Ac 50/50

[NSP64]

I switched to air cooled 50/50 mix (wheel weights/pure with a touch of tin) because I bought a Devastator mold in 44.
Went to the range today. OK accuracy,lead everywhere (12 rounds between 1200-1350 fps).
This same load in WDWW is accurate and fast with NO leading. Is there something I'm doing wrong? The only thing I changed was the alloy.
I switched because I wanted some expansion for deer hunting.

Load was Fed Lp primer, 20-22 gr 296.

[RobS]

I switched to air cooled 50/50 mix wheel weights/pure with a touch of lead because I bought a Devastator mold in 44.
Went to the range today. OK accuracy,lead everywhere (12 rounds between 1200-1350 fps).
This same load in WDWW is accurate and fast with NO leading. Is there something I'm doing wrong? The only thing I changed was the alloy.
I switched because I wanted some expansion for deer hunting.

"with a touch of lead" I'm assuming a touch of tin. Anyway your mix of 50/50 will run you around 6 or 7ish BHN I'm guessing and without a proper expander (.001 under the bullet diameter) to enlarge the case prior to seating, I'm betting the boolit is being swagged down by the case. Even at that your mix is qustionable for the pressures you're asking from it. If you did manage to get the case expanded enough I don't think there would be enough case neck tension to keep the bullets from jumping as I'm sure you are using slow pistol powders for the velocities you're pushing.

If you give us a bit more info about your loads that would help us too. A lot of assuming in my post as I don't have all the details, but I think I covered things.

[Three44s]

I would try using WW alloy as a starting point, you get no appreciable leading then alloy cautiously with some pure lead but I'd think that running that fast with 50/50 (WW/pure) would be tough to not lead.

Another thing to try would be to factor in liquid alox secondary to your regular lube and size to maximize your lubrication.

Also, I have had good results with 2400 and the RCBS 250K and reasonably reduced charges so you could back off the speed some ...... and see if you get a break from the leading.

My lead break in consists of cleaning with USP or JB bore paste (works to fine polish the internals, both bore and chambers) and finnish with CorrosionX ..... for my purposes, it works like seasoning a cast iron fry pan.

Three 44s

[45 2.1]

The alloy works fine..........let it cure out for a couple of weeks. Any WW alloy will be very soft for the first few days and do just what you experienced.

[NSP64]

45 2.1 Thanks for the info. I was wondeering if that was the case. My wdww could
be shot that fast within a couple of days of casting without any problems.

RobS, Thanks I hadnt factored in the softer alloy swagging down.

3-44s, I will have to try that.

[Ole]

What about using something like 10-12/1 PB/SN for a mix? Sure it takes more tin, but unless you're hunting with a Gatling gun the cost of the tin in your bullet is a pretty small consideration.

I can't remember what alloy Elmer Kieth used to use, but he had pretty good results with HP bullets and hunting.

[BABore]

Just tweak your WW% til you come out at 10-11 bhn. Cheaper. My local sorted WW's will make up a 9-10 bhn alloy mixed at 50/50 with Pb. All comes down to the WW makeup in your region. When I WD this alloy I usually hit 20-22 bhn after a couple weeks. I only add tin if I must. Most times it's unnecessary.

[geargnasher]

I switched to air cooled 50/50 mix (wheel weights/pure with a touch of tin) because I bought a Devastator mold in 44.
Went to the range today. OK accuracy,lead everywhere (12 rounds between 1200-1350 fps).
This same load in WDWW is accurate and fast with NO leading. Is there something I'm doing wrong? The only thing I changed was the alloy.
I switched because I wanted some expansion for deer hunting.

Load was Fed Lp primer, 20-22 gr 296.

Am I the only one that gets the issue?

Water-quenched wheel weights don't lead. That's 22 bhn after a week.

Air-cooled 50/50 leads like crazy. That's probably 8bhn at best after a month.

1200+ fps.

See the problem?

For good expansion at those velocities with good weight retention, water-quench the 50/50 in ice water, and DO have some tin in there, no more than 2% total because you don't want ever have more tin present than antimony, and you've cut your alloy to around 2% antimony as it is. Toughness comes in part from the Sb/Sn intermetallic, and if there isn't enough tin present the alloy will be somewhat more brittle and less "tough". This alloy should be in the upper teens on the hardness scale after a week.

Gear

[MtGun44]

Straight ACWW in plain base boolits like LBT and Keith styles does not lead at max .44 mag or
.357 mag velocities in any of my revolvers. This includes Lee's LBT style 158 BB mold.

I have used moderate amounts of 8 BHN mixed WW Pb (not some exact mix, just "whatever"
that tested about 8-9 BHN on my LBT tester) with no difference in several of the guns, not all,
but since I find pure Pb harder to get than WWt alloy, I just use straight WW and find
no need whatsoever for GCs or water dropping.

Bill

[fecmech]

I've had the same results as MtGun44. No problems with acww leading in the .357 or .44 mag in the 1200-1350 fps range and decent accuracy. Accuracy is a little better with a 50/50 WW/lino mix in the .357. ACWW's average about 3.5" groups @ 50 yds while the 50/50 mix will average 2.5" at that distance, the .44 doesn't care, it shoots as well with either. Also in my .357, water dropped ww's are no better than the ac version, don't know why they just are.

[44man]

I switched to air cooled 50/50 mix (wheel weights/pure with a touch of tin) because I bought a Devastator mold in 44.
Went to the range today. OK accuracy,lead everywhere (12 rounds between 1200-1350 fps).
This same load in WDWW is accurate and fast with NO leading. Is there something I'm doing wrong? The only thing I changed was the alloy.
I switched because I wanted some expansion for deer hunting.

Load was Fed Lp primer, 20-22 gr 296.
The boolit surface is not tough enough and they are skidding the rifling.
You need no expansion at all with the .44 for deer anyway, I use WD WW's. Only need a good meplat at the perfect velocity of the .44.

[BABore]

Am I the only one that gets the issue?

Water-quenched wheel weights don't lead. That's 22 bhn after a week.

Air-cooled 50/50 leads like crazy. That's probably 8bhn at best after a month.

1200+ fps.

See the problem?

For good expansion at those velocities with good weight retention, water-quench the 50/50 in ice water, and DO have some tin in there, no more than 2% total because you don't want ever have more tin present than antimony, and you've cut your alloy to around 2% antimony as it is. Toughness comes in part from the Sb/Sn intermetallic, and if there isn't enough tin present the alloy will be somewhat more brittle and less "tough". This alloy should be in the upper teens on the hardness scale after a week.

Gear

Only as far as blanket statements go.

Whether you can shoot AC'd or WD'd 50/50 depends entirely on the gun and sometimes on the load. I use 50/50 almost exclusively in both revolvers and rifles. Especially for HV loads. No matter what the boolit design is , or the velocity I'm reaching for, I always try 50/50 both air cooled and water dropped. My 41 SBH Hunter prefers WD boolits at 20-22 bhn in all applications. It's a rare load that will shoot with AC boolits. My 44 Mag SBH Hunter is just the opposite. My go-to mag load is the 429421 HP at 10 bhn over 24.5 grs of WW 296. My 480 SRH doesn't care a wit. I can load up AC & WD boolit with the same max charge of 296, mix them in the cylinder, and shoot groups with them. No matter what the alloy, your ill served to go just one way and say this is how its supposed to be. Compare both hard and soft boolits side-by-side during a load workup and let the gun tell you what is so. If you change powders, do it all over again as sometimes it can change things drastically.

[Bass Ackward]

Yep, the man that has time to play with hardness for different designs is not only "potentially" rewarded with results, but more valuable than that, he receives education.

He learns his firearm which is the greatest advantage of all. From that he learns to learn his other guns as well. He steps through a door. And that knowledge can lead him in other directions as well once that occurs. Limits change for you. Theories fall by the wayside.

This expands the world with cast beyond a cheap, simple replacement for jacketed. And it begins a journey. Problem is that it's almost like you learn to speak another language that others will dismiss.

That's their problem.

[BABore]

Ut Ooh! Bass has went either Yota or Ghandi on us. :groner:

Can't say I disagree though.:-)

[white eagle]

That is pretty intense

[RobS]

ehhh, it's not that intense............just people speaking out loud. Its once again soft boolits vs hard boolits and beyond. I've done them both and some firearms like it one way and others just simply don't. The real truth to anything is to document what you find so it can be duplicated later if need be. Wright it all down from the BHN reading, the alloy mix (to the best of your ability), diameter of bullets, how long your bullets aged, what temp you casted at, reloading dies used, powder charge dropped, seating depth, expander used, etc. etc.

Is it all necessary to make a gun go bang..................absolutely not.....................it will however allow your gun to go bang with the added bonus of having the projectile move along in it’s most accurate and intended means as seen fit by the fellow pulling the trigger.

[geargnasher]

Well, BA and Bass, what do you think that my point was? NSP64's gun just spoke to him, and I was attempting to translate. It said "With 20-22 grains of 296 and Fed primers I will shoot fine with one alloy, but you change it to something drastically softer I don't happen to like it, and will reflect such with a lead-streaked bore. Now if you don't like cleaning lead out, please go fix it." My guns have told me this before, I listen, experiment, listen some more, and sooner or later they'll grin real big and start working. That is usually accompanied by a light coming on in my head.

BTW, I wasn't making a general statement about 22 bhn always not leading and 8 bhn always leading, I WAS REITERATING WHAT THE OP SAID HAPPENED IN HIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE.

Gear

[NSP64]

I listened. Cast some WD50/50. we will see if SHE likes it. If not I have WDWW waiting in the wings.

Has to be a SHE, its so hard to please.

[geargnasher]

I listened. Cast some WD50/50. we will see if SHE likes it. If not I have WDWW waiting in the wings.

Has to be a SHE, its so hard to please.

Yes, but don't you wish the other "Shes" were that easy to understand? :veryconfu

Gear

[whisler]

Maybe not pertinent here, but wouldn't 50/50 ww/pure drop a smaller boolit than WDWW? Could that also enter into the situation or would the size difference be too slight to be of any importance? Just trying to learn from anothers experience!

[RobS]

Maybe not pertinent here, but wouldn't 50/50 ww/pure drop a smaller boolit than WDWW? Could that also enter into the situation or would the size difference be too slight to be of any importance? Just trying to learn from anothers experience!

It would be a bit smaller say around .0005 if memory serves me right.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, BA and Bass, what do you think that my point was?

It said "With 20-22 grains of 296 and Fed primers I will shoot fine with one alloy, but you change it to something drastically softer I don't happen to like it, and will reflect such with a lead-streaked bore. Now if you don't like cleaning lead out, please go fix it." My guns have told me this before, I listen, experiment, listen some more, and sooner or later they'll grin real big and start working. That is usually accompanied by a light coming on in my head.

BTW, I wasn't making a general statement about 22 bhn always not leading and 8 bhn always leading, I WAS REITERATING WHAT THE OP SAID HAPPENED IN HIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE.

Gear


Not picking on you. Let's take this a little farther.

The latest thread I saw was here a couple months back was the fella shooting the 35 Whelen without any lube. We knew it and his pictures showed muzzle fouling up the wazoo. He produced groups that are competitive with others. That was the most valuable thread ever written here for opening minds and attitudes and it died.

Of two cast shooters, which produces good, working accuracy the longest?

1. The guy with a clean gun that hopes it doesn't foul.

2. The guys who develops loads when fouled that says, I hope it doesn't go clean.

1 is the guy that has to clean most often.
1 is the guy that has to deal with point of impact and group size changes.
1 is the guy that has to sing "Like a Rock" when molding.
1 is the guy that has to worry about how many shots he uses before others will qualify his load as a group.
1 is the guy that has to go to massive guns, larger bores, and larger calibers to drive them because he needs frontal area when stuck with rocks.

So many of the subjects discussed here are from 1 type guys / situations. And 1s today think that they are so much smarter than those that were mostly 2s that came before us.

This board is DOMINATED by 1s. Some guns perform as 1s. Ignorance, fear of leading and laziness to clean keeps us from discovering if they should be 2s.

[felix]

Yeah, the third kind of guy who is lazy enough not to give too much creedence in any of it any more, by using chasers (a volly of slow very moving boolits) when accuracy needs to be re-tweaked during a long day's shoot. ... felix

[HangFireW8]

Of two cast shooters, which produces good, working accuracy the longest?

1. The guy with a clean gun that hopes it doesn't foul.

2. The guys who develops loads when fouled that says, I hope it doesn't go clean.

...

This board is DOMINATED by 1s. Some guns perform as 1s. Ignorance, fear of leading and laziness to clean keeps us from discovering if they should be 2s.

I guess I'm a 1.5. :)

Some of my guns shoot better fouled, some tolerate being fouled quite well, some need to be clean. Some can be converted from one kind to another through various break-in procedures, some cannot short of rebarreling. Some stay at a moderate level of fouling when shooting, some do not.

An essential part of sniper training is the "one shot, cold bore" test. What does the first shot from your particular cold clean bore do compared to the rest? If you already know, you have begun to deal with this issue.

My take on it is this. Learn what the system can and cannot do, learn what you can and cannot do about it, and adjust, adapt, and improvise accordingly.

I remember the Great Moly craze, which left a lot of discussion forums shattered, dazed and confused on the whole "leave it fouled" issue, especially when the words "sulpher" and "oxidation" get involved. Zealots abounded on all sides.

Most of the debate was pointless, as the proponents had different goals, different equipment, different standards.

What do I do? I live in a humid environment, so I clean my guns when I am done shooting. I also take notes all my shots, particularly my first shot of the day, not just the last best group of the day.

I have bench queens, hunting rifles, and in between. I don't know of a whitetail that gave me two sighters and the occasional alibi. The rifle I take hunting may not be my absolute best grouper on the bench. I do know where the first shot will go, though, and the second, from a hand or sling supported position, not just the benchrest. And I have a very nice benchrest.

-HF
PS I guess you are talking about this thread, too bad the pics are now missing: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=87949

[Bass Ackward]

Yeah, the third kind of guy who is lazy enough not to give too much creedence in any of it any more, by using chasers (a volly of slow very moving boolits) when accuracy needs to be re-tweaked during a long day's shoot. ... felix

Actually Felix, I would still put this as a two since the fear of lead will cause a 1 to clean anyway.

[Bass Ackward]

I guess I'm a 1.5. :)


Nicely put. And the intended use DOES affect all decisions. OR should anyway.

The point here is not really leading, or categorizing people, but having tried so that you know your firearm. And realizing that fouling is a normal situation as long as it stabilizes and doesn't continue to affect accuracy.

But the subject has to be broached to advance the knowledge. People who are opposites think differently and speak entirely different languages as far as technique.

It's just that it is the most ignored variable discussed and assumed that it doesn't / shouldn't ever occur. Recommendations to posters follow that thought process.

[shootingbuff]

I guess I'm a 1.5. :)

Some of my guns shoot better fouled, some tolerate being fouled quite well, some need to be clean. Some can be converted from one kind to another through various break-in procedures, some cannot short of rebarreling. Some stay at a moderate level of fouling when shooting, some do not.

What do I do? I live in a humid environment, so I clean my guns when I am done shooting. I also take notes all my shots, particularly my first shot of the day, not just the last best group of the day.

I have bench queens, hunting rifles, and in between. I don't know of a whitetail that gave me two sighters and the occasional alibi. The rifle I take hunting may not be my absolute best grouper on the bench. I do know where the first shot will go, though, and the second, from a hand or sling supported position, not just the benchrest. And I have a very nice benchrest.

-HF
PS I guess you are talking about this thread, too bad the pics are now missing: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=87949

Amen brother man

[felix]

Chaser rounds do not need to be lubed when shot within say 22LR speed. Using chasers is just another way of stroking the barrel to rid some of the lube buildup before purging actually takes place. Unfortunately, purging will not take place if the lube had gotten too hard between relays, and even then chasers might not work to satisfaction. Then, of course, ram rod action is required. ... felix

[geargnasher]

Nicely put. And the intended use DOES affect all decisions. OR should anyway.

The point here is not really leading, or categorizing people, but having tried so that you know your firearm. And realizing that fouling is a normal situation as long as it stabilizes and doesn't continue to affect accuracy.

But the subject has to be broached to advance the knowledge. People who are opposites think differently and speak entirely different languages as far as technique.

It's just that it is the most ignored variable discussed and assumed that it doesn't / shouldn't ever occur. Recommendations to posters follow that thought process.

Bass, you do bring up good points. This is human nature, and has to be dealt with everywhere, wise people always making the effort to fully evaluate the perspective and situation of anyone who posts.

That being said, I hate lead fouling, it is my enemy, and I'll tell you why. Lead fouling (when it occurs) usually makes the gun shoot unpredictably because its deposition evolves through long strings, or sometimes short strings. How much it matters depends on a thousand things, but where the lead is deposited seems to matter the most. If lead fills the rough spots on a revolver's forcing cone after two or three shots and never gets any worse (or better), it will have virtually zero effect on accuracy all else being equal, but if the lead is sticking to the bottom of the grooves in long, waxy streaks it can certainly make a difference in how the gun groups. Some guns, and I own a few like this, don't seem to care about lead fouling no better than I can shoot. Now, it can be true that lead fouling can be a symptom of something else entirely causing accuracy problems, but that brings me back to trying to eliminate the leading. If I do that, I've fixed maybe more than one problem. This isn't fear or loathing of cleaning lead from my guns, if they shoot great leaded then there is no need to de-foul them, it is my personal obsession created out of a handfull of formative experiences many years ago that leaded bores are not only bad, but not necessary, and a good judge of a load is one that groups on paper from first shot to last, and can be fired on a cold day as well as a warm one with similar or at least predictable results and doesn't leave lead fouling. YMMV.

This brings me to another point, also not discussed often here. That is lube fouling. Lube accumulation makes the bore an evolving runway the same way lead fouling or powder fouling can, and IME is a much larger problem than lead fouling. Often you can shoot a long, accurate, consistent string, and then let the gun cool, and it won't shoot well again until cleaned. Everyone that deals with this actively does it their own way, my solution is to use just enough of the lube the gun likes, and just enough of the powder the gun likes, and when the "pressure curve" of the burn is about right from primer spark to muzzle exit and the peak is high enough I find that the fouling from the lube/powder that is left in the barrel is very light and very consistent, and doesn't change very much from a cold barrel to a warm one if left alone and never cleaned. I was never able to accomplish this in my rifles until I started making and using Felix Lube. Session after session, with wide swings in temperature and humidity, Felix lube has eliminated most of the problems I ever had with lube fouling and accumulation, the trick is to use only as much of it as is absolutely necessary, and everything else has to be close to perfect to allow minimal lube use.

I guess you could say I'm a very steadfast Type 2 shooter, and I get there by first making sure that there is no detrimental lead fouling of my guns. The perfect gun/load combination never needs to have the barrel cleaned, only a loose, dry patch pushed through before storing at most, maybe not even that. I can get there 85% of the time, not every gun has a good enough bore to make lead-free shooting possible. But those guns usually fall into the category of "don't care" about fouling one way or the other.

Maybe I should use "IME" and "IMO" more, although I usually mean to imply it. I learn new things from other people and their guns all the time because my little world hasn't experienced those particular variables yet.

Gear

[NSP64]

OK so I have these AC50/50 all cast up, Can I heat treat them?

[RobS]

OK so I have these AC50/50 all cast up, Can I heat treat them?

You sure can. I'm not up on the temps needed to create certain BHN readings with 50/50 as I usually work with straight WW but a new thread asking about heat treating 50/50 for desired BHN hardness would be a good go at a way to find an average temperature range for what you want in bullet hardness (BHN)

[outdoorfan]

OK so I have these AC50/50 all cast up, Can I heat treat them?


Search Babore's postings. He's done the testing and posted his results.

[BABore]

OK so I have these AC50/50 all cast up, Can I heat treat them?

435 F for one hour, then quench. If your 50/50 alloy is 9-10 air cooled, then it will OHT to 20-22 bhn. The 435 F HT temp most closely duplicates my water drop temperature and results. A higher OHT temp will not result in a harder boolit, but will increase the core hardness. I prefer a softer core for a tougher boolit overall and better expansion. Wait at least 2 weeks before doing any serious work with the hardened boolits. Longer is even better if you can wait. The freshly OHT'd boolits should be sized within 24 hours. They will test out at 20-22 bhn within a day of quenching, but will never be as stable as when you wait to use them.

[44man]

Babore will tell you right.
He has sent me test boolits made from 50-50 for a lot of calibers and I have yet to see any leading in any gun.
I oven hardened them per his instructions to toughen the outsides. I have shot them to near 1700 fps but found the alloy needs a gas check if shot too fast. No leading but large groups.
Be aware you can skid rifling with AC or PB.
I have the same problem with AC WW metal, larger groups!
Leading is the very, very, very last thing I have a problem with.
Oven hardened 50-50 leaves my bores clean as a whistle.
I don't use anything but WD, WW metal in the .44, .475 or .500 JRH because they need NO expansion.
Oven hardened 50-50 with a gas check just plain works fine and I have shot some super groups with them. Maybe a flier once in a while but not far out from center. No gas check will triple group size but still no leading.
I have the hardest time talking to guys about a barrel full of lead. It can be solved and more alloys can be shot without it being a problem. Develop your own rules for your gun by changing things until things work. Never, ever give up accuracy, but combine zero leading with accuracy, one does not mean the other. The worst loads ever made might not lead the bore so they are useless.

[cwskirmisher]

"Lead Everywhere". What does that mean, exactly? Is there streaking in the lands/grooves the length of the barrel? Or, are there chunks & pieces of lead in the bore? Big difference...

IMHO, leading is caused primarily by undersized boolits, an alloy incorrect for the pressure, or driving it too fast for the hardness. In the first case, gas cutting will cause lead to be deposited in the barrel and poor accuracy. In the second case, the bullet may not obturate if too hard. In the third case it is being driven too fast for the barrel twist and is stripping the rifling - and the same result as in the first case except the lead will be in chunks/pieces/gravel, not smeared. If the bullet is soft, MV is kept under 1200-1400fps, and sized .002 over grooves, then leading should be minimal and accuracy acceptable.

If you recently changed from WDWW to ACWW and everything else did not change, then look at what size the boolit came out of the water bucket vs the pad on your bench - chances are it came out smaller, or if not, try sizing it .001 less than you are currently (meaning the finished lubed boolit is .001 larger than your WDWW loaded rounds)... other than that, trying slowing it down.

[BABore]

And do not overlook barrel constrictions. It is fairly common to have bbl constrictions where it is threaded into the receiver. On long guns, also look at rollmarked areas, dovetails, etc. It's best to slug the bbl from muzzle to breech. Then do a second slug just into the muzzle, then back out the way it came. This can even be done on revolvers, but takes some explaining. If the muzzle only slug is the bigger of the two, you have some issues to resolve.

A hard alloy has some spring to it. Easily verified when you run a hard versus soft boolit through a sizing die. A hard boolit will overcome some bore constrictions with springback. A soft boolit, with the right powder and pressure curve, will also bump up after it gets sized down by a constriction. But, sometimes you use a soft boolit in a constricted bbl, and you don't have the proper conditions. It then gets sized down by the constriction and doesn't get bumped back up. Gas seal is lost and leading results. Then the shooter tells himself "My gun only likes hard boolits" and he lives life in blissfull ignorance.

[geargnasher]

....and that blissful ignorance turns to confused anguish when the next gun the shooter works up a cast boolit load for leads with his hard boolits because his boolits are undersized.and he didn't bother to slug the bore.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

I use 50/50 WW/lead alloy in magnum .357 and .44 loads at 1400+ fps without any leading. I also only use it with AC'd GC'd bullets. I have shot 50+ rounds of such with minimal fouling that cleans out easily with my normal cleaning regimen. I've found the GC'd soft alloy cast bullets to shoot every bit as well as WQ'd or "hard cast" PB'd bullets. Most often the GC'd softer cast shoot more accurately, especially when compared to heavily bevel based cast bullets.

In rifles for hunting loads that is my alloy preference these days. I push such AC'd GC'd cast bullets to 2000 - 2200+ fps. I do find that there is some light leading that detracts from accuracy after 5-7 rounds which is why I always recommend cleaning every 5 - 7 rounds. For such excellent expanding hunting bullets, especially when correctly HP'd, such often cleaning is not a bother to me.

I use WWs + 2% tin for most of my PB magnum pistol bullets and they do fine upwards of 1400 fps. That alloy also does fine for most rifle bullets that are GC'd upwards of 2000 fps. I also use Javelina lube (having thoroughly tested numerous others) or Lars similar lube.

Larry Gibson

[Bass Ackward]

In rifles for hunting loads that is my alloy preference these days. I push such AC'd GC'd cast bullets to 2000 - 2200+ fps. I do find that there is some light leading that detracts from accuracy after 5-7 rounds which is why I always recommend cleaning every 5 - 7 rounds. Larry Gibson


Thanks Larry. This is exactly my point. I usually heat up a handgun and don't care about what's goin on. If targets present themselves, you can't get nothin if you don't fling lead. Got two turkeys like this Saturday. But rifles were always different as I get anal about rifle accuracy as some do handguns.

In my Whelen, I get roughly 1 1/2" for the first 5 shots from a clean bore counting the flier. Second 5 measures in the steenths. Third group goes out to an inch. Fourth comes back to 1 1/2" and degrades from there. So I stop and clean at 20.

Well, I got some experts to give me a hand (kids) to shoot up a bunch of stuff I had loaded. These experts just bang away for about 105+ rounds and they keep the targets. Somewhere around 80 rounds accuracy came back.

They crossed the unknown that I never would have and danged if the gun isn't sub MOA now. So I am just leaving it. If it opens again, the move should be subtle and I will use slow lead to try and bring it back. Powder charges are trending higher for accuracy now than from clean too.

Never done this with big rifle, (22LR yes) especially higher velocity stuff. So it pays from time to time to see what's on the other side.

[kelbro]

As a chronic tester, I did a batch of 50/50 for my new (to me) 358156 mould. Sized, lubed and GC'd 20 boolits. OHT'd another 20 at 435 for one hour then sized, lubed and GC'd them. Will shoot them in my 6" 586 the weekend after Thanksgiving to see how they perform.

I am thinking that even though the AC may shoot fine in the pistol, I would probably need the higher BHN for the Marlin 1894C. I will probably try the OHT'd boolits in the Marlin that same weekend.

[kelbro]

Update... Shot the AC 50/50s today. 6" S&W 586 with nice throats. Sized to .358, lubed with 45/45/10 LLA/JPW. Shot 20 rounds up to 14.0 gr of 2400. No, zero, leading! 14.0 was too much as the extraction started to get a little sticky but it was the most accurate. Will back off to 13.8 and try again but now I feel confident that softer alloys will work just fine in this pistol.

Going to wait a couple of weeks per BABore's suggestion to try the OHTs in the Marlin.