45 devastator and wheel weights and a few other questions

[jlmomaha]

Hello,
Please give me advice on this, I am strongly considering buying a 45 185gr devastator mold, all I have is wheel weights, I melt up 20 pounds and add 12" of antimony/tin solder to the mix, is this going to be good? I will probably water cool em, which will case harden em but when I size em it should soften em back up. I am debating on this or just buying another cheap lee mold 45 instead, I want something thatll feed good but still have expansion, I heard flat points are good for this for mild expansion but have some problems feeding?. I have read some horror stories with complications casting the devastator molds, any one got some tricks for this maybe just run the pot a little warm. any one cast in thier home or does this really need to be done outside? also I am going to be getting a 9mm lee tl 124gr rn and if I get the dev mold and it works good in 45 then maybe ill get a 9mm one after tax returns.

ok the 45 dev will be pan lubed and lee die sized, the lube will be candle wax, vasoline, and stp.

the tumble lube will be 45% lee alox, 45%johnsons paste,10% mineral spirits.

I have casted for a few years in various calibers, but you guys on here are the experts, and I am grateful for and humbled by your knowledge.

Please feel free to just throw useful knowledge and experiences at me, I am always eager to learn!!..

Thank you for any advice.

[gray wolf]

Wow you got a lot of questions there and some big demands for one bullet,
But that's fine --makes it interesting. The 45 HP is a good bullet, I shoot many of them--paper and critters. As for feeding all pistols are a little different--some have a problem with flat nose HP or otherwise, some don't like SWC and some 1911 will shoot anything you feed them. My HP from my Mi Heck brass mold are deadly accurate and feed great in my Springfield 1911.
If you want them to expand--your mix may be a little hard, and they don't soften up much with sizing. If they did why would we make em hard only to soften em up with sizing ? Plain WW not water dropped are even to hard for me with 45 Vel. in the area of 780 to 850. My best metal for these is 50/50 WW and pure.
I shoot them about 850 to 875 with a good lube and I use a sizer.
Some folks water drop for a 45 ACP just out of habit and some swear that it is better. Myself and many others will tell you It is just not needed.
45 ACP and expansion = soft bullet driven with a little juice behind it.
the softer the bullet the less speed needed, the harder the bullet the more speed to expand. Adding the antimony to WW to me is not needed, they have it as is.
and the extra tin is good if you have poor fill out.
What do you want the expansion for ? a 45 ain't gonna get any smaller EH.
But again, a flat nose, round nose, SWW, Trunc. cone ? They may expand with a very soft alloy --but not by much. How much expansion are you looking for and how fast are you planing on shooting them. How will you size the 45.
I would think about the candle wax and perhaps Sub. it with Bees Wax.
Also the 9mm is cast and loaded and shot by many--but-- keep in mind it is a hard Cal. to get set up properly, hard but not impossible.
You will get plenty of advise on your questions, hang in there.
Oh --you might consider the MI Heck brass HP mold for not much more that the devastator. much faster -- 2 hole--and for me anyway a lot easier to use.
Just my thoughts--trying to help.
Sam

[RobS]

Your alloy will likely be too hard and especially if you water quench from the mold to have any sort of expansion when considering 45 auto velocities. Air cooled WW is probably even a bit hard unless you anneal the WW alloy. I anneal in a small toaster/convection oven WW bullets for my 45 auto. I can bring the hardness down on the 230 grain HP's to 10 BHN which works quite well.

The bullet I use and later on in the thread (page 2) I have expansion info:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=66230&highlight=453640

[bhn22]

I'd suggest using a softer alloy if you want the hollowpoints to be able to expand. If you just want them for paper punching, what you have is fine. Perhaps 2 parts pure lead to one part wheelweights, then air cool the bullets (Sam did mention that you'd get some different opinions). Sizing doesn't soften the whole bullet, just the part that's sized by the die. Expansion is such an iffy thing with cast bullets, and most people will just suggest that you use a well designed semi-wadcutter and not count on expansion at all. Casting hollowpoint is not horrible, but it will work better for you if you remember that the hollowpoint pin needs to be kept really hot or the bullet noses might not fill out fully.

[jlmomaha]

ok,
Im thinking I am probably gonna go with a lee 2 cav mold instead, then when I add some more pure lead to my collection I will do a 50/50 ww/lead mix and order some dev molds. the 50/50 would be soft enough?
I want to stick with lee molds since I have the most exp with em, would you recommend TL or lube grove? and perhaps can you recommend a particular mold for 9mm and 45?
I know I ask alot of questions, but you guys know more than me so I figure it would be better to learn from you then the hard way...lol...

any advice is very much appriciated

[RobS]

50/50 would be soft enough for HP designs. Regarding TL vs traditional lube groove........depends on the person. I've done them both as I first started out with TL designs since I didn't have the $ to buy a lubricator. Now with the more time that has passed I have since left the TL design, purchased a lubricator and prefer the traditional lube design bullet as the lube cabilities are IMO better. Don't get me wrong a person can make a TL bullet work well if all ducks are in a row and I as well as many others have had success with the design.

As for Lee molds if you want a large meplat (flat part of the bullet) then the 452-200-RF is a decent mold and accuracy is good. I like the 452-230-TC bullet design too except the small bevel they put on the base of the bullet. The Lee 452-225-1R is an accurate bullet as well, but comes with two lube grooves which never impressed me much.

For the TL bullet designs the TL452-230-TC is a copy of the traditional lube groove TC bullet and shoots just as well. The TL452-230-2R is more like a ball style bullet so should feed in most firearms.

If you own a XD then forget about any bullet that has a front drive band shoulder on it i.e. SWC and even the TL452-230-RN design as the ejected round will catch the shoulder of the bullet and cause jams. Since I have an XD I have little experience with the Lee SWC designs.

I would go with the TC bullet either the TL or traditional design depending on how you want to lube. This bullet has fed in every 45 ACP I've loaded it for by simply adjusting the COAL.

For the 9mm a bullet that I turned my Dad onto is actually a revolver bullet, but works very well. The Lee 358-125-RF has turned out to be a great 9mm bullet and will cast out large enough to actually size to .358. My #1 suggestion for shooting cast bullets in a 9mm is to size at .357 to .358 if the chamber will allow for it as this clears up many of the problems that people have when reloading for this caliber.

[RobS]

One thing about Lyman molds is their QC is a bit iffy right now and you may very well end up with molds that cast out undersized bullets. As I watch people who talk about current production Lyman molds I see it about 60--40 and at a 40% likelyhood of having one cast undersized.................well lets say, I'm still waiting. If you do decide to purchase a Lyman mold buy one out of a company that has a good return policy so you are not stuck with a paper weight.

[HollowPoint]

One of the very first molds I was able to scrape up the money to buy was the Lyman .45 caliber devastator.

Being new to reloading and since I didn't know any better I used straight Stick-On wheel weights. I think my bullets had a BHN of about 7 or so.

I shot them out of my full sized Kimber with no feed or ejection problems but I got more leading than I wanted. I was just a "Lurker" of this forum at the time but, as I read up about the in's and out's of bullet casting it eventually dawned on me that there were a few things I could do to eliminate the leading.

Now the Lyman Devastator bullets are my go to bullets. They shoot great and expand as much or as little as I want them to by adjusting the hardness of my alloy.

It's true that some of these bullet molds can be off dimensionally and weight-wise but, this is also true of Lee bullet molds. My particular Devastator mold drops bullets close enough to their stated diameter and weight that I didn't have to resize until I altered the dimensions. I also have a couple of Lee molds that don't even come close to dropping bullets at their intended sizes. You Pays your money and you take your chances.

In the straight wheel weight formulation, -as soft as possible- I use these same devastator bullets out of my .45 caliber air rifle as well. I did have to open up the rear-most driving band to .457" for the best performance out of this air rifle.

When I cast for my Kimber 1911 .45 I just sized them back down to .452.

A while back I also made an adjustable hollow point pin that now allows me to cast semi-flat pointed bullets, cup pointed bullets and all the way up to 1/4" deep hollow pointed bullets out of this same Lyman bullet mold.

The only down side I could see with these Lyman Devastator bullet molds is that they can be kind of pricey compared to Lee molds; and they are single cavity. If you're going to be shooting alot, you'll also be spending alot of time in front of the melting pot.

HollowPoint

[geargnasher]

The Lyman Devastator works great for me. My mould (now two years old) cast .4515" with air-cooled wheel-weights, slightly smaller with 96-2-2 alloy, so I lapped it out to cast .453". It is very accurate and effective with the correct alloy at 750-850 fps, and will expand up to three times it's original diameter with near 100% weight retention with the 96-2-2 air cooled in that velocity range.

Here's a pic, fired from my Kimber Tactical Pro II. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20388&d=1267418624

My mould and at least three others that I know of casts a hair over 200 grains, I don't know where Lyman came up with their 180 number.

Gear

[jlmomaha]

ok im debating between lee 200gr rf or 230gr tc, non tl so I can pan lube. then
I am going to use a lee size die, throw ideas at me please lol... thanks guys!!!!!!

[Shooter6br]

Read Glenn Flyxell articles on 45 ACP HP's http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[canyon-ghost]

I use the Devastator in 9mm, they feed really excellent. Their profile is rounded so that they don't hang up much. Air cooled wheelweight doesn't give you much expansion but, I wouldn't want to be hit by one of them. It's a big hollowpoint. Mine casts at .360, big enough for .38 special or 9mm. I like it well enough.
When it comes to Lee, I'm the wrong advisor because, I just don't use their products.

I use the Lyman 4500 with heat and Carnuba Red Lube, that's my set up.
Ron

[RobS]

I would say go for the 200 RF as it is a true plain base bullet so you will be able to pan lube without worrying about the bevel, such as in the TC design, collecting lube and then having it migrate to the powder on warm/hot days.

[jlmomaha]

ok guys, Got the Dev mold, casted up some tonight, for every 20 pounds of ww I add a 12" stick of 95%tin/5%antinmony welders solder. well on alot of the casts I have some tjink its called flashing or bleed thru around the spud, I was running around 800-900 degrees.

Also I have another problem, I made up some lube, I used a candle 2" dia x 8" and 4 tea light candles, 2 scoops approx 4"x3"x2" of vasoline, then I mixed in a little under an ounce of lee alox also a red crayon for color. the problem being when I pushed the boolits out, the wax didnt stay in the groove a few kept it all in most had 1/4 to 1/2 of the groove unlubed and some had none...

please throw me some ideas, and as always I am grateful for any advice, I am also sure some of the responses will start with "what the hell are you thinking..lol"

thanks everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[canyon-ghost]

Sounds as though the lube is too hard. Good lube formulas are softer. Parafin wax is what everyone uses to 'stiffen up' their lubes. The old NRA 50/50 was beeswax and alox(a commercial lubricant, grease). By the way, that parafin is extremely flammable too.
You can look up Felix World Famous lube by formula here and see that it incorporates some mineral spirits (paint thinner) and other things that soften it up a bit. Vasoline isn't bad, you had the idea right. Some guys are using lard or Crisco the same way.
I don't make lube, easier to buy White Label for my sizer. Most of it is a combination of Beeswax, Carnuba, and alox. Beeswax is somewhat softer, Carnuba the real hard stuff, and alox the softest.

Don't know if that tells you much,
Ron