Monumental (for me) failure and lesson learned.

[AKsoldier]

Some of you might remember my posting some months ago from Afghanistan about getting into casting for the first time. I've been home almost a year now, and have cast at least a couple thousand boolits using 3 different Lee 2-cavity moulds. (I'm a cheap-skate.) I have only had trouble with one of them so far though, the 228 gr. .45 ACP mould.

It fires just fine as a light-load using trail boss powder in either my S&W 460, or my new Ruger Bisley Stainless convertible. Only in 45 Colt in the bisley though.

I decided to find out why this particular boolit doesn't like the caliber it was designed for tonight. So I dug out my Mitutoyo dial caliper, and three different factory 45 ACP loads, along with two different 45 ACP handloads. The differences in measurements were only a few thousandths of an inch, but the boolit itself was very nearly the same diameter as the case neck.

I think this is my problem with this particular boolit. I think because a semi-auto (like my Para-ordnance 1911) and my Ruger convertible head-space on the case neck, the similar diameter of the boolit is keeping the cartridge from seating all the way in.

I'm guessing a .451 sizing die for the same boolit might solve my problem. I can't seem to find one for decent money though.

So for now, I have over 200 useless cartridges loaded for 45 ACP. (And I was so SURE buying the Ruger convertible would help me out!) Oh, well - at least I wound up with a fine revolver! :drinks:

[Bret4207]

I'm not sure I understand your issue, but if the cases (which headspace on the MOUTH, not the neck) are too large to allow complete insertion into the chamber Lee makes a Factory Crimp Die which will reduce the diameter of a loaded round. Lee also makes their push through sizers in .451 for pretty low bucks.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

AKsoldier, I have no idea about the problems you are having (new caster myself) but it is great to see you home safe and sound. Thanks for the service.

[Gohon]

What's missing is what is the size of the bullets as dropped from the mold and what sizer are you using. Are you loading them as dropped or sizing them down? I would guess the Lee mould is dropping .454-.455. Also if the chamber of the 1911 is so tight as to prevent proper chambering of your loads, pressure could be very high and that is not good.

Take a loaded round, mic just behind the case mouth. Then chamber the round, letting the bolt really slam home. Then pull the round out and again measure just behind the case mouth. Did it swage down? Keep in mind also if you do size down to .451 for the 1911 you may find they shoot lousy in the 45 Colt with other problems such as leading.

Really do need a lot more information to help out.

[home in oz]

Glad you are home safely!

Thanks for all you have done!

Be warned, this casting boolits and reloading is terribly addicting.....

[runfiverun]

i think what you are trying to say, is that the round is trying to headspace on the boolit and not the case mouth.??
if so, and your load is a reasonable one, i'd seat the boolit a little deeper.
with swcs like the h&g 68 and the lyman 200, i seat them so the shoulder is flush with the case mouth not protuding like most show pictures of.
i even put a bit of roll crimp on them for my boy's 1911.
now if it is just a size thing [outside of case diameter]and you wanna squish them just a bit, you can set your taper crimp a little lower, and i have even used my sizing die [with the primer punch removed] to just squeeze rounds a bit before.

[Char-Gar]

What did you measure and what were the results. Without that info, you post doesn't make much sense.

[Gohon]

http://i52.tinypic.com/2w40j9i.jpg

I think this is the bullet he is talking about. About the only way I can see that it is trying to head space on the bullet is he is crimping in the upper lube groove. I could be very wrong though.

[AKsoldier]

I'm not sure I understand your issue, but if the cases (which headspace on the MOUTH, not the neck) are too large to allow complete insertion into the chamber Lee makes a Factory Crimp Die which will reduce the diameter of a loaded round. Lee also makes their push through sizers in .451 for pretty low bucks.

Thanks for the correction. The problem, at least in the case of the Ruger with the 45 ACP cylinder, is that the round seats into the chamber and rests on a step inside the cylinder on the case mouth. Because the boolit was essentially "stuffed" into the case, it is now protuding over the edge of the case, and the boolit itself is contacting the step inside the cylinder, before the case mouth can reach it.

I seem to have a problem getting those Lee push-through sizers up here. The lube that comes with them is considered a haz-mat item, so noone will ship them. There is a shooting supply shop I deal with locally who can get them, and I tried to order one in .451, but that was months ago and I haven't heard anything back from them yet. I guess I need to stop by again.

Considering the nature of the problem with the Ruger, I don't think a factory crimp die would help. I could be wrong though.

[AKsoldier]

What's missing is what is the size of the bullets as dropped from the mold and what sizer are you using. Are you loading them as dropped or sizing them down? I would guess the Lee mould is dropping .454-.455. Also if the chamber of the 1911 is so tight as to prevent proper chambering of your loads, pressure could be very high and that is not good.

Take a loaded round, mic just behind the case mouth. Then chamber the round, letting the bolt really slam home. Then pull the round out and again measure just behind the case mouth. Did it swage down? Keep in mind also if you do size down to .451 for the 1911 you may find they shoot lousy in the 45 Colt with other problems such as leading.

Really do need a lot more information to help out.

I think they are actually dropping very close to .452, if I recall. I did run them through a .452 sizer though, as I wanted to ensure uniformity. i have given up using this particular boolit with the 1911. Every time I attempt to chamber one, the slide locks up tighter than a drum just out of battery.

If I can get my hands on a .451 die, I may try them again. If that does work for the 1911, I'm not going to try using them in the others. I wanted this boolit specifically for the 1911 anyway.

[AKsoldier]

i think what you are trying to say, is that the round is trying to headspace on the boolit and not the case mouth.??
if so, and your load is a reasonable one, i'd seat the boolit a little deeper.
with swcs like the h&g 68 and the lyman 200, i seat them so the shoulder is flush with the case mouth not protuding like most show pictures of.
i even put a bit of roll crimp on them for my boy's 1911.
now if it is just a size thing [outside of case diameter]and you wanna squish them just a bit, you can set your taper crimp a little lower, and i have even used my sizing die [with the primer punch removed] to just squeeze rounds a bit before.

That's exactly right. When I originally loaded them, I seated them to match OAL to a factory loaded 230 gr. FMJ. I could seat them a bit deeper I guess, and I also tried the same thing you did - running them through the sizing die with the primer punch removed.

Chargar - case length was the same, case diameter at the mouth was about .002" larger in diameter at the mouth with my cast boolits compared with two different factory rounds. This is why I tried both a tighter crimp, and running them through the empty sizing die. They still won't chamber in the Ruger cylinder though, although the diameter did decrease.

I'm thinking seating depth is about the only way to solve the problem. These are not crimped on the lube groove. They are not crimped much at all, in fact. I would crimp them a bit for use in a revolver though.

[Dan Cash]

Lee strikes again. Save money and frustration, buy a real mould from just about anyone else. You can find moulds that let you shoot as cast but as cast for your auto may not equal success in your six gun or vice versa. Actually, except for making noise, you may want a different and heavier bullet for the .45 Colt chambering. A bullet that chambers in your .45 ACP pistol should chamber in your revolver but no guarante of accuracy.

Good luck and thank you for your service to our magnificent country.

[AZ-Stew]

+1 on what Bret said regarding the Lee boolit sizers. See: http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=%52%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47&dept2=%4C%45%41%44%20%42%55%4C%4C%45%54%20%43%41%5 3%54%49%4E%47&dept3=%53%49%5A%49%4E%47%20%44%49%45%53&dept4=%4C%45%45

Scroll through and you'll find both .452 and .451 sizers. Very reasonably priced.

I have no experience with the Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD), however. My recommendation would have been to pull the bullets, resize the cases without the decapper, re-flare the case mouths, re-charge with powder and then seat the properly sized bullets. My concern with the FCD is that if you use it to draw down the size of a case that has a lead bullet inside, when the pressure of the die is released, the brass will spring back larger than the drawn down bullet inside, giving a poor fit between the bullet and case. As I said, I don't have experience with this tool, so I'm speculating. Some of the guys here love the FCD, but I've never seen a real need for it. You can fix your loads that won't chamber by either method. My way, you'll need a bullet puller (you'll use it for all kinds of ammo, rifle and pistol) and can do the rest with the tools you already have, but you'll need an FCD for each caliber.

Regards,

Stew

[AZ-Stew]

I wrote the above during breaks in the class I'm teaching, so it took a while to get it done. In the interim, a number of posts were put up here.

If you can't get the Lee sizers due to the lube that's included, why not Call Lee and ask them if they can ship you the sizer arrangement without the lube, or with some of the stick lube they sell as an alternative?

Regards,

Stew

[Mavrick]

If the boolit that Gohon pictured is the one you're using, I think I know what's up. I use the 160gr Lee which has the same ogive. If you load to the same OAL that the books give for FMJs or similar in lead, the boolit will stick out way too far. You must seat the OAL shorter. Mine, ie, are 1.11" instead of 1.27" or thereabouts. The end of the shank of the boolit(where it starts into the ogive) is even with the end of the case.
I use a 1911-Clone(FWIW a Firestorm) full-frame, and the chamber has a minimum throat. Some guns have an extended throat and the boolit can be seated longer. You'll have to lower the powder charge slightly, then work back up. The actual velocity will be the same with less powder because of the reduced internal capacity.
It's not a problem, just part of customizing your ammo.
Also what is your alloy? Most of the time I use ACWW+2% tin, sized .452", but I HAVE used linotype, or Lyman #2(5-5-90)
At times I've loaded for Rugers, either .45Auto boolits, or .45 Colt, and I size THEM to .454".
I hope I've helped.
Have fun,
Gene

[Gohon]

http://i52.tinypic.com/wagi1k.jpg

Now that more information is emerging the picture is changing for me. I think Mavrick is correct in that it is mostly if not all just a OAL problem. If they are sized to .452 they are probable alright but first the OAL problem needs to be corrected. The above picture is the method I use to determine OAL for all loads for the 45 ACP. Just keep adjusting the OAL until it falls into one of the two center examples in the picture. I haven't found anything that works better. Forget about book OAL's. They only pertain to the gun used by the author during tests.

I surprised you haven't noticed marks on the bullet nose that would indicate what is happening.

I disagree with Dan about the Lee Moulds. I have about a dozen of them and they all produce great bullets.

[mdi]

I've read of problems with the Lee 452-228-1R bullet. The ogive is "rounder" than their other bullet, 2R, and the bullets must be seated deeper. The 1R bullets have the full diameter out farther, more blunt shape then most other round nose designs. Perhaps sizinf to .451" ans seating deeper will Help.

I have a .45 cal. Lee mold that drops bullets as large as .456" with my WW alloy, and if loaded w/o sizing they will not chamber. Sounds like your's in addition to the bullet shape are too large in dia.

[ghh3rd]

Sorry that I don't have more to add to this thread than to say thanks for your service.

[Tazman1602]

Matt --

You've gotten some great advice here, and as to the subject of "failure"? The only people who don't fail when casting bullets, are those people who don't cast any bullets.....

Back up, regroup, and have at 'er again man.

Art

[casterofboolits]

You said the boolit was protruding over the case. Did you seat and crimp at the same time shaving a ring of lead off the boolit? This would interfere with correct seating in the Ruger chamber. Or perhaps you need a bit more flare on the case mouth. Not enough or no flare will also shave lead off the boolit.

I always seat and crimp in seperate operations.

[mike in co]

ok...i did not read everyones posts.
but i did buy and then resell this mould in a six hole.
the big round nose runs into rifling in one of my guns and not in the other....so it was useless for me...
i could not load one long load that fit both guns..so out it went and i bought 230 tl design that works in both guns......


mike in co

[Daddyfixit]

Thanks for the correction. The problem, at least in the case of the Ruger with the 45 ACP cylinder, is that the round seats into the chamber and rests on a step inside the cylinder on the case mouth. Because the boolit was essentially "stuffed" into the case, it is now protuding over the edge of the case, and the boolit itself is contacting the step inside the cylinder, before the case mouth can reach it.

Am I reading correct that the boolit lead diameter is lager than the case mouth?:???:
If that's so maybe the case isn't flared correct so when the boolit is seated it "shaves" a little bit of lead? Might be more to do with the belling & seating process with that round.
Just a thought...
Glad your back SAFE!:grin:

[Tedak]

+1, on OAL too long because of boolit profile.

I had chambering issues with 452-2281R (sized to .452") in a RIA1911 that I used to have. The OAL needed to be shortened to 1.100" for the rounds to chamber reliably. The cartridges looked funny being that short, but they worked.

My S&W1911 and Glock 36 function just fine with the same boolit at a "normal" OAL of 1.250".

[Wayne Smith]

FWIW don't forget Buckshot's service. He will make you a sizing die - Lee or Lyman/RCBS - and send it to you direct. Good prices, too.