Very Unhappy With 45-45-10

[onondaga]

I measured carefully and made up some 45-45-10 bullet lube. I was happy with how easy it was to mix and it applied by tumbling without incident then dried in less than 1/2 hour. I was happy to that point. I do some serious bullet sizing. My pet load for a .500 S&W Mag. NEF SB2 Handi-Rifle uses a bullet that I customize. I use a wheel weight alloy cast Lee R.E.A.L 250 gr. tumble lube bullet that casts at .513 inches and I size them to .501 inches which gives them nice flat bearing bands for the .500 S&W. I preciously used straight Lee Liquid Alox for the tumble lube before and after sizing and the bullets went through the bullet sizing die with very little more force than any other bullets I size, but make a cute burrrrp sound as the tumble lube bearing bands pass through and are sized. Press lever force with that arrangement is maybe 25 pounds of push, not unpleasant at all.

I just left my press after an attempt to size some R.E.A.L. bullets that were lubed with 45-45-10. Press lever force is about 200 pounds to get the bullets through the sizing die. I gave up after sizing 20 bullets. This is way too hard. Now, I will have to re lube these bullets with straight Lee Liquid Alox. After they are sized I am not sure I want to use the 45-45-10 even for the second lube because of the very poor lubrication it provided for bullet sizing.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/TLsized.jpg

Before and after sizing

[Frozone]

The lube is not there to make the boolit 'slick' in the bore, it's there to prevent lead from galling off and lead sticking to the bore. Two separate functions.

I use RCBS case lube and a pad to lube for resizing.

[qajaq59]

I do some serious bullet sizing. Boy, I'll say. Wouldn't it be easier to use a mold that is closer in shape to what you wanted to end up with? .012 is a lot to size.

[onondaga]

"The lube is not there to make the boolit 'slick' in the bore, it's there to prevent lead from galling off and lead sticking to the bore. Two separate functions. " That is not fresh new knowledge to me. I had believed it would be reasonable to use the 45-45-10 as a bullet sizing lube and it failed. Others on this forum have used it for bullet sizing lube and praised it. It didn't work for my application and I wanted to warn others.

[Rocky Raab]

I think your use is analogous to using an umbrella as a parachute. The mix is perfectly fine for its intended use, but clearly not for your level of abuse. I haven't the depth of experience that some here do, but even so I cannot imagine that such gross resizing can possibly produce a quality bullet, no matter what lube is used.

[9.3X62AL]

How well do those uber-sized REAL 50s shoot in the firearm?

What occurs to me here......at .500" or so, the sidewall of the H&I die (if Lyman/RCBS system) isn't very thick. I wonder if continued sizing of this magnitude will stress the die and lead to cracking failure. Just thinking out loud here.

[44man]

The R.E.A.L. boolit has larger bands to the front for engraving the rifling of a muzzle loader and is cast from pure lead. It is not a good choice for a .500 S&W.
Rifling Engraved At Loading!

[onondaga]

Yes, it is a nasty looking bullet that is grossly sized. However, it really shoots from my rifle very accurately at 1885 fps verified with 35.2 grains WC820 and BPI Original Ballistic Filler to rim. This is not a conventional load but consistently groups less than 1 inch at 50 yards and is more accurate than any of over 20 different loads I have worked up for the rifle using 5 different bullets. Factory ammo for this rifle groups over 2 inches at 50 yards and is repulsively expensive. I load these up for less than 20 cents a round and am very happy with them.

[onondaga]

You would think that, I did too. Then I tried it because on another forum a member uses 45 cal. 250 gr. pistol bullets in Muzzle Loading sabots for his .500 Handi-rifle and gets good accuracy. I tried those too, but the R.E.A.L performs much better for me. Go figure! It really works great for me. I seat this bullet so that the crimp centers on the middle band. It is a nice flat shooting accurate deer load that I have taken two bucks with. One buck was an uphill short shot that lifted the buck off his feet. This load delivers over 1000 ft. pounds of energy out at 110 yards so for my deer hunting is is better than perfect for me. When I bought this rifle I was determined to get it to shoot less than 1 inch at 50 yards. I did, but it took a lot of work.

[Trey45]

It is not a good choice for a .500 S&W.



This is not a conventional load but consistently groups less than 1 inch at 50 yards and is more accurate than any of over 20 different loads I have worked up for the rifle using 5 different bullets.


Seems it is a good choice for his rifle though.

Onondaga, have you considered using case lube for your sizing?

[onondaga]

The load shoots less than 1 inch at 50 yards for my grandson and myself. I use the Lee Lube & Size Kit to size these bullets and it is a very thick walled sizing die, I'm betting it will hold up.

[BABore]

I think your use is analogous to using an umbrella as a parachute. The mix is perfectly fine for its intended use, but clearly not for your level of abuse. I haven't the depth of experience that some here do, but even so I cannot imagine that such gross resizing can possibly produce a quality bullet, no matter what lube is used.

Rocky,

You can size down quite a bit a still have a perfectly fine boolit. I just all depends on how you go about it. I prefer nose-first, push through dies for all of my sizing chores. Not only do you end up with a straighter boolit, but the leverage of a RockChucker is far beyond a typical lubrisizer press. I lube in a slightly oversized die in a Saeco press. The boolits picture below are my 460-325 GC. They drop at 0.462 from my 50/50 WW-Pb alloy and were water dropped. They were prelubed with a lanolin/100% alcohol mix, GC applied, and sized. The LH standing boolit was sized to 0.452. The RH boolit was sized 0.460. Some fill the lube grooves with lube prior to sizing down this far. I've never found the need with my method. My custom push-through dies have a 6 degree per side leade angle on them and are polished to a 800 grit finish. This keeps you from getting that raggedy-assed look on the driving bands.

[onondaga]

Thankyou.
I am going back to lubing before and after sizing with Lee Liquid Alox. I tried the 45-45-10 mostly because of the reports of such quick drying time. The LLA has to dry over night unless you heat the lubed bullets. I am not sure how case lubricant will behave with LLA over it after sizing. The case lube stays wet.

Heavy bullets like the Lee 440 grain cast and a 335 grain plated bullet and a 350 gr. jacked bullet I tried and some other heavier ones were not getting this accuracy when working up loads for me and the heavier bullets kicked my grandson too much. This little bullet was my final decision for the rifle when the boy could group 1 inch with it. My second choice was the sabotted 45 pistol bullets, but they grouped 1.3 inches and the sabot petals sticking out of the cartridge made loading the rifle slow and finicky.

[Trey45]

Just to throw in another 2 cents here, usually case lube is water soluble, alox isn't, if you did use case lube on top of the alox, the case lube could be rinsed off by a quick dunk in water, the alox would remain, and then just air dry. I have no idea if the case lube would even make a difference, but it might be worth it to try one or two just to see.

[qajaq59]

2 deer? Obviously the bullet works just fine once you do get it sized down.

[mpmarty]

Lube is a funny thing. I use the 50/50 LLA/JPW without any MS and I do not size at all. If it fits in the chamber when loaded it is small enough. My main reason for using the 50/50 mix is the fast drying and non sticky qualities. No lead in the bore is also a benefit.

[chris in va]

I just use silicone spray when I size my 9mm's, works well enough for me.

[Doc Highwall]

You could also consider sizing down in two steps to make it a little easier.

[fryboy]

to all the above i can only add that perhaps this batch of alloy is a wee bit harder ??? or perhaps has age hardened a bit ? either one would make the sizing harder thus requiring more force , as for the sizing down ...sure why not ur only sizing the bands anyways and the worse that could happen would be to get it off center , while recluse's recipe does work great as a fired boolit lube and fair as a sizing lube ( for normal sizing anyways ) makes me also wonder if u prelubed the die or hit the first one clean and dry ...

[9.3X62AL]

Just to be clear--I wasn't throwing rocks at the O/P. His process WORKS, so I'm not about to argue with success. There's more than one way to skin a Caterpillar. My sole concern was tool wear and integrity, and he seems to have that well in hand.

[mooman76]

I tried a few in my 45 acp just for giggles and they shot very good.

[Piedmont]

When I was sizing down jacketed .270 bullets for a Carcano I found the white, water soluble Lee Case Lube handled it better than even the well regarded Imperial Case Sizing Wax. So you might give Lee Case Lube a try on those oversized slugs.

[curator]

WW alloy is soft (BHN 6 or 7) for a day or so after casting. Thereafter it begins to age harden, ending up at BHN 12-14 in 10-12 days. That might also explain the difference in sizing effort. I too use the Lee REAL bullet sized down for different applications with good acuracy. Sizing nose-first does not usually seriously degrade accuracy.

Nice to hear from someone in Nort Tonda-wanda--I miss the NCSA but not New York State!

[onondaga]

Thankyou members that have given me encouraging help, tips and questions. The comments on alloy hardness led me to test the alloy with my Lee Hardness Tester and the alloy was harder than I had expected. My, as cast, BHN for the mix I use is usually 9-10. This alloy used the same measured amounts of WW and Linotype but the WW was from a new batch I had purchased and must be much harder. The Linotype is from the same old batch and wasn't the problem but the new WW brought the BHN up and measured 12.5 one day after casting. That is unusually high and I thank you for helping me along to test BHN early . I usually don't test till 7 days after casting and had trusted that the WW was the same or would have checked it immediately upon purchase.

I do believe the hardness was a factor in the sizing difficulty and plan to adjust my alloy for the next batch of bullets. Unfortunately I cast 240 that are too hard to size and will have to use the metal for one of my different loads.

Gary Abbatte

[Gohon]

I've never had any cast WW drop at 6-7 BHN unless they were the stick on type. Mine which are all clip on type are always around 10-11 and settle in the 11-12 range after a few days. A five point jump in age hardness seems odd to me but I could be wrong. At the same time I don't think the difference in 10 BHN and 12 BHN would show much if any difference in resistance in going through a normal sizing operation. But then again, I could be wrong about that also.

When I size or add gas checks, I put the casts in a butter cup as if to add LLA but instead give them about a 3 second shot of One Shot case lube, swirl then around a little and they go through the sizer as smooth as butter. It is after this process that I add LLA for lube.

Everything I shoot up to 2,000 fps including 357 mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 22 Hornet, and 30-30 are all at 12-13 BHN. Never really found a need for anything harder or softer.

[Papa Jack]

This is interesting reading....I too use a Lee REAL mold in 44 Caliber. I then size these pills down in my Rock Chucker and use a Lee .430 push thru sizer. These shoot great in my Handi in .44 Magnum !
I have been using Automotive Chassis grease for the push thru operation and then size the boolits in my Lyman .430 sizer and lube with Tammerack 50/50...No leading, and the groups are Beer can at 50 yrds with factory open sights and half blind eyes.
Good to see someone else has the idea to size down the REAL bullets....At the time I started that old REAL mold was all I had in .44.
I just ordered a new RD .432.265 mold and a 432 sizer, so I will size a few new bullets down and see how they shoot at .432 compared to .430.
My alloy is a mixture of 63/37 and sheet lead, pretty hard, sometimes I almost need a to put a pipe on the handle of the chucker, a little lop sided after sizing a couple hundred of the hard one, one arm looks like Charles Atlas....

One other thing, Those of you using the LEE case sizing lube (White water soluble cream) don't forget to take your size dies apart and clean them real good and re lube em before storage !! I had a couple dies I had to really get inside and clean out some light (thankfully !) surface rust after storing the dies for several months....

Have fun !! Papa Jack

[HangFireW8]

Gary,


The comments on alloy hardness led me to test the alloy with my Lee Hardness Tester and the alloy was harder than I had expected.

I'm not sure what your melt mix is, but the majority of my WW ingots run from 11 to 13BHN and bullets the same. Are you measuring by filing a flat on the side, and not the bottom?

-HF

[onondaga]

My melt mix has been 8.5 lbs. WW plus 1.5 lbs Linotype for this bullet. I add the Linotype to get better fill out of the mould when casting. My hardness test routine for this bullet is pretty time consuming. I check 5 bullets in two places each; first on a diamond filed flat on the middle bearing band then second on the flat nose of the bullet then take an average of all ten measurements. There is hardly any variation, but I prefer that sample size. I had stopped checking my ingots of WW because they were so consistent. I will start that up again. It is a lot easier to check ingots than bullets with the Lee tester. This new batch had some ingots that were frosty and some that were shiny and some that were dull. They were an Ebay bargain from a new supplier with free shipping.

I never check the bullet base for BHN because that is specifically mentioned in Lee's instructions, But I have a friend that disputes Lee instructions and says that the base is the best place to measure plain base bullets because that area is so important to sealing gasses. Maybe he has a point.

[HangFireW8]

I never check the bullet base for BHN because that is specifically mentioned in Lee's instructions, But I have a friend that disputes Lee instructions and says that the base is the best place to measure plain base bullets because that area is so important to sealing gasses. Maybe he has a point.

I suppose if one were to track loads based on base area hardness, and are consistent with it, it could work well. He might have time trading notes with other cast shooters, though.

I've noticed that ingots from the same (well-stirred, well fluxed) batch differ in hardness if poured at a different temperature. Since controlling temps more carefully for Zinc prevention, they come out a lot more consistent.

Frosty ingots from your new supplier may indicate failure to control for zinc, or maybe he just let the temp run away after removing all floaters and doing ingot pouring from a big pot. Hard to say after the fact.

Different looking ingots would be a caution for me, though. I have all my WW batches labeled by BHN, the softest (from memory) is 10.4 and the hardest batch 19.4. Boolit casting results mirror the ingot tests pretty closely. Most do come in around 11.5, though.

-HF