308 or 30-06

[caseyboy]

Hi All,
I am trying to make a decision and would like your opinion. I would like to buy a new bolt gun in 30 cal just for cast. Which do you believe would be the better choice of the two? Primarily it will be for offhand silhouette practice and occasional hunting (deer, black bear). If you had to choose, which would it be and why?

caseyboy

[RobS]

Welcome to the forum!!!

I would go with the 30-06 as the neck is longer which I think makes it easier to use a wider variety of cast bullets; I really don't like having the GC below the case neck. The 06 will also let you use the heavier bullets a bit easier as well and with the extra case capacity the powder to push the heavies too.

The 308 is a good one too, but I just like the 30-06 better.........personal.

[shooterchris]

I prefer the 308. It doesn't use as much powder, and packs plenty of punch for hunting. I shoot 180 gr bullets in my Savage mod 12 and I am very satisfied. I am also a fan of the short action. It is less affected by torque. I also shoot off of a bench all the time, for your purposes either rifle will work. You will probably have both calibers before all is said and done. Welcome!

[lwknight]

You will get a firestorm of opinions on that one.
Where I used to hunt , 300 yards was considered a good shot and be prepared to go 400. So I used a 30-06 because it had a little edge over the .308 with jacketed bullets.
With cast boolits the velocity will be limited the same for both by whatever factors apply so the 30-06 has no real edge.

The .308 is inherently easier to get more accurate loads than the 30-06. Probably because of the slightly shorter powder column. If I did not already have a 30-06 and was going to shoot only cast boolits , I would choose .308. The differences are so slight that it would be silly to buy either if you own the other just for the differences and no other reasons.

True gun collectors can find more plausible excuses to buy both.

[turbo1889]

My choice in such a situation would be to put a tight twist 308 chambered barrel on a longer length 30-06 action and then re-cut the throat on the chamber to 30-06 specs. Such a gun will allow you to use COAL that exceed normal length for the 308 since the box mag. and action are designed to handle the longer 30-06 cartridge. This in turn combined with a tight twist rate will allow the use long bearing length heavy cast boolits. We are talking 180 grain bare minimum and 220 grains or more would be ideal.

[x101airborne]

Buy both, shoot em, fall in love with one, sell me the other.

[Nobade]

I'm with Turbo on this one. The SAAMI 30-06 throat allows a lot more leeway than the 308 throat. Since I shoot a lot of paper patched boolits, the 30-06 gets the nod because of its long gentle tapered throat. But if you want to limit your 308 shooting to something like the RCBS 165 SIL, with its bore riding nose and short body, the 308 shoots really good and uses less powder to do it.

[Hurricane]

Since both 308 and 30-06 are good candidates for your next rifle, I would look at what is available in both. I would buy the one that gives you the best value for the money you have to spend. Look for one in very good condition and has the twist you want in the barrel. I would also check the used rack, many of the best bargins are used guns and they may come with a scope or sling that you might want to have.

[woody1]

A wise man once said something to the effect, "A 30-06 is never wrong." I subscribe to that. Regards, Woody

[old turtle]

I agree with woody1. Ok! so I am old and set in my ways. I have 5 30-06's one of which is a Springfield 03 with Lyman 48 sights, a two groove 03A3 barrel and a cherry target stock. Only cast boolits go through this little beauty. I know others have some good points however.

[white eagle]

I wouldn't buy either
get yourself a 358 win or 35 whelen
bigger boolit

[Shiloh]

.30-06

I don't have a .308. I have witnessed exceptional accuracy from cast with both.

SHiloh

[Doc Highwall]

I have both and the military proved back in the 60's that the 308Win. has an edge on accuracy over the 30/06. It has been mentioned that the 308win. can be had in short actions that makes them stiffer and that you will use less powder. My choice would be the 308Win for target and plinking then hunting. My second choice would be the 358Win because you will be able to use 38spl-357mag bullets for small game and plinking and 200grain plus for big game hunting. I like a bigger hole for hunting.

[waksupi]

I would go with the .308. You would find that the .30-06 is overbore for cast bullets. You can achieve the same velocities with the .308 in a smaller case.

[beagle]

The .30/06 hands down. Better case, great case and tool availability, outrageous selection of moulds and loads and probably more data around for it than any other cartridge except maybe the .38 Special.

Available in almost and type action you could think of.

Besides, it shoots good./beagle

[shooterchris]

caseyboy,
You had no idea the can of worms that you opened. I think that this debate is as old as the chamberings themselves. I tend to agree with x101airborne! Whichever way you go, you will have a great rifle to get into cast rifle billets with. Find the best for the $ and don't look back.

[Larry Gibson]

caseyboy

..... I would like to buy a new bolt gun in 30 cal just for cast........Which do you believe would be the better choice of the two(.308W or 30-06)? Primarily it will be for offhand silhouette practice and occasional hunting (deer, black bear)...... If you had to choose, which would it be and why?

I would suggest either will do a fine job. I would also suggest building your rifle a suitable action That allows cartridge AOL of 3"+ for the .308W and a standard '06 length for the '06. This can be realatively inexpensive as most often just a rebarreling is necessary. This allows the bullets to be seated out so the GC isn't below the case neck. A .308W rifle that has the 3" mag length can easily be throughted for this. As mentioned most '06s chamber throats do not need it as the case neck is long enough. As to barrel twist I do not recommend the "tight twist". You want to minimally stabilize the bullet for best accuracy, especially at higher velocities, with cast bullets. I also suggest a 26" barrel to maximise a slow accelleration with slow burning powders in either cartridge.

I suggest a 12" twist as the fastest. This will stabilize 220 gr bullets with hunting accuracy upwards of 2300 fps with either cartridge, perhaps 2400 fps in the '06. My opinion, based on extensive testing, is that the best twist for either cartridge is a 14" twist. This allows excellent stability and accuracy with cast bullets upwards of 180 gr (I have not tested anything heavier) to velociites of 2500+ fps. A 311041 cast of suitable alloy at 2500 fps will certainly do the job on any deer or black bear out to 300 yards.

Many cast bullets will also shoot sub moa out of either with a 14" twist if the velocity is slowed down to 2000 to 2200 fps.

Below is a target shot with 160 gr 311466 out of my 27 1/2" barreled Palma rifle in .308W with a 14" twist. Velocity is just over 2600 fps. As you can see the accuracy is consistent at 100 and 200 yards with the group opening in a linear fashion as range increases. The pasters ar 1". Those targets were fired without cleaning between groups and there was 40 shots fired, that is consistent accuracy. That is also definately 300 yard deer or black bear medicine. You will not be able to do that with a 10" twist barrel in either cartridge with cast bullets unless youu go to PPing.

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

Larry, I see some of your load data in the picture, what is the 80/20 and what lube did you use. I have a Palma rifle and I have the same mould and it would give me a good starting place with out reinventing the wheel.

[oldhickory]

Of the 2 choices I would go with the .30/06. If I were building a dedicated cast boolit rifle, I would choose any of the following; .338 Federal, .338/06, .358 Winchester, .35 Whelen. Choices-choices!..And no, I haven't made up my mind yet.

[atr]

having had both I would go with the .308
less powder for almost the same performance as an 06 when using J's
the 06 does let you shoot 220 gr J's whereas the .308 maxes out at 200 gr J
but if you are only hunting deer and black bear the .308 is plenty powerful
I have found that the .308 is very accurate with cast boolits and since the velocity is limited there is no advantage to an 06

[caseyboy]

Thanks guys, I see it is not an easy question to answer. So many factors to consider. I suppose one facor that shines through is that the 30-06 case has a longer neck and a longer leade so maybe a better choice for a stock rifle to ensure the GC stays within the neck (not withstanding the comments from Larry re altering the 308 leade). How important is this? Is the only real risk is that the GC may fall off or be pushed off as it re-enters the neck if seated below the neck? My only experience so far is shooting low velocity "boolits" out of 303 Lee Enfields and a Win94 32 Special. Even took a blacktail with the Win94 and a 183gr unchecked boolit.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I see some of your load data in the picture, what is the 80/20 and what lube did you use. I have a Palma rifle and I have the same mould and it would give me a good starting place with out reinventing the wheel.

The 80/20 alloy is 80% lino type and 20% lead. That 20% of lead makes the linotype maleeable instead of brittle and handles the psi and accelleration. It obviously shoots well and I'm hoping it will hold reasonably together for use on deer and such. I haven't tried it yet but know it does well on rock chucks and coyotes.

I used Javelina. I also use a lot of Lars 2700+ which works just as good. I've ran extensive tests on other lubes and keep comming back to Javelina or the 2700+ because they continue to give the best results in all cartridges from 200 fps upwards of 2600+ fps.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks guys, I see it is not an easy question to answer. So many factors to consider. I suppose one facor that shines through is that the 30-06 case has a longer neck and a longer leade so maybe a better choice for a stock rifle to ensure the GC stays within the neck (not withstanding the comments from Larry re altering the 308 leade). How important is this? Is the only real risk is that the GC may fall off or be pushed off as it re-enters the neck if seated below the neck? My only experience so far is shooting low velocity "boolits" out of 303 Lee Enfields and a Win94 32 Special. Even took a blacktail with the Win94 and a 183gr unchecked boolit.

caseboy

If you are shooting a hard cast bullet at "normal" cast ullet velocities then it doesn't seem to matter, especially with a dacron filler which prevents powder contamination from the lube. However, if you are pushing the envelope for a hunting load with a softer alloy for expansion the riviting of the base of the bullet and gas cutting of the base is a real possibility/probability. Either can have a detrimental effect of accuracy.

There are/were some 30-06s made with 12" twist. Suggest you look for one of those if your set on the '06.

Larry Gibson

[rintinglen]

6 of the one; half a dozen of the other. For a pure cast gun, I'd choose the .308. I'd open the throat to 30-06 specs and go with a 1-12 inch twist.
For anything else, I'd go with the 30-06.
The old 06 has an edge in peak velocity with j balls, these days either can be bought just about anywhere you find ammo. Match quality brass is readily available for each. The 308 is more efficient, and perhaps a smidge more inherently accurate. The 06 does better with heavier bullets, and used 06's abound, far more of them are around than used 308's. The best boolit groups I have ever personally witnessed were shot from 06's, but some of the folks who visit here have had wonderful results using it's shorter sibling.
My own experience with the 308 is limited to a Savage M99, and was nothing to write home about. I was youger then and knew less then.
my converted Springfield 06 shoots 311-644 Lymans very well. I once managed a 5 shot 100 yard group the was just a smidge over an inch, but the average runs more like twice that. These days, I shoot cowboy silhouette mostly, and 30=30 is more my speed:>)

[XWrench3]

Boy, talk about your 6 of one, half dozen of the other! both of these are amongst the top 5 (in my opinion) in terms of popularity. both have the advantage of being used by the military, so there is literally TONS of inexpensive used brass around. i guess i look at it this way. the 308 in factory form runs higher pressures trying to get to 30-06 performance levels. with cast boolits, i do not see high pressure as your freind. think i would go with a 30-06. larger case volume will = less peak pressure. the longer neck, will alos help when running gas checks. plus it will just plain live longer. i shoot a 300 win mag, and the only thing i dislike about the cartridge is the short neck.

[Landric]

I've been thinking about a bolt gun that is good for boolits myself. In my case I'm going with the .30-06. My reasoning is simple, I already load .30-06 for my Garand, and I don't see any reason to go with the .308 in a bolt gun since it would require the purchase of more handloading equipment.

[Tazman1602]

Caseyboy --

I was in that same dillema a few years back (QUITE a few years). I researched, I poured over books.

The only good solution I found was to buy BOTH................I love my '06's and I love my 308's, they're both good calibers.

Art

[NSP64]

I have a friend that bought a 30-06 (he said he always wanted one, I was trying to talk him into a 308), I went with a 308. Both rifles shoot fine. He shoots his with j words. I have only shot cast. He has trouble finding brass , I pick up brass everytime we go to the range. Last time out he told me he should have bought a 308. Lol
I bought a Savage edge, it has a long action and detachable mag( they use the long action and mag on all the edge series) so I can load the boolits with the gc still in the neck, and it will fit in the mag.

[Elkins45]

I vote for 308: shorter case makes reduced loads have greater density, plus the availability of surplus brass of high quality and reasonable cost. You can buy a bag of milsurp 7.62 for $80 from Widener's and have a huge selection of ammo just waiting for you whenever you get a chance to shoot. Surplus 06 brass is getting harder and harder to find.

Plus, the short action is a little lighter and more convenient. For cast you won't likely ever get to use the greater capacity of the 06.

Having said all that, if I saw two identical rifles and the 06 version was significantly less expensive or had a sweeter trigger, or came with a great scope, etc. then the 06 would be the one I picked. I think the difference in rifles is greater than the differences in cartridges in this particular case.

[gnoahhh]

I would go with the .30/06, not because it's any better than the .308 (or any worse), all things being equal. That choice is based entirely on the fact that I've been a .30/06 man all of my life, purely subjective and not based on any scientific evidence of superiority. Nostalgia is a factor for me too. Whimsical reasoning like that has driven my choice of calibers for over 40 years now, and I suspect the same can be said about a lot of other folks. When you get right down to it, with the performance characteristics of both the .308 and .30/06 being close to the same, that's as good a reason as any.

Since you implied the end use to be informal target shooting/testing and possibly occasional hunting, I would look into a good bolt gun in .30/30 instead. Something like an old Winchester M54 or Remington 788. They're out there, and tend to be scary accurate with cast. Plus, a .30/30 will arguably drive a heavy .30 cast hunting bullet as fast as it needs to go for deer/black bear hunting (not to mention almost as fast as it can go with a soft alloy for max expansion, with good accuracy and low leading). I have felt for a long time that the .30/30 is about as close as one can get to an ideal .30 caliber factory chambering strictly for shooting cast.

[luvtn]

I was unaware the Rem 788 came in 30/30. I have one in .308, I also know it came in .243. I looked long and hard to find one in .308. I've never seen or heard of a 788 in 30/30 til now. Of course 788's are out of production now. I am looking forwrd to reloading for the .308 and some cast also.
luvtn

[HangFireW8]

I was unaware the Rem 788 came in 30/30. I have one in .308, I also know it came in .243. I looked long and hard to find one in .308. I've never seen or heard of a 788 in 30/30 til now. Of course 788's are out of production now. I am looking forwrd to reloading for the .308 and some cast also.
luvtn

Remington 788 30'30's and the even rarer 44 Magnum are the Holy Grails of 788 collecting.

I once had a .308Win Rem 788, it was accurate but I sold it to help pay for a Kimber 84M Montana, and I don't regret that.

-HF

[shooterchris]

caseyboy,
Have you bought a rifle yet? :?:

[caseyboy]

No, haven't bought a rifle yet. Still reading the various pros and con that are being brought up here. I am not in any great panic as I have a couple of Lee-Enfields in 303B to play with as well as a Win94 in 32Special. My high power silhouette rifle is a Rem700 in 7-08 but that is for Js.

[Upstate Matt]

Remington 788 30'30's and the even rarer 44 Magnum are the Holy Grails of 788 collecting.

I once had a .308Win Rem 788, it was accurate but I sold it to help pay for a Kimber 84M Montana, and I don't regret that.

-HF

What about the left handed 6mm!

[9.3X62AL]

I don't think there is a significant PRACTICAL difference between the 308 and 30-06 as hunting rifles or cast boolit target guns. Both calibers in well-made bolt rifles can shoot a lot better than I can. Over the years, I've owned several rifles of both calibers. I currently own only two 30-06 bolters, and no 308s.

The 30-06 or 308 would be the absolute LAST rifle caliber I would part with. Both are too useful and accurate to be without at least one of them on board.

[geargnasher]

You already have a perfectly good .32 Special, why not boost it up to it's full potential (2100 fps or so depending on weight) and use it? Those old leverguns are barrels of fun to shoot, easy to load for, take a variety of boolits from light to heavy, and can be loaded to it's limits much more easily than heavier calibers. Also, along the lines of what Larry mentioned, the twist rate of the .32 Special is more cast-friendly.

Gear