Shooting cast at 2700+ fps

[-06]

I have always used factory boolits in my 06's and 308s and want to start using casts boolits. Will they withstand the speed and not lead my barrels excessively? Should I stick with factory jacketed for full speed loads?

[Will]

I've seen claims of high speed cast shooting but have never been able to get above 2100fps without a keyhole. Then I never heat treat or even water drop and don't use pure lino. This might get you up close to 2500 but I doubt it.

[geargnasher]

"Full speed" means different things in different situations, as everything has its practical limits.

I'll share my thoughts based upon my results, which are not typical. First, study a good cast boolit reloading manual to get an idea of what published data yields. Velocities will be considerably less than those of equal-weight jacketed bullets due to the inherent limitations of the much softer and more fragile cast. The main issue is not whether we can push jacketed velocities with cast (this can certainly be done), but whether we can do so with accuracy acceptable to the shooter.

I'll say that achieving higher velocity than "normal" with cast boolits isn't easy, takes much patience, knowledge, care, and experimentation with each individual gun, and often requires specialized tools and techniques normally reserved for "benchrest" shooters (neck thickness measuring and turning, proper neck anneal, neck-only sizers, correct boolit tension in the neck, a perfect boolit fit in the gun, proper bore maintenance, etc etc.).

I personally have gone to nearly 2800 fps with a ten-twist sporter '06 using heavy Lyman Loverin-style heat-treated boolits at 22 bhn , really good lube, and a lot of trial and error. Problem is, accuracy fell off dramatically after 2400. Accuracy beteen 2200-2400 was 1.5 MOA at 100 yards (often 1 moa, but consistenly through long strings on different days I could only claim 1.5) in my 22-inch sporter. 24-2700 or so it fell off to 2 MOA, above that things get crazy as the boolits I were using had reached their limits.

Realistically, there is a lot more to shooting cast than just screaming velocity. You can make a consistent, accurate, and deadly hunting load that will nearly equal jacketed out beyond 200 yards but it takes a lot of work.

Gear

[felix]

Gear, if he is serious about maintaining his objective, you need to introduce him to paper jackets. He might want to trade his time for money saved from purchasing condoms. ... felix

[-06]

Thanks for the input--looks as if I am going to have to stick with factory for my hunting/longer distance shots. Just do not have the time to experiment and refine my boolits. I have a right good supply of them so might as well use them up. Again, thanks.
ETA: Felix, what is this...."He might want to trade his time for money saved from purchasing condoms".........?????????

[geargnasher]

Felix, that's probably the best advice anyone will give, but it seems that every time it is mentioned people say "oh, no, that's way too hard, I could never do that!". Truth is, it was much harder for me to do it the conventional way than with paper, too many things have to be just perfect without the aid of some form of jacket. Thing is, from my perspective, once I got everything just right it was far easier to reload the conventional way and live with some velocity limitations. 2400 fps ain't bad with a 180-grain boolit.

Gear

[HORNET]

Felix was referring to those copper-condom-covered that some people feel they need to use for everything. Do you really need 2700+ fps? The shuetzen boys of the ASSRA run benchrest matches and get frequent groups around 1 MOA (or less) at velocities around 1500 fps. The BPCR guys run about the same velocities and go out to 1000 yards. We have several members that have competed in military short-range (300 yard) matches successfully using cast at speeds just a little higher. Cast at 2200 or a little less will handle an awful lot of shooting. Or you can check the paper-patching forums and go full throttle, but it will take some work.

[-06]

Amazing accuracy at those speeds. I use 150 grain in my deer rifles for the shock factor. They normally "explode" the lungs plus the other organ damage. Not into competition anymore but do love to put them where I aim.

[waksupi]

I really don't see the need for full speed. I've used cast for deer, antelope, elk, bear, and buffalo, all at under 2200fps. I have a point blank range of 225 yards with my .358 Win. Since I don't like to shoot at game over 200 yards, this covers all my needs.
If you have a proper fitting boolit, and a decent lube, leading is a non-issue. I have well over 500 rounds through my main rifle since I last cleaned it, and it has no leading. I wouldn't have cleaned it at that point, had I not been hunting in the rain and snow.

[jhalcott]

A hard as nails , linotype bullet CAN achieve some remarkable speeds. These will punch thru most game like a FMJ military round leaving NO sign of expansion and a small wound channel. I have tried quite a few "tricks" to get RELIABLE hi speed loads for the 7Mauser and 30-06. A change in the weather can ruin all your hard work. I've found as others here , that 22 to 2400 fps is MORE than enough to take care of my hunting needs. Besides, I LIKE the HUNTING part, the shooting is just an after thought!

[-06]

Waksup--your byline says: ..."these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid".... What is he talking about?

[9.3X62AL]

One route to increased downrange THUMP at a given velocity is to increase boolit weight in a given caliber, within the limits imposed by twist rate.

Another route is to use Bruce B's Softpoint Casting Method. I purchased a Lee 309-200 mould expressly for the purpose of combining these two above-listed criteria into what I hope will be an effective hunting package. Other demands on my time and attention have diverted me lately, but I do have test-loads with homogenous-alloy (92/6/2) boolits loaded and ready. These top out at an estimated 1800 FPS, and will be limited to a 200 yard envelope. 95% of my local deer hunting fits that limit.

FWIW, my most successful cast boolit rifle loads run between 1600-1800 FPS. Such velocities aren't challenging or esoteric, but they work for me--and I'm all about the fun. The hair-splitting and obsessive detail-orientation......not so much.

[waksupi]

Waksup--your byline says: ..."these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid".... What is he talking about?

06, he is referring to a gas checked bullet, and I concur. From my personal experience, cast bullets have out performed jacketed bullets for consistant performance.

Another consideration, Veral Smith recommends that you not have an impact speed of over 2200 fps, or you will get massive destruction on the animal. From what I have seen of other people's results and autopsy's over the years, I agree with his observations.

[-06]

Am going to have to "rethunk" some things and do some studying. Thanks for all the info. Have a bud who rebuilds printing presses-bet he can get me some linotype.

[Suo Gan]

Am going to have to "rethunk" some things and do some studying. Thanks for all the info. Have a bud who rebuilds printing presses-bet he can get me some linotype.

This is the PhD section of handloading, no question about it. When you cast boolits you learn things about your rifle that never even mattered to you when you shot jacketed. The good caster has a harmonious balance between his rifle and what he knows it wants, boolits and loads that fit its particular dimensions. A 30-06 is not a 30-06. When you understand what your rifle is telling you, that is when the real magic happens. There is some compromise when shooting cast boolits, this is weighted more towards the start of your venture than a ways into the woods. To me, being self reliant, saving money, understanding my rifles, trajectory, and ballistics much better, far outweighs any perceived advantage of shooting jacketed bullets. When you don't hot rod your rifles all the time they last longer and are easier on your ears and shoulder. They will take game readily...the boys on madison ave don't want you to know that though.

[waksupi]

Am going to have to "rethunk" some things and do some studying. Thanks for all the info. Have a bud who rebuilds printing presses-bet he can get me some linotype.

Actually, I doubt you need linotype. Air cooled, or quenched wheel weights will do everything you need to do. You CAN get too hard, real easy. Lino can shatter in hunting conditions. Hard can also translate to leading, if fit isn't perfect.
The only boolits I have added any extra tin to, was 6mm and under to fill the bands a bit easier.
The best thing to do when starting with cast boolits, is to forget, or ignore anything you think you know about reloading. We don't reload, we actually manufacture ammunition.

[HORNET]

If you get an opportunity to get some linotype at a reasonable price, get it. If nothing else, it will make great trading stock. It's also one of the best materials to use for more complicated alloying and some stick with straight lino for casting .22's (and similar perversions).

[Wayne Smith]

We have two sections on paper patching. One for paper patching smokeless, one for paper patching black powder rounds. If you are interested read around. As has been mentioned, you are here for a PhD in advanced reloading. This may include casting, swaging, or patching cast boolits. All to accomplish an esoteric, probably unuseable, and perhaps unreachable goal. But then, we're all crazy!

[-06]

LOL, like that term "manufacturing ammunition". I got into reloading to insure my ammo supply in the times to come. With ample components one should be able to "manufacture" what is needed for all uses.

[MT Gianni]

If you like the idea of shooting 3-5 rds a year to sight in and 2-3 to fill your tags, casting is probably not for you. If the idea of going to the range several times a month and shooting 100 rds is your kind of fun welcome to the asylum.

[-06]

My #1 deer rifle gets a couple to sight in and one per deer. After season it get cleaned and stored till next year. The 700,M1A, and others get used and played with. I no longer burn hundreds daily and am content to just put a few into the black and go home.

[BruceB]

It's long been my belief and practice to pretend that IF I decide to hunt with a cast bullet, I am (in effect) stepping back to the closing days of the blackpowder era

If I need raw power, it's vailable by using a bigger rifle/bullet combination If I'm hunting smaller game, .30-30 trajectories suit me just fine out to 200 yards.....which just happens to be my self-imposed range limit anyway, barring unusual circumstances.

At 2000+ fps, which isn't difficult to achieve with reasonable accuracy, my .416 Rigby and its 365-grain cast bullet is perfectly capable of humane, reliable kills on anything that ambles around this continent At the same time, the load isn't really uncomfortable. 3" high at 100. 3" low at 200, and I have a very practical 200-yard big-game outfit. It groups ten rounds of the hunting load into an inch at 100 (repeatably).

The fastest I've driven the RCBS .416 bullet is 2600 fps. The accuracy was still pretty decent and no leading appeared. It was VERY miserable on the back end, though.

I'd rather hunt with a 300-grain softpointed .338, at 2000 fps, than with a 180-grain .30 hopped-up to 2700. I would also expect much better bullet integrity after impact. Our job should be to create the best possible load we can, with clean killing as the main priority. 2000 fps with a 200-yard max range suits me just fine.

[geargnasher]

Waksup--your byline says: ..."these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid".... What is he talking about?

Not to discourage you from starting down the path, but the reality is if gas checks are new to you there is a long road to be traveled before getting what you want with cast boolits from your rifles.


Am going to have to "rethunk" some things and do some studying. Thanks for all the info. Have a bud who rebuilds printing presses-bet he can get me some linotype.

If someone gave you the impression you could just get a Lee mould, saucepan, hotplate, old spoon and some liquid Alox and start turning wheel weights into perfect barn-burners just like you do with jacketed stuff they did you a disservice. I encourage you to try this if you have the interest, lots of good folks here and good books to help you along, but shooting cast boolits is more of a hobby unto itself than a means to another end.


LOL, like that term "manufacturing ammunition". I got into reloading to insure my ammo supply in the times to come. With ample components one should be able to "manufacture" what is needed for all uses. Casting your own might be for you, although making accurate cast boolit ammo is more akin to "Ammunition crafting". Like many here say it doesn't save you money, but it allows you to shoot about 5-10 times more for the same money!


My #1 deer rifle gets a couple to sight in and one per deer. After season it get cleaned and stored till next year. The 700,M1A, and others get used and played with. I no longer burn hundreds daily and am content to just put a few into the black and go home.

J-words work best for that.

Gear

[ReloaderEd]

It can be done using Linotype metal which is right at 22 brinell hardness and when the bullets come out of the mold quench them in water if you want but its not really necessary.
A gas checked bullet is a must and the barrel should not be pitted but smoot and shinny lands and grooves. The case mouths should be belled out to assure the bullet is not scrapped when seated. Put a tuff of dacron filler on top of the powder charge, seat and crimp the bullet. The bullet should just be shy of touching the lands and grooves in the barrel. I run cast 150's at 2800 fps in my Mi Garand with no leading or problems with the dacron filler. they kill a deer easily. Be Safe

[dualsport]

OK Ed. That's what I was looking for. "I did this and this and this is what happened". I am interested in your M1 load, more details? I have a very nice Garand with a smooth near new condition barrel, would like to experiment more with high velocity cbs in it or my other 30-06, a CZ 550 with a 12" twist. So far the upper end stuff that has shot well have been copies of the 'Bob S. load', still a long ways from 2800 fps. I'm not concerned with hunting with these loads, just paper or silhouettes. No particular good reason, just for the heck of it thing.

[mpmarty]

Velocity alone is not the answer. Shouldn't even be the question. I shoot 30 cal stuff on paper but when hunting I use the 45/70 and anything even near 2000 fps is out of the question. My 350 gr RD boolits drop game like magic at 1650fps out to 200 yards and a bit more. Learn to read your rifle and feed it what it likes.

[dualsport]

Hunting with cbs is a different animal than just experimenting with higher velocities for it's own sake. Getting good results, accuracy, no leading with fast stuff just adds another area to experiment in and have fun. No harm in that, right? Adding speed to the mix creates a new challenge, I like that. When I have hunted with cbs it's been the 45-70, drops them right there. I am always trying to bump up cb .22 loads, for flatter trajectory on ground squirrels with a Hornet or .223.

[Bret4207]

I was gonna kind of let this one go by, but the last 2 posts are making such good old fashioned common sense that I feel obliged to chime in. The OP is making a mistake IMO equating cast with jacketed, 2 different animals. If the idea of having your needs met by a simple lead alloy projectile at 1800, 2K or 2200 fps doens't tickle you, then cast just might not be your bag.

[Larry Gibson]

Hmmmmm....seems tyhis question of HV (2700 fps in this case) has been asked numerous times (okay, a lot of times) before. 2700 fps out of the '06 using cast bullets is relatively easy to do, just as easy to do with jacketed bullets. The problem is doing it with consistent and useable accuracy. That is easy with jacketed bullets but very, very difficult with cast bullets.

The 12" twist will be the best chance upwards of 2400 fps but beyond that consistent accuracy of 2 moa or less out through 300 + yards will be more approachable with a 14" twist barrel. Many want to discount the adverse affect of high RPM but it is very real, especially with cast bullets at HV/RPM. Those adverse affects are what must be overcome. It will take a cast bullet with certain design features, just any cast design will not cut it. The alloy must be strong yet ductile/maleable. Slow burning powders must be used, many times with appropriate fillers. You must also be somewhat anal about your casting/loading techniques. Linotype is not good alloy for a big game hunting bullet but is a very good componant to start with. I mix mine with 20 or 30% lead for a very useable yet maleable alloy at 2200 -2600+ fps.

Testing with groups at 50 yards will show little. Testing at 100 yards is prefereable with confirmation of linear expansion of the groups at 200 and/or 300 yards. Groups of 3 shots provide little information, groups of 5 shots only a little more and it is best to test with 10 shot groups and then use at least 3 ten shot groups for confimation of repeatable and consistent accuracy at 100 and longer ranges. A good chronograph is also a must to really tell if you are getting the velocities and consistencies you desire. It can also show you, if you know what to look for, when certain componants are not performing well internally and terminally (ballistically speaking).

I shoot consistent 10 shot groups of 1.4 - 1.5moa average at 2600+ fps with a .308W out to 300 yards. The details are in other threads so a search will provide lots of usefull information. If you intend to hunt with the '06 and you've a rifle with a 10" twist barrel (I've been doing that for many years) then you can expect dependable and consistent hunting accuracy up through 2200 fps using some special techniques with good FP bullets of alloys that expand reliably over 200 or so yards. Such loads are reliable killers on deer size game. If you want to hunt larger game then a larger caliber is recommended by me and others here. The larger calibers usually have 12 or 14" twist barrels or slower and allow vary good accuracy with cast up through 2400+ fps. Recoil can become abusive with the larger/heavier bullets though as mentioned by BruceB.

The road to HV and accurate cast bullet loads in a 10" twist '06 can be fraught with lots of frustration. Give it a try if you must and don't hesitate to seek advice here.

Larry Gibson

[-06]

Again, thanks for the input gents. I do not hesitate to shoot 400 yds at a deer so I think I will stay with my 168 gn BTHP loads and save my casts for lower velocities. I have plenty of WWs and pure Pb so will just keep on pouring for other things.

[waksupi]

Why are you shooting at game at 400 yards? A bit of wind, or a step by the animal, and it is missed, or wounded.

[MtGun44]

Linotype is a brittle alloy and when used for hunting, not only will not expand, but will
shatter on a heavy bone.

If you want to hunt with cast, you need a caliber that will do what you need in the speed
ranges which are relatively easily attainable. If you want to do modern high velocity, long
range hunting, cast is not appropriate, which is why jacketed bullets were invented and
developed to the high technical art that they have achieved.

If you enjoy tinkering, saving some money and maybe turning back the clock to a simpler
and slower time while shooting and hunting, you may want to take up the boolit hobby.

Pistols are pretty easy, rifles up to 1800 fps are pretty easy too. It get quickly much harder
to get accuracy above those levels, and many of the things that do deliver accuracy are not
very compatible with the desired impact on an animal. Careful casting with two different
alloys has been done and works well, but is an advanced art for the beginner.

It sounds like your needs are firmly in the jacketed or monolithic copper alloy bullet camp.

Bill

[geargnasher]

Linotype is a brittle alloy and when used for hunting, not only will not expand, but will
shatter on a heavy bone.

If you want to hunt with cast, you need a caliber that will do what you need in the speed
ranges which are relatively easily attainable. If you want to do modern high velocity, long
range hunting, cast is not appropriate, which is why jacketed bullets were invented and
developed to the high technical art that they have achieved.

If you enjoy tinkering, saving some money and maybe turning back the clock to a simpler
and slower time while shooting and hunting, you may want to take up the boolit hobby.

Pistols are pretty easy, rifles up to 1800 fps are pretty easy too. It get quickly much harder
to get accuracy above those levels, and many of the things that do deliver accuracy are not
very compatible with the desired impact on an animal.
A hearty +1 on all of that for sure.

Careful casting with two different alloys has been done and works well, but is an advanced art for the beginner. So does 2%Sn/3%Sb/96Pb with a touch of arsenic heat-treated and impacting the future dinner at at least 2k fps. That's velocity downrange, not at the muzzle, something often overlooked. I doubt the softnose stuff could survive launch when pushed to the 2400 fps MV range without slumping, although I've never tried it to see.

It sounds like your needs are firmly in the jacketed or monolithic copper alloy bullet camp. And the .300 Winchester Magnum camp, too, with 400 yard shots.

Bill

Gear.

[Suo Gan]

Hmmmmm....seems tyhis question of HV (2700 fps in this case) has been asked numerous times (okay, a lot of times) before. 2700 fps out of the '06 using cast bullets is relatively easy to do, just as easy to do with jacketed bullets. The problem is doing it with consistent and useable accuracy. That is easy with jacketed bullets but very, very difficult with cast bullets.

The 12" twist will be the best chance upwards of 2400 fps but beyond that consistent accuracy of 2 moa or less out through 300 + yards will be more approachable with a 14" twist barrel. Many want to discount the adverse affect of high RPM but it is very real, especially with cast bullets at HV/RPM. Those adverse affects are what must be overcome. It will take a cast bullet with certain design features, just any cast design will not cut it. The alloy must be strong yet ductile/maleable. Slow burning powders must be used, many times with appropriate fillers. You must also be somewhat anal about your casting/loading techniques. Linotype is not good alloy for a big game hunting bullet but is a very good componant to start with. I mix mine with 20 or 30% lead for a very useable yet maleable alloy at 2200 -2600+ fps.

Testing with groups at 50 yards will show little. Testing at 100 yards is prefereable with confirmation of linear expansion of the groups at 200 and/or 300 yards. Groups of 3 shots provide little information, groups of 5 shots only a little more and it is best to test with 10 shot groups and then use at least 3 ten shot groups for confimation of repeatable and consistent accuracy at 100 and longer ranges. A good chronograph is also a must to really tell if you are getting the velocities and consistencies you desire. It can also show you, if you know what to look for, when certain componants are not performing well internally and terminally (ballistically speaking).

I shoot consistent 10 shot groups of 1.4 - 1.5moa average at 2600+ fps with a .308W out to 300 yards. The details are in other threads so a search will provide lots of usefull information. If you intend to hunt with the '06 and you've a rifle with a 10" twist barrel (I've been doing that for many years) then you can expect dependable and consistent hunting accuracy up through 2200 fps using some special techniques with good FP bullets of alloys that expand reliably over 200 or so yards. Such loads are reliable killers on deer size game. If you want to hunt larger game then a larger caliber is recommended by me and others here. The larger calibers usually have 12 or 14" twist barrels or slower and allow vary good accuracy with cast up through 2400+ fps. Recoil can become abusive with the larger/heavier bullets though as mentioned by BruceB.

The road to HV and accurate cast bullet loads in a 10" twist '06 can be fraught with lots of frustration. Give it a try if you must and don't hesitate to seek advice here.

Larry Gibson

All that for free Larry? Way better than anything I just read in Fauxloader Journal. Nicely written.

[Bret4207]

Again, thanks for the input gents. I do not hesitate to shoot 400 yds at a deer so I think I will stay with my 168 gn BTHP loads and save my casts for lower velocities. I have plenty of WWs and pure Pb so will just keep on pouring for other things.

Target bullets not designed for game and Hail Mary shots? Sorry sir, you and I subscribe to 2 different theories on hunting.

[Lloyd Smale]

i know its not 2700 fps but ive pushed 120 grain flat nosed bullets out of molds for 32 revolvers to 2500 fps out of a 3030 i casted them out of 5050 ww/lyno lubed and sized them to 309 and put a coating of tumble lube on them to boot. I shot some 2 inch 100 yard groups out of my contender carbine. I dont remember the load and lost all my old load data in a fire. I beleive though i was using re7 to do it. I never killed anything with it as my old man layed claim to that gun not long after i was fooling with it. It sure did smack the heck out of rocks though. Some day id like to kill a deer with that load. Id bet it would put a hurt on one.

[Von Gruff]

Geargnasher wrote,
Careful casting with two different alloys has been done and works well, but is an advanced art for the beginner. So does 2%Sn/3%Sb/96Pb with a touch of arsenic heat-treated and impacting the future dinner at at least 2k fps. That's velocity downrange, not at the muzzle, something often overlooked. I doubt the softnose stuff could survive launch when pushed to the 2400 fps MV range without slumping, although I've never tried it to see.

I have , as posted elsewhere, a softnosed 160gn (7x57) boolit (65gn 50/50 ww/pb nose - lino shank) at 2415fps that has proved to be a good game killer (out to 185yds so far), so dont believe there is slump problem, at least not any that costs hunting accuracy or on-in-through animal effectiveness.

Von Gruff.

[geargnasher]

Good to know, VG. When I think of soft nosed, I think of WW boolits and Pure Pb nose, which I don't think will fare as well as yours.

Gear

[HangFireW8]

So does 2%Sn/3%Sb/96Pb with a touch of arsenic heat-treated and impacting the future dinner at at least 2k fps.

101%? That's nothing. You should see what my sports-caster approved 110% alloys can do! 8-)

-HF

[w30wcf]

This was a project I haven't had the chance to get back to yet. Last year I decided to make some Lee "Soup Can" bullets from Lino and push them to a velocity beyond what I had in the past.

Discounting the fouling shot the group was better than I expected....and from a levergun at that. :smile: I need to load up some more and try them at 100 yards. I'll have to add that to the 2011 project list ..............

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/336A113Ltarget.jpg

w30wcf

[-06]

........"Why are you shooting at game at 400 yards?"....... I normally shoot at far less but have accurately hit at 380. He went about five feet before dropping. I used to fire comp. and enjoy open field hunting. I do hunt at close distances and with my trusty old Browning-slug barrel. If you can shoot at 100 accurately then you can hit at farther distances with practice and concentration. If you cannot hit at 100 then please don't try longer shots. I raised a fawn to a fantastic pet and hate to see a deer wounded.

[waksupi]

Well, I've killed deer and antelope at well under a hundred with flintlocks and pistols. Suggest you learn to hunt, rather than just shoot. I've got 40 years of competition shooting behind me, with a lot of 1000 yard work. That is why I don't shoot at game over 200 yards.

[-06]

Waksup, sir I will have you know that I have never wounded a deer. Every one that I have ever shot died very quickly from primarily heart/lung shots. As for shooting instead of hunting--I killed my first deer nearly forty years ago and have taken some every winter since. As for shooting-I will stack my aim up with yours any day of the week. I really do not appreciate your remarks-not knowing anything about me. It is childish and irresponsible to assume things about others based on your experiences. Shoot at whatever range you wish and keep your remarks about mine to yourself please. ----IF---- you have shot comp. at 1000 yds then your experience should dictate that a 3-400 yd shot is not much more than a "chip shot". If a decent shot cannot hit an 18"X18" target at 3-400 yds then he should not be shooting.
I thought this site was above snide remarks but I guess there is the exception to every assumption. My apologies to the rest.

[waksupi]

Can't think of any animals around here with a 18X18 kill zone.

Not being snide, supporting responsible hunting.

[-06]

Sorry I lost my "cool". I started the thread with a question about firing cast at factory speeds and it has gotten a bit of thread drift. Am reminded of an old Clint Eastwood movie--he said: "A man has to know his limitations".

[dualsport]

This was a project I haven't had the chance to get back to yet. Last year I decided to make some Lee "Soup Can" bullets from Lino and push them to a velocity beyond what I had in the past.

Discounting the fouling shot the group was better than I expected....and from a levergun at that. :smile: I need to load up some more and try them at 100 yards. I'll have to add that to the 2011 project list ..............

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/336A113Ltarget.jpg

w30wcf

Nice shootin'. I like that kind of stuff, a little 'outside the box'. I'm preparing a batch of Lyman 311359s for some upper end experiments, 30-30 and 7.62x39 for a comparison. I want to see if my 7.62x39 H&R barrel is redundant. I've had a H&R 30-30 for about 25 yrs. Shoots cbs real good. I also have that soup can mold, maybe I'll throw that one in too. Looks like it worked good for you. My 94 has shown amazing accuracy with cbs and mild Bullseye loads.

[Marlin Junky]

Back to this velocity thing for a minute... your results down range are going to depend on how the system of components performs. Extracting the absolute maximum from this system requires understanding it. If you're not a dedicated lead boolit guy, forget about approaching jacketed bullet performance with your '06. If you want to use lead boolits in your '06 for practice or small game or perhaps some pest control then by all means, get involved. If you want to substitute your cast boolit ammo for your factory ammo and go hunting out west you had better plan on spending a few hours a week at the range for several months or more and this assumes you're already an experience handloader.

For example, I've had several 336's in 30WCF go through my hands but only one that will shoot heat treated 180 grain boolits consistently into 1.5MOA or less at 2400 fps (I won't provide the recipe because this particular rifle has an unusual chamber). With a properly annealed nose, these boolits perform in water soaked telephone books similar to the venerable old Nosler. I consider this one individual load, in this one particular rifle, to be the near equivalent of a .300 Savage factory load and would use it on elk under favorable conditions. Currently I am working on an old M70 in 30-06, intently trying to extract all the cast boolit usefulness out of it. After several months of collecting data, I do not ever expect to match the performance of the above mentioned 30-30 without first replacing the factory barrel with something like a Kreiger or perhaps a Shilen (i.e., barrel guts are a very important part of the system). One day I will probably shoot a 5-shot one hole group with this rifle at 100 yards but it will be at a whole lot less than 2700 fps. Why? Probably because of the chamber reamer dimensions that cut this particular '06 chamber and the 10" twist coupled with the way the rifling was cut... actually, I think Winchester was button rifling at the time this M70 was manufactured (circa '52). With all that being said, given a substantial investment in a new barrel, proper reamer, custom mold to fit and perhaps some new loading dies and a batch of Lapua cases, I bet 1MOA at 2700 fps with 170-180 grain boolits (HT'd 50/50 or thereabouts) would be a snap.

Does that help?

MJ

[Bret4207]

Can't think of any animals around here with a 18X18 kill zone.

Not being snide, supporting responsible hunting.

Ditto. Good on you Ric.

[-06]

My hat is off to you Marlin. That is some fine well tuned shooting. My eyes are far from what they used to be so I have glass on everything except an M1A and a Carbine(and an FR-8). I am zeroed at 220 yds so firing at 1 to 300 is simple math and relatively easy.
I worked for a gent once who was bragging about his deer shot(@50yds). I encouraged him to not limit his shots at such short distances and he said it was impossible to hit at the end of his pasture(where he had shot the other up close). I took my old '03 out and commenced to blowing up cow patties at about 175 yds. One has to know his equipment and be proficient with it. Without either the other suffers.
Heard an old creed many yrs ago: without my rifle I am useless, without me my rifle is useless. I will kill my enemy before he kills me. It made a good impression on a young Jarhead.

[dualsport]

This thread has gone sideways a little. High velocity cb shooting for grins is one thing, hunting is another. The 'how far is too far' question will never be answered, because the answer is different for everybody. There's guys, and gals, who can shoot past 400 yds. at game and be ethical. That's because they have made the effort to have that proficiency and can hit a paper plate all day at 500 under field conditions. I've seen it many times. But that's not my cup of tea, I like the stalk, it's the hunt for me. Getting close is the fun part, to me. I hunted for years with a recurve bow or a compound with no sights, instinctive shooting. That gave me a reliable range of 25 yds! It was great and led me to the most memorable hunts in my life. One time I stalked a buck for two days! Finally outsmarted him in an ambush that involved a lot of running and mountain climbing. I danced around the fire that night like Kevin Costner in 'Dances With Wolves'. If I had just pulled off a great technological feat of long range marksmanship I probably wouldn't have danced. That said, long range shooting is fun, just not at game for me.

[Von Gruff]

I would and do consider 250yds a max distance with my aperture sighted 7x57 with soft nose at 2415fps and prefer to be under 200 with 150 being çomfortable in the terrain I hunt. There are too many variables in the alloy - velocity - trajectory - expansion choice to reliably work outside this range (and dont bring up the old time buff shooters) This was the generally excepted working range with traditional J/bullets as well as CB, UNTILL velocity started to become the over riding criteria of effectiveness and J/bullet design had to move away from the c&c that had always worked.
I think we, as CB hunters work best within the limitations that have always shown the best results, and while some SHOOTERS may take shots 'way out there', HUNTERS will not.

Leaving hunting asside, shooting CB at HV as an intelectual or practical exercise that may bring its own rewards as far as satisfaction in acomplishing a task, but the more easily attained 2400fps will more than suffice for long range paper or steel.

Von Gruff.

[Marlin Junky]

And, like Felix said a few days ago, there's the paper jacket. With a little patience you can apply a sheet of paper to a pointed cylinder of air cooled WW metal and do 1 to 1.5 MOA at 2500 fps without breaking into a sweat. I've done it with a rifle that wouldn't shoot my particular lubed/grooved boolits accurately at over 1900 fps.

MJ

[dualsport]

VG, I agree a 7x57 and a .404 will do whatever you Need done, but what does 'need' have to do with it? If you add .22 Hornet to that list I'll leave you alone and be happy.:kidding:

[Daryl]

I got Veral Smith's book "Jacketed Peformance with Cast Bullets" and found it to be extremely helpful. What I like about it is that he is very practical and speaks from experience on the terminal result of the bullets in hunting situations.

I've read sections of this book many times and gain more insight each time and pick up on stuff I missed before.

I've been experimenting with a 22 gas checked Lyman 55 grainer. I did not chrono it, but based on the load, I estimate it to be 2800 fps +/-. I am not the best shooter, from a 2x4 rest at 100 yds in my Remington 700 heavy barrel I had a 5-shot group of under 1.5". The best 3 were 1/2". I use Veral's LBT Blue lube. This was with RL-7.

The lower velocity of 2,100 fps or so with Unique was certainly easier to maintain 1 MOA.

I also fire-lapped the new barrel before these stats were developed.

The note above about the brittle nature with hard alloys was also an issue Veral discussed. At under $30 this book was my best investment after a couple years of casting experience.

I encourage you to try it.