all of it because my experiences won't be the same as the next guy,s, but both are valid.

I'll bet you'll be casting your own before the end of the year!

Gear

Thanks for all the information! I actually have been reloading for rifle for several years but when I realized the Republic was about to crumble into the sea.... I started thinking about loading for other calibers as well.. As far as casting goes I'm very interested. My forefathers were up in the Blue Ridge mountains and did all their own casting etc according to my Dad. It always intrigued me. I may have to go get some different powder as the TG works great with the 165 gr HP Reiners lead safe at 4.9gr but it may be a bit much with lead... I think.

[sargenv]

I believe the max charge with a 180 jacketed in Tite group is 4.7 gr (since it was the load I used for a long time in my Para P16) and that was seated to 1.175". Personally, I don't like using such a high nitro powder with lead bullets, it burns really hot. Now for competition, the powders ppl use is not neccesarily what everyone else uses.. they like the fast burners since they seem to give less of am impulse than with the slower burners like gearnasher reccommends. Unfortunately you are usually running close to the edge of what the cartridge and/or gun can take and if you are not careful, you will go overpressure and cause bad things to happen. Clays, Titegroup, 700x, Bullseye, and some of the faster Vitt powders are usually utilized.. I tend to go with fast but not "as fast" powders like Solo 1000 (single based), Universal clays (similar to Unique), PB, Ramshot Competition and the like.. I think I bought a pound of clays one time but gave it away since I just got a "bad vibe". I guess it kind of depends on what you want to do with the load in question. Right now my powder of choice is up in the air.. I am tending towards PB since I have a good stock of it but I am using the 9mm brass into 40 cal HP's for my competition so a medium burner is likely what I'll use to make "power factor". There is a lot of info out there not all of it good.. keep on searching. Gearnasher has some good points.

[gray wolf]

I have a post going also about loading for the 40 but it made it to page two very fast.
Anyway I was given some 175 and some 145 TC grain lead bullets that were cast with an alloy like Lyman #2 the lube was hard but seemed OK. My cases were sized and the bullets seated with Lee dies. Tite group powder was the powder I chose to start with.
I also have Long shot and B/E. Long shot will be used for my second go round.
I have loaded many of the 40 with tite group and the long shot but only with J-bullets.
The pistol is a Beretta 96, It has a long lead after the chamber so loading long is not a problem.
Lead bullet loads were very hard for me to find, You can load lead the same way you load plated--but that data escapes me also. My load books are old like me Eh.
So I used the Hodgons data for the 155 grain J-bullets for the 145 lead and the
180 grain J-bullet data for the 175 lead bullets.
The point of this exercise was to come up with a VERY soft load so Julie could shoot all day
and not tear the gun up or have to deal with the hard shooting muzzle blasting top end loads of the 40 ( wish she would switch to a 45 and make daddy happy )
Hodgons data said that 155 grain J-bullets use 5.4--5.9 of tite group at 1.25 OAL
So I loaded the 145 grain lead like this.
4.00--4.2---4.4---4.6 of tite group OAL was 1.140 ( yes loaded long to keep pressure down.
4 grains was like a 9MM loaded down, the pistol worked just fine and the brass was so close to me I had to watch out I didn't walk on it. At ten yards they were 2" high and 1 3/4" left
the group was not good and that remained about the same until I got to 4.4 grains.
The 4.4 grain load fit under a 25 cent piece for the 10 rounds fired.
1 1/2" high and 1.3/4" left. recoil was very pleasant.
I do believe the bullets shot high because the Vel. was a little slow and they were still in the barrel as it recoiled up. 4.6 grains came down a little but opened up some.
The bullets were sized .401 and I had zero as in no leading. I fired 85 rounds total for the test including the 180 grain.
With the 180 grain I started with 3.00, 3.2--3.4--3.6 of the tite group.
3.2 was even with the bull but but 1 1/2" left, shot like a 9MM, 1'' at 10 yards.
3.00 and 3.4 were left and 2 1/2" groups. 3.6 shot an inch for 10 shots 1 1/2" high and 1/2 " left. Like I said NO leading.
Now that I know my loads are safe I will work them up a little more, I will only settle for POA
at 10 yards. If I had adjustable sights I would be all done and have some very soft shooting accurate loads. But I got fixed sights so on with the testing and I get to shoot more Eh.
I will do the same for the Long shot powder, I don't think I will try the B/E.
Edit to say I don't want to get into the die thing, but my lee dies worked fine, I did NOT use the FCD.Sam

[Iowaguy]

I'm loading for a S&W .40 4 1/4" service. I'm not loading to compete but to get better with the thing at a lower price. I have been shooting since I was 16 (1984) and have favored rifle mostly, and of rifles have stuck with more military type's Mini 14's Ar's Saiga, MN Etc etc.
I really like to shoot (although I never seems to have nearly enough time at the range to have a good day) but I still like shooting a lot. I like about 3 miles from the Izaak waltons where I have a membership but I don't make it out there nearly enough.
I'm pretty jazzed about reloading for pistol as I may actually be able to shoot as well as I did when I was a kid again.. maybe?
I also just like knowing that I put that ammo together and have a way to fine tune anything I want to get results that are acceptable to me.
It looks like (so far) this is one of the best forums out there for bouncing ideas off people without dealing with people's hang ups!
Thanks to everyone so far for giving me some more info on the subject!
I may (just because I have it on my bench) start with tightgroup and work some up to a max acceptable load. I'm not a far of light loads because I train for defense mostly and I always need the reality of the recoil to make me flinch (so it can be overcome) And because it would most likely be factory loads I used in a defense situation.
So my goal it to get these 180gr's out the muzzle with the most BOOM without going BOOM! and still be reasonably accurate.
I would love to find a data sheet of proven loads for this powder bullet combo, but if it doesn't exist now, maybe I'll create it. :)

[geargnasher]

Titegroup (yes, that's the way Hodgdon spells it) is listed at Hodgdon's website for 180-grain jacketed bullets, but I would start much lower than they recommend. Titegroup is very spikey with pressures, so I'd start at about three and work up in .2 grain increments. Like I said, four grains was starting to show signs of overpressure in my M&P with a Lee 175 TC cast from water-quenched wheel weights. Pretty low velocities, too. I was able to comfortably get into the 1K+ range with the slower powders with excellent accuracy, in fact better accuracy than with Jacketed handloads or factory.

Gear

[KYCaster]

While you're working with Titegroup, keep in mind that it is reversed temperature sensitive...as temp gets lower it burns faster. As Gear pointed out, it is also subject to pressure spikes as you approach the upper end of its useful pressure range.

IMO, these two characteristics make Titegroup a poor choice for high pressure cartridges like the 40S&W.

Jerry

[noylj]

So far, I haven't found any cartridge that TiteGroup performs well in. Poor accuracy and spikey pressures.
I would recommend that anyone starting to load for a new handgun cartridge start with 231/HP38 or Power Pistol. Those work as good baseline powders to work from.
I can say that AA5 is frighteningly accurate in my .40s, but there have been several KBs with AA5. I don't know how a powder can be bad when it hasn't shown any signs of spikey pressures like TiteGroup,, N310, or Clays...

[geargnasher]

Actually, Titegroup is a good powder, but like all powders you have to know when to use it and when to leave it in the cupboard in favor of something else.

The medium pistol powders will work just fine for the .40, but IME the medium powders work best in the .40 when loaded like, and to, .45 ACP pressures. That means about 750 fps for a .40 caliber boolit in the 175-grain range, air cooled wheel weights between 10-13 bhn, and just about any kind of wax/grease/oil lube. Even tumble lube can work here.

If you're wanting to push the thing to its normal design pressures and velocities (mid-20K psi and 1100 fps) with cast, that can be done but it requires some tinkering and the slow powders I mentioned or you'll go overpressure before crossing 1K fps.

How you do it is up to you. I like factory ammo performance from cast in my automatics, you may enjoy shooting more mild loads.

Gear

[gray wolf]

OK-- GEAR
This is all good Info. , and thank you.
I know you have a lot of miles behind you with the 40.
So let me ask you this, Would you advise that I use the Long shot and not the tite group ?
I still would like to stay around Min. Loads with the 145 and the 175 grainer's.
I think from what you say I should leave the B/E on the shelf for now.
So what say you.


Sam

[Iowaguy]

Well I may have to get some slower powder and work up.. I'm not sure what to look for when it comes to over pressure in pistol really. Do I just look at the primer for protrusion and the case for plumping? I'm more familiar with rifle really.

[geargnasher]

Sam, I would advise shelving the Titegroup and going with something slower, but not Longshot for your particular needs. Since you're working up a target load for Julie, why not load the .40 just like you do your .45 ACP? Use Unique, Universal, or whatever you use for it and load to the same pressure levels. Compare published pressure and load data between the two cartridges and see about loading your .40 to about the same pressures as maxed-out .45 ACP, then try some out and make sure the powder is burning completely and the slide still works. I have a plinking load for the .40 that makes a neat little pile of brass on the ground about three feet to my right and velocity is about 750 fps, although I prefer shooting full-house stuff in it most of the time because it is a defense pistol.

Gear

[Doby45]

Gear, PM me your little plinkin load...

[toddrod]

I use Titegroup for everything.

In 40, for a plinking load, I use 3.8g with either a LEE 145g SWC or a LEE 175g LTC.

[HammerMTB]

You've gotten a lot of good advice above.
Throwing my $.02 in, I use IMR 700X behind the Lee 175TC with success. It is still a fast powder, but not so fast as Titegroup. Just a bit faster than Unique. I make a lot of major PF loads for action games, and it seems to work well. It probably would not be my choice if I were shooting 50 yard target work.
Try for something short of 1000 FPS without signs of pressure, and that will work for you. :Fire:

[Iowaguy]

I worked up 10 rounds with a load of 4.2 gr of tightgroup and got signs of pressure. The primers were flatter but there is still a ring around them and the head doesn't look distorted.
Think I better just try another powder for this 180 gr cast round. The kicker is I had 3 rounds almost touching in the bull dead center and this was at 40 feet standing! Of course the rest were my usual flinches low left and a few high right. So i think this round has the potential to be accurate in the M&P. I am much better at point-shooting as I was trained by an old Marine this way (Dad) and am really comfortable shooting moving targets in this manner.
When I went to get my weapons permit some years ago I was tempted to point-shoot at the qual but didn't. I still got an 80% but barely.
Anyway, anyone know a good slow clean burning powder I should try?

[HammerMTB]

Anyway, anyone know a good slow clean burning powder I should try?

Have you looked at a powder burn rate chart to see what choices you have?
here (http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html)
You can see that Titegroup is near the top, i.e. fast. Down a bit is my choice, 700X, a bit slower. Below that are some choices of Geargnasher, Unique and Universal, slower still. If you follow the list as far as #60 (Bluedot), and choose from there or above (smaller #) there are plenty of choices. I think the chart I put up may be incomplete. I looked for AA#5 and didn't see it. I think I have used it in the past as well.
I don't know how your powder locker is stocked, so rather than pick one for you, if you look there at least you can choose or eliminate from stock you already have.