45acp help leading/swaging

[beerbeer95648]

I am new to this casting thing, but have been reloading for various calibers for about 8 years. I have recently started casting using a lee 452-230-TC 6 cavity mold and am happy with the resulting bullets. I am lubing with Recluse's formula. I am loading on a Dillion 650 with lee dies. I am casting with lead ignots from muddycreek sam which he thought were around 10 brinell which seems right. I am loading to 2.220 under 4.3gr of Titegroup. Last session I had alot of leading which lead me to pull a few bullets. I am getting diameters of .4490-.4505. I am sizing to .452. I was running an EGW undersize die in the first station, so I recently put in the standard sizer. I am belling more than I like in order to not swage the bullet too much, but then have setback issues. After seating I typically have 4.515, and after the LEE FCD I have .451. Again, I get setback due to the bell required to not shave or swage. My gun wont chamber bullets dropped out of the mold at .453. Oh, and my barrel slugs right at .451. Any ideas how to get good case tention, but not lead due to a swaged bullet, all while not being able to use a Lyman M die due to using the Dillion?

Sorry for the long post
and thank you for the time

[MtGun44]

Lose the Lee FCD, if it is doing some of your sizing. If you can get the 'delivered to the
barrel' bullet up to .451 you may be OK, but you really want to be .001 over groove diam, if you
have a barrel that wants to lead. Many barrels will be happy with groove diameter boolits, but
a lot will need a bit more. Often, .001 or even .002 over groove diameter is necessary for no
leading and good accuracy.

Sounds like you will have .4515 without the FCD, so lose it and see how it goes.
I think you have a pretty good chance at that diameter. Lee FCDs are good for some guys
but we often hear that they are sizing down enough to be a problem.

By the way - how are you measuring? If you are using a caliper, you may easily be off
.001 either way on all of your measurements, they are rated +/-.001". If you are going to
work this kind of stuff you really do need to buy a micrometer that is rated to .0001".
Guessing between the marks on a caliper is not reliable at all. If you think it is you are
fooling yourself. What you think you have may not be what you actually have. Certainly
an error of .001 is significant when fitting boolits, and fit is the big dog in this fight to stop
leading.

Bill

[beerbeer95648]

FCD is on its ways out. Actually, I am trying to drive out the sizing ring since I like the incremental crimp adjustment. And you are exactly right, I am using calipers and will soon get a micrometer. But what is really getting to me is that in order to keep even a ghost of my original bullet diameter, .4505-.451(given using a set of calipers), I have to get the expander plug pretty deep, which is causing a very slack tension on the bullet. If I practice a more conservative belling, I get very undersize bullets. At this point I dont really even know what I am asking. I guess I would ask is how do people expand the mouth enough with a relatively soft bullet to avoid shaving and swaging and still keep tension while using a progressive press (ie. no "M" die). Again, years ago when I had trouble with plated bullets I went to an undersize die, and until now havent stopped even with commercial cast bullets.

[noylj]

Why aren't you just loading like everyone else, using standard dies and technique? You are trying tricks that only work for people who have specific problems and need a cure.

What is the diameter of the expander plug? Please tell me you aren't just using a case belling tool. Your expander should be expanding the case ID to 0.450" (your sizing die has to over size the case since cases have different thickness. It is the expander's job to get the case OD to be the correct dimension. You may find that you need a custom expander made up to keep the case ID 0.001" under bullet diameter. I think this is one area were the action shooters miss out as they only need acceptable accuracy and have to have reliable reloads.
The expanded case ID (not the bell at the mouth, but the case ID beyond the case mouth) should be no smaller than 0.002" under bullet diameter and 0.001" is better. Hornady makes great expander dies and Lee's Powder-Through Expanders make great expander dies even if you don't use them for charging the case. Swaging the bullet during seating is a GREAT way to destroy accuracy. A good expander die is your best friend.

Your bullets may not be hard enough. Can you easily scratch the surface with your thumb nail? Go to Missouri Bullet Company. They have a section on optimization of bullet hardness. Read it and determine what you really need and then determine the alloy mix that will produce what you need.

Where is the leading? This will let you diagnose the cause(s) of leading:
If barrel leading appears near the chamber, chances are that bullet diameter or hardness are the cause. A diameter too small or an alloy too hard will allow high pressure gas to leak past the bullet, which erodes the bullet and leaves leading near the chamber. This can be dangerous if the lead builds up where the rifling starts as it is similar to making the chamber shorter. If this is where you are seeing leading, get a Chore Boy copper scrubbing pad, wrap a little around a .45 brass brush, and scrub out all that lead. Even better, I really like the Outers Foul-Out III I have.
If the leading first appears on the leading edge of the rifling (if you imagine the bullet being pushed through the barrel, you will note that one edge of the rifling does most of the work of imparting a spin to the bullet—this is the edge you see when you look through the barrel from the breech end), the bullet might be too soft or the velocity too high.
If the leading appears in the second half of the barrel, the bullet is running out of lube. You should see a star shaped pattern of lube accumulate on the muzzle. This is an indication that there is an excess of lube.
I have never seen a .45 that would not accept a 0.453" lead bullet with ease. A lot of us old timers used to use almost nothing but 0.454" as-cast bullets.

[HeavyMetal]

I think you went the wrong direction when you bought the undersized sizing die.

Sounds to me like your expander plug in the flow through Dillon powder measure is a little large in diameter. It may also be a little long as well.

Take the plug out of the powder measure die and check it with your caliper It's very likely that it is .4515 or .452 diameter. You will still need flare to seat lead boolits without shaving but once seated you only have the crimp holding the boolit in place.

If your plug is as expected reduce diameter with some sand paper. I would think .450 should be sufficent.

Be aware that the plug may have a bit of taper as well so check along the length of the plug for that as well.

In the end you may have to shorten the length and reduce the diameter of the expander plug to get what you want.

Personally I also prefer a somewhat harder alloy with auto loading rounds and think 10BHN is just a touch soft If you have access to clip on WW blend it 50-50 with the 10 BHN alooy and see what you get. I prefer 14 to 16 for 45 ACP loads

[462]

A conventional taper crimp die should iron out the bell and still not swage down the boolit.

[chris in va]

I find with my Lee 452-230-1R mold it's not necessary to size or FCD my loads. I did get some leading with my Sig 220, but zero leading with my new Glock 21. Go figure.

[beerbeer95648]

Yep, the expander plug is both slightly oversized, and long. I will try chucking it up and bring it down closer to .450. And, just to answers the earlier questions I was getting leading the whole length of the barrel. This is something I have never experienced with other lead projectiles using the same die setup. I mainly shoot Missouri Bullet CO. 200gr SWC. I had been using the undersize die mostly because I had been loading for a host of family members using range brass and wanted to be sure they were reliable and had no setback issues like I had with the plated bullets I had on hand (while accuracy may have suffered), and i found the die worked just fine for harder cast bullets. And I can load .453-454 bullets just fine as long as they are not the 452-230-TC bullets. They have to be seated to around 2.100 to chamber, but then I run into feeding issues. That bullet feeds best for me around 2.220.

[thegreatdane]

I'll buy your Lee FCD. i love mine and would like to setup a dedicated bulge buster.

If you decide to keep it, ensure you're not over crimping. Adjust the upper until the case mouth cals .473 or .474. This was my solution to 9mm leading. I was over-crimping. I also went to a slower powder and changed my lube recipe.

Best of luck. Let me know if you wanna sell that FCD.

[geargnasher]

I use the Lee PTE die for all my .45 ACP stuff, and find that most of the time the stock expander plug is sufficient to expand the case neck the correct diameter and depth for the 230-grain bevel-based Lee boolits. My expander mic's at .4508" and is perfect for .452" boolits in the 11-14 bhn range. The expanded portion of the case ID is opened from about .448" sized diameter to .450" after springback, giving me .002" tension. Due to the cases being .448" below the expanded part (which is just barely below the boolit base) I have no setback issues at all. Boolit tension is sufficient to retain the boolits under recoil in the magazine, and even if I did have a weak case in the mix it would only go another .010" or so before hitting the "ledge" left by the expander.

I do have a custom expander that is a little fatter and a little deeper than factory, but that is for loading 250-grain PB boolits without swaging the bases down upon seating.

The thing I have found, through a variety of pistol calibers is that brass springs back .002-3" after expanding, so often I use custom expanders that are the same size as the boolit to get my .001-2" case tension.

One more thing, I've done som pretty thorough testing of the large isotope containers used in nuclear radiology, and boolits cast from them and air-cooled (.452" range) take about two weeks to reach full hardness. For the first week they go from 7.5 bhn to 9.5, then another week to get to 10-11. If you're loading them a few days after casting they will be too soft to hold up to the rigors of an otherwise correct loading procedure.

Gear

[fredj338]

I find with my Lee 452-230-1R mold it's not necessary to size or FCD my loads. I did get some leading with my Sig 220, but zero leading with my new Glock 21. Go figure.

Sig bbls have a rep for leading, I think they are cut rifling. I agree, lose the LFCD, *** IMO, solves a problem that doesn't really exist w/ proper die setup & technique. You might also want to reconsider TG for lead bullets, it can be an add'l. cause of leading as it burns very, very hot on ignition.
I load almost nothing but lead bullets on a 550B & 650 & Dillon dies. There is no need for undersized siing die or elaborate crimping measures. The Dillon TC crimp die works fine & I have never had issues w/ setback. Maybe start over, straight Dillon die setup & go with that. FWIW, I use 4-5 diff bullet styles all sized to 0.452" w/ alloy from 25-1 for LHP to ww or 50/50 for everything else. I have used maybe 8diff powders, all work fine, but WST is my fav for accuracy & low smoke.

[RobS]

One more thing, I've done som pretty thorough testing of the large isotope containers used in nuclear radiology, and boolits cast from them and air-cooled (.452" range) take about two weeks to reach full hardness. For the first week they go from 7.5 bhn to 9.5, then another week to get to 10-11. If you're loading them a few days after casting they will be too soft to hold up to the rigors of an otherwise correct loading procedure.

Gear

More than likely this is could very well be a large part of the problem. Straight WW will take a week or a bit longer to reach a hardness where the base of the boolit doesn't swag down when seating. A person can speed the aging process up by setting the boolits in an oven for an hour at 200 degrees. It can be done even quicker with 2 exposures of 200 degrees.

48 hour age hardened:
1. cast boolits
2. wait three or so hours
3. put in oven at 200 degrees for an hour
4. leave them in the oven until they reach room temp

24 hour age hardened:
1. cast boolits
2. wait three or so hours
3. put in oven at 200 degrees for an hour
4. leave them in the oven for 8 or so hours (can be more)
5. repeat steps 1-4
6. when at room temp (a few hours later) they should be at or near full hardness

I use a small cheap convection oven to do my boolit roasting; and the boolit roasting business is good around here :).

I even take this one step further and temper (make softer) my WW bullets as they come out at 13 ish BHN after aging at the casting temp I work at. Adding another step with putting them back in for an hour at 325 degrees and leaving them in the oven to cool I can bring them back down to 10.5 bhn which I utilize for loading HP's in the 45 auto and even use this process for 454 casull mid house loads.

[fredj338]

I doubt it's the alloy. I can shoot swaged lead bullets w/ little to no leading w/ the 45acp pressures @ 800-850fps. Many guys complain about leading in their Sigs. I suspect it's bbl manuf. Many complain about leading using TG, I suspect the heat does something to certain lubes. The LFCD can also be an issue.

[geargnasher]

Fred, that may be the case but you missed the important part: He said "I am getting diameters of .4490-.4505. " after pulling. That's either case not expanded enough or boolits too soft. He also said the mould dropped them at .453" and he sized them .452".

Gear

[beerbeer95648]

Just a side note, I drove out the sizing ring in my FCD today and am happier with what I am getting with pulled bullets. My Dillion charge-through expander plug is about .448, and I am now getting pulled bullets around .4515 . I was noticing when I was getting the very small diameters, .449-.451, it was mostly the lower drive band. Again, this using an undersize die. I had replaced the U-die with the original sizing die that came with the 4 die set and am starting the think that the issues I had with set-back years ago (which caused me to get the U-die) were due to an out of spec die. I can run a case through the sizing die, not bell the case, and am able to easily seat either a .451 jacketed bullet or .452 cast bullet with no shaving. Then to top it off, even without belling the case, I can easily push the bullet deeper in the case. Anyway, I am soaking in all the info I can, and appreciate everyones input. I am thinking I will try what RobS mentioned to see if a slightly harder bullet will help, and if so think about getting my hands on some WW alloy to blend 60/40 with the isotope lead I have now. Oh, and the bullets were cast around 2 weeks ago.

[geargnasher]

That is a problem! A sizing die that won't size the case enough to hold a .452 boolit is a sure recipe for a Kaboom in an automatic if you don't catch it before it chambers.

Sounds like your expander is a typical, jacketed-bullet expander, which is about .002" too small. If you press will take standard dies, get a Lee carbide sizer die and have a machinist build you a new expander plug for your existing expander die that will go all the way to the bottom of where you seat your boolit plus at least .025" and make it .450" at the very least, .451" migh be better.

Gear

[beerbeer95648]

Yep, big problem. Hence the U-die, I have been hypersensitive to the possiblity of setback ever since the first time I loaded a cartridge, shoved it against the bench, and watched it disappear. Especially since I load for my family. I promptly ordered the U-die, and until today never thought to check if the original die was defective.

Good Idea about the expander, I think Ill call Dillion today and see if they have any thoughts. I originally thought the expander was to large, but luckily checked again before I removed any material

[RobS]

I am thinking I will try what RobS mentioned to see if a slightly harder bullet will help, and if so think about getting my hands on some WW alloy to blend 60/40 with the isotope lead I have now. Oh, and the bullets were cast around 2 weeks ago.

beerbeer95648:

Please don't misunderstand me in that this oven technique at 200 degrees will not make a bullet harder than what it would have been by just letting it age harden by itself some two, three, or four weeks etc (whatever time frame it is to reach full hardenss), it mearly speeds the process up. However if a person would heat treat bullets at higher temp in the oven and then water drop them in a pail of water you could end up with harder bullets (similar to water quenching directly from the mold). geargnasher as worked with Sam's isotope lead and can probably tell you what the general hardness would be if you happened to water drop directly from the mold.

By the way.............good work on taking out the carbide ring in Lee FCD as it can creat problems as you have found out.

[geargnasher]

10-11 bhn is plenty hard for what you're doing, BeerBeer. Like RobS said, either speed the process up with a low-temp heat-treat (I've never done this but it sounds interesting) or just wait for them to harden up on their own. Water quenched Iso lead is 16-18 bhn after two weeks, but I cast at a fairly cool temp with it (650* or so). Shooting boolits that hard with the load you're using presents a new set of challenges, just stick with correcting the expander and sizer dies and using aged, air-cooled boolits for now.

Gear