Boolits for a Gahendra

[shoggoth80]

Hey all.
Recently joined the forum. I hope I am posting in the right area. This is part boolit question, part reloading, part advice, and experience seeking.

I picked up a Nepalese Gahendra rifle a while ago. No it isn't finished yet:mrgreen: BUT it is getting closer each day. I am working on wood repair right now. The metal is more or less cleaned up, with only a few areas to be brushed over a second time. Been working on scrubbing that bore as clean as I can get it too (as I keep pulling more crud out).

I got around to getting some brass, and some powder (still need dies, at which time my press is getting upgraded too). I reload a for .45, so right now all I have is my hand press (which is a great little contraption). Butm I figured since components don't get any cheaper, I figured I would snag some (needed the brass to check headspace anyway).

I slugged the bore today, with a pure lead .50cal ball. I rolled it through my calipers, and came out with a max diameter of something between .458, and .459. Now, there was some variance here and there, some .456, and some .457. What I understand of this method is that you gauge off the largest reading the calipers give, due to the rifling style.

Now, I know that there are .458, and .459 bullets available. Seems the closest I can get is a 500gr from Buffalo to closely match military loadings (480gr was original I believe). However, I have been told by a different forum member that it's a good idea to keep the charge to 75gr or less of 1F BP. I tend to load on the cautious side, so I am thinking something around 65-70gr BP. Might even work with less for starting. Goex recommends a charge of 100gr 1F. No way I am going that high. Original charge for military ammo was 85gr, plus or minus I think 1.5gr.

Is it plausible to use .458 diameter boolits for this particular spec? It should be soft enough to swage down where needed, but should also obdurate in the bore well. Just looking for advice from those who have done it, or have more extensive experience than myself. I am new to the BP world. I *will* learn enough to make this happen. :mrgreen:

As for molds... are there any that are recommended? I have yet to dive into the world of bullet casting... but it is something I could see myself getting into. I understand that it is cheaper in the long run to spend the money on a mold, and recoup the cost over time in terms of eventually breaking even on the equipment investment. Any particular style of bullet shoot especially well out of the Martini pattern rifles?

Sorry to be so long winded.

[JIMinPHX]

1F? Cannon powder??? In a .458"???

Something there sounds a little odd to me.

I'm not the black powder expert though.

You might want to post your question in the black powder section of the board.

[shoggoth80]

1F is actually a recommended powder from Goex, and others use it as well. 2F has been used, but from some of the guys who shoot them often, 1F is recommended. the 577/450 case is rather large, so the larger grain musket powder (supposedly) takes up more case space. I've talked to as many people as I can, and researched, and then some. Some reports vary, of course, but this 1F comprises the bulk of the recommendations that I have found. I know generally that one should take *any* load recipe with a grain of salt if you find it on the web... but the forums that I got a lot of information from is one that I have been a member of for some years, and it's a pretty tight group of people, with lots of experience and knowledge.

[runfiverun]

look for the 577/450 in the search function i am pretty sure buck shot has one and done a nice write up not too long ago.
the 459 diameter should be easy enough as thats what the 45-70 takes.

[shoggoth80]

Yeah, I found out that the .45-70 is .458-459 depending on bullet selection. This should make my life much easier, at least once I get the wood all fixed up.

I guess the main heart of the post was "If my bore slugs between .458, and .459, would I be able to get away with using a .458 with a measure of accuracy?" It's just that there are areas where it slugs less, and I am worried about running too fat a round if I go all the way to the .459.

I'll search to see if I can find Buck Shot's post. I know a fair clip about what I need to do, I just like to verify it and run it by folks who know more than I do. I'll have to make a decision about whether to patch or not. I know that undersized bullets often get patched to size... if I run proper diameter... I am guessing: powder, wadding, filler/wax+cardboard cookies, bullet with lube?

This wasn't meant to be a post about reloading... more a post about proper bullet choice. Lol. I tried to provide as much information as I could about my particular circumstances, and findings. It's one thing to admit that you are new to the BP game, but another thing to act like a total n00b :mrgreen:

[The Double D]

If you bore slugged .458 to 459 then use either size. Do not expect accuracy from a Gahendra barrel. If you get accuracy consider yourself lucky.

There are loads for .577/.450 Martini's and there are loads for the Gahendra. Because of the difference in bore diameter they are not the same. Make sure any load you use for your Gahendra uses the smaller 45/70 size bullet

Bullets don't obturate in the bore, they obturate in the throat. You may have noticed tight and loose pots in the bore when you slugged the bore. The bullet isn't going to jump up and own in size as it goes down the bore. The initial punch of the powder gases will strike the bullet and obdurate it to throat size. Once the pressure overcomes inertia and starts the bullet moving all the effects is in motion.

Throat are usually tighter than bores in the Gahendra.

Use Fg not FFG in the Gahendra barrel, Fg generates lower pressure in equivalent loads than FFg. Also Fg is equal in grain size to the original LoC load using RFG2. It's the lower pressure that makes the Fg better. There is not a significant difference in volume between Fg and FFg.

You do not need to reduce your load, there is nothing to be gained.

Your load should be 85 grains Fg, 3 grains of Kapok/dacron/cotton or wool filler, card wad that goes to bottom of neck, lube wad, two card wads and grease groove bullet.

The 100 grain recommendation sounds like a recommendation to fill the case to the bottom of the neck. It won't hurt a Martini and probably won't hurt your Gahendra either...but your shoulder won't like it.

Under size bullets get patched sometimes to bring them up to size. Common practice is to paper patch small 45/70 bullets up to the .468 diameter needed for the Martini Henry.

Just use as is the 45/70 bullets in you Gahendra; doesn't matter with your rifle .457 or .458 either one.

Any 480 to 500 grain 45/70 bullet mould will be fine for shooting the Gahendra. Don't expect much accuracy from the Gahnedra, if you do get accuracy, consider yourself lucky.

For the Martini Henry get the 480-.468 mould from Cast Bullet Engineering. If you get a MK IV Martini Henry, get the 480-.470 from CBE.

You will find far better information on the Martini Henry on the internet than you will from the "credible " sources...especially in the U.S.

You are awful brave shooting the .577/.450. You say you are new to reloading, the .577/.450 is an advanced, experienced loaders challenge.

[runfiverun]

that sounds like excellent advice.
especially the load recommendation with the cards and filler.
i'd think you would want a substantial filler to support those cards, and be sure that the filler definately touches [is under a little compression] the powder and base of the bottom card.

[The Double D]

You weigh out 3 grains of Kapok or Dacron and push it down in the powder chamber with a pencil and you will need a card wad in the neck just keep it from coming back out. You will have some compression effect on the filler, but little to none on the powder.

3 grains is a substantial amount.

[shoggoth80]

"You say you are new to reloading, the .577/.450 is an advanced, experienced loaders challenge. "
-I said I was new to BP loading. Not reloading in general. All my 1911 sees us reloaded stuff.
I double checked that Goex load... it's 90grains. My bad. Wasn't going to load that high anyway.

the Gahendras, at least some of them, seem to have band-forged/wrought barrels. I was told by a gentleman who has restored, and shot many of these rifles to keep the grains around 75 and use only single F powder (which is what I bought), as this design is not as strong as a mono-steel barrel. I can see some banding in mine... mine is an earlier model. It's a pretty old way to make a barrel, probably one of the oldest (early cannons, hand cannons, etc. were wrought iron...so says the history channel).

Thank you for the mold recommendations (I am also thinking of a Mk.IV when I get tax return next year), they could well come in handy. Accuracy is a relative term....we'll see how it shoots. Some guys have had good luck with the Gahendras... some not as good. The Francottes are a different story all together... a lot of those are apparently really rough.

I checked my primer striking and firing pin protrusion today... all seems well there. Checked headspace, and from the method I used, it's good to go. As long as the source of that information was good, then I am good.

Epoxied in some more repair plugs. It will take a few weeks to get the stock into proper (ie: shootable trim).

Are there any case fillers that work better than others? I have heard of Dacron, but also heard of people using corn meal, cream of wheat etc. as a filler. Thoughts?

[The Double D]

Reloading for a 45 ACP is a whole world different than loading to the picky beast .577/450.

I don't know who told you to load 70 grains-Norm? Some think it safer to load down in the mandrel wound barrels. It's irrelevant, pressure is pressure, if the barrel is faulty it will fail.

Do not use any of the granulated solids as fillers. They can and will slug up and can raise pressures.

For a lot more on Martini's and the related items try http://www.martinihenry.com/links.htm

[shoggoth80]

Yeah, Norm recommended keeping it 75gr or less. Though this is not the only person who has mentioned it. Just the only person that I can remember the name of.

I understand that I have a bit of a learning curve with loading this caliber, and powder medium. I acknowledge this for what it is. The brass I have on hand is some 577/450 Jamison from Buffalo Arms. They chamber in my rifle, though it's a snug fit.

I've nosed around the M-H.com site a bit, though not as thoroughly as I would like.

So no go on corn meal as a filler then? I'll have to see what I can find locally that is made as a case filler. If I cannot find any, I'll order some online. I take it the 3gr measurement for Dacron is by weight and not volume?

Double D... you post a lot on the British Militaria forums right? I browse that place from time to time. I'd sign up there too, but don't really care for the video adverts in every thread. So you're saying the best possible load for this rifle is one that as closely matches the powder charge (85gr F powder) and bullet (480gr) of the military load as possible, correct? There is no incentive to down-charge the powder measure? I want to get the best possible information that I can, before trying anything, rather than try something, and have iffy info to start with you know? Is there a significant pressure difference from 75 grains and 85grains in BP? That's like 2 test load increments (heard start low, and work up 5gr at a time).

Any good books on this subject, while we are at it? First reloading book I ever grabbed was "ABCs of Reloading," and it turned out an ok primer. I then moved on to grabbing a few manuals... but none of them are BP loads... all modern smokeless... pretty much no obsolete calibers.

[Buckshot]

.............The British were still using forge welded mandral formed barrels at Enfield, for sometime beyond 1859. After turning, boring and rifling they were proofed. Thier level of workmanship, understanding of what they were doing, along with their final proofing generally produced an excellent useable product. The problem with the Gehendras is that who knows the true what and how of their manufacture. Were they even proofed? I'm asking as I have no idea.

How I aquired my MkIV Martini-Enfield is a kind of long (but interesting) story. I paid $150 for it and then maybe a month or so later was able to aquire a brand new barrel made in 1892, complete with sights for $125 :-) And the barrel thing is part of the same story. My first 20 Bertram 577-450 cases cost me $108! Not much less then the rifle. Dies from RCBS were going to be $350, but I found out 4D had them for $154, so I went that route.

Little did I know but the MkIV wanted a .472" boolit, and part of the mentioned story was that there was a full UNOPENED case of Kynoch cordite loaded 577-450 rifle ammo, and a partial case of the same but carbine ammo. Before I was aware of that ammo along with the brass from RCBS I also bought from them some 425gr .458" cast slugs. At the time I had no 45 cal rifle but I had been casting for other for sometime, and have to say that those slugs had to have been the the worst example of cast lead boolits I'd ever seen. They still hold that distinction too.

However I HAD to shoot the Martini (still didn't know it wanted a .472" slug) so I looked high and low for all the info I could find for it. Lets say that my first experience was entertaining, but not very accurate as the undersized slugs whizzed and wailed a tune as they (most likely) tumbled wildly downrange [smilie=1: I read and re-read all the info I had, but the big help arrived in the form of that Kynoch ammo. I was given 25 rounds to fire but I had to promise to return the empty brass.

I immediately disected a case and discovered the 480gr cup based, paper patched slug. The paper was a faint purple color BTW8-) and was obviously lubed. Probably straight beeswax come to find out later. Unwrapping the slug was a time consuming endeavor but worth it. The patched slug mic'd .471"/.472", and the slug under it mic'd .464". At the range it was great fun shooting those other rounds. There was a large number of "Click - sizzle - BANG!" deals. At the fist one of those I felt the striker slam into the primer .............. but nothing happened. In what must have been a second and a half I had enough time to wonder what was up, and begin to raise my head up to look at the action when it went bang!

After that I was a seasoned vet so those were no longer a surprise. I was shooting at 50 yards and IIRC those 24 rounds produced pretty consistent 2" groups (5 shots). Most all the brass ended up with split casenecks too. Later I had the opportunity to shoot a quantity of the carbine loads and they were even more accurate, if anything. Possibly better storage as I didn't have any click-bangs with them.

I don't know about the Gehendra and what folks who have them have experienced, but my favorite load in my MkIV is the Lee 405gr (solid) 'as cast' with 2 wraps of 20# paper for a .472" OD over 38.0grs of IMR3031. It gives right at 1250 fps.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

That's what these 60 cases are loaded with. When our club had their 200 meter silhuette shoots one of the rifles I used was the MkIV with this load. A hit on the ram easily knock'em over:drinks:

................Buckshot

[The Double D]

Yeah, Norm recommended keeping it 75gr or less. Though this is not the only person who has mentioned it. Just the only person that I can remember the name of.

Norm is one of the good guys. I really like him. I think he is retired. To bad he doesn't live in North Central Montana instead of Florida, I think we would spend a lot of time on the range together. Norm, if you are reading this pack up and move to Montana!

If you just want to impress the guys at the range and all you need is smoke and fire, use the 75 grains. The logic that it is easier on the gun is faulty.


I understand that I have a bit of a learning curve with loading this caliber, and powder medium. I acknowledge this for what it is. The brass I have on hand is some 577/450 Jamison from Buffalo Arms. They chamber in my rifle, though it's a snug fit.


There is such a wide variation in .577/450 chambers that you will almost have to have brass dedicated to the rifle. The Lee dies will size down brass to fit 99% of all Martini chambers. That's the good side, the bad side Lee dies excessively sizes the brass and you will need to anneal almost every time you shoot.

As part of the learning curve, once you have your press and dies you can learn to make brass from CBC 24 gauge shot gun brass. That will bring down cost substantially.


I've nosed around the M-H.com site a bit, though not as thoroughly as I would like.

MH.com is a good reference site. I created and edit the link list. Jason Atkins is the owner of that site and is one heck of a nice guy.


So no go on corn meal as a filler then? I'll have to see what I can find locally that is made as a case filler. If I cannot find any, I'll order some online. I take it the 3gr measurement for Dacron is by weight and not volume?

Go to a fabric store and buy Dacron, but ask for kapok. There are a lot of myths and wives tales about Dacron. There is grounds for the myths, but those who repeat the myths are not very knowledgeable.

It is very important that you understand the difference between using wads and using filler. Wads are place holder, used to hold things like powder in place. Wads can leave airspace. We don't want airspace. Fillers are just that, things that fill up space and don't leave airspace.

As to the granular solids... Cream of Wheat-CoW is a fairly inert granular solid. When you put it over powder in the Martini case it becomes a volume of material .577 in diameter. When the powder ignites it pushes that .577 column of material forward and through the .468 diameter neck under pressure. The material is extruded through the neck and will stretch brass. That is why CoW is such a good fire forming material. But, it raises pressure and fatigues brass.

The fiber materials compress and go through the neck a lot easier. I am partial to kapok because I have a large quantity of it and it seems to break up more when fired. Kapok also is vegetable matter and biodegradable….the Eco-exclusionist will find it more acceptable than the synthetics.

I have also used cotton balls. There are two type of cotton balls; synthetic and real cotton. Hold a match under a cotton ball and see if it melts. Real cotton will burn not melt. Others have said the synthetic cotton balls will leave melted residue in your bore. I have never shoot the synthetic cotton and have no experience so I can’t say for sure. I do know on a warm dry day cotton balls fired as filler will burn and start grass fires in Montana and Virginia.


Double D... you post a lot on the British Militaria forums right? I browse that place from time to time. I'd sign up there too, but don't really care for the video adverts in every thread.

Yes I am active on BM and Gunboards. The trick to doing away with the video adverts on BM is to be logged in. If you are logged in you will not see the Advert's.

BM is probably one of the best Martini boards on the Internet. We have just separated out the Gahendra into a separate forum for hinged block hammer guns. BM caters more to collectors and collector shooters. If it was just collecting I wouldn't be there.

I have Moderated Gunboards Martini forum for a long time now, 8 or 9 years I suppose. It is a fairly good one subject board and stays pretty active.

There area couple of others you will find linked on the Martini Resource list, but they are not as active as BM or Gunboards.

There are some other boards discussing Martini’s but the scope of knowledge is limited.


So you're saying the best possible load for this rifle is one that as closely matches the powder charge (85gr F powder) and bullet (480gr) of the military load as possible, correct? There is no incentive to down-charge the powder measure? I want to get the best possible information that I can, before trying anything, rather than try something, and have iffy info to start with you know? Is there a significant pressure difference from 75 grains and 85grains in BP? That's like 2 test load increments (heard start low, and work up 5gr at a time).

First time out to get a feel for the gun load up 20 rounds using the LoC load- 85 grains Fg. Shoot the gun and get the feel for it. After you have fired the first 20 then start load development. I subscribe to the Creighton Audette Incremental Load development Method or the Ladder method of load development. Instead writing it all up here, read about it in the PDF. www.desertsharpshooters.com/manuals/incredload.pdf . I would start with 60 grains


Any good books on this subject, while we are at it? First reloading book I ever grabbed was "ABCs of Reloading," and it turned out an ok primer. I then moved on to grabbing a few manuals... but none of them are BP loads... all modern smokeless... pretty much no obsolete calibers.

A good book is Malcolm Cobb's The Martini Henry notebook, available from IMA. I did some research for Malcolm-see page 36 for what he used. Since the book was published Malcolm has seen the light and now understands the Martini Henry is not .458 but much larger.

Some where was the question about volume vs weighing for reloading. It doesn’t matter what you are loading Black powder or smokeless powder every thing is measured by weight and usually dispensed by volume.

If you use a black powder volume measure you should check it’s calibration before using. Set the measure for the volume you want. Fill the measure with powder and then put the powder on the scale and see what it weighs. Adjust the measure until it throws the weight of powder your want. Then use the volume measure to load.

Does that sound familiar? That’s exactly what we do with a smokeless powder measures. We adjust the powder measure to throw a specific weight of powder. But the powder is actually dispensed by volume.

If I am making critical test loads, I will adjust the measure to throw slightly less than what I need, dump the powder onto the scale and trickle up to the desired weight.

[The Double D]

I see Buckshot has posted also...he is another fellow whose writing you can take to the bank...he knows what he is talking about!

[shoggoth80]

So, with using cotton balls... can they be used as a wad, and as a filler? Googled Kapok, and it seems like a good filler too. Will have to look for it.

The 24ga Magtech stuff is a trick I have known about for a while. Eventually, I am going to do some cartridge converting. $1 per pop (plus or minus some change) beats near $4. But that is a few months off still. Gotta get dies, and upgrade my press. I just figured that since I had no components, having some to start off with wouldn't hurt. The die/press prices/availability seem stable, but I have seen component availability and costs waver a lot. At the same time, it is nice to have proper brass.

I snagged that PDF, and will be reading it over for a bit.

[The Double D]

You will find sources for kapok on the Link list at Martini Henry.com

Cotton balls are used like kapok and Dacron as fillers

[shoggoth80]

Cool. So worst case scenarios, I can pack cotton in there. Good to know what the option are.

[Buckshot]

............As I'd mentioned in my post I had bought 577-450 dies from 4D, but they wanted to size the caseneck down to HOLD a .458" slug so they sized to about IIRC .454" ID. I didn't know it was a problem until glomming onto some of that Kynoch ammo. I contacted Dave @4D as I'd ordered the dies from him. He said he thought some Martini's did use the .458" but he wasn't a 577-450 scholar (and neither was I).

He said if I'd ship him the dies back along with 3 fired cases and a couple slugs I planned on using he'd alter them to fit my rifle for $40 + shipping. I thought that was a heckuva deal, and it is! However I cannot stand to wait and started to look around for something that I might be able to 'make' work:-) Checking cartridge case dimensions I found that a size die for the Win .458 Mag could be altered to work as a neck only, sizer.

After doing some measureing I chucked it up in the lathe and removed some of the base of the die, then tried a 577-450 case in it. A couple more small cuts and it was perfect as it only sized down the top 1/2" of the caseneck to a .469"/.470" ID. Of course your Gehendra will be different but for only about $16 I had a neck only sizer. I have 80 Bertam 577-450 cases and they all have over 20 firings apiece. I haven't lost one yet (I anneal every 4th firing) and haven't had to size the body of the case yet either.

..............Buckshot

[bonza]

Another tip I've read about regarding neck sizing .577/.450 is to use a .480 Ruger sizing die & just run enough of the neck into it so it will hold the bullet. Of course this is for the larger diameter Martini-Henry rifles & not the Gahendra. I just ordered a die from Lee & look forward to trying it out.

[loiner1965]

i had this problem on my gahendra which dd measured my slug at .457/8 as i measured it at .455.
i use lee 405gn hb molds and size them to .457 and get good results.
my lee dies cannot size the neck small enough to seat the bullets unless i paper patch so my friend converted a 45/70 die to suit.
basically he opened the mouth of the die to accept the 577/450 case as its rather large lol