PDA

View Full Version : Reloading using CB



b.martins
09-27-2006, 10:04 AM
I’ve been reloading for several years now, but I’m new to casting.

Using the powders available to me (namely Vhitavuori and Vectan) haven’t been difficult as most of the reloading manuals have loads listed for these powders.
But not using cast bullets!
Is there any “rule of thumb” I should use when changing from jacketed to cast bullet reload? How can I approach CB reloading in a safe manner?

Incidentally, I will begin by casting 405 grains bullets for my .45/70.

Thanks for your help!

B.Martins

9.3X62AL
09-27-2006, 10:44 AM
B. Martins--

Welcome to the board! I am guessing that you are outside North America, from the powder selections you indicate in your post. I am not very familiar with Vectan or Vhitavuori powders, but others here certainly are--and they should chime in shortly.

A LOT of us are familiar with the 45-70, though--present company included. This caliber may be the most user-friendly cast boolit rifle caliber in existence. That's not hard to understand, since it started life in 1873 as a cast boolit/black powder cartridge. Much of the current data in use today has been developed to adapt this black powder/cast boolit animal to modern components--so "returning" the 45-70 caliber to its "roots" is an easy task. I would say that most existing load data for the 45-70 and jacketed bullets could be used almost verbatim with a similar-weight cast boolit to arrive at usable recipes. Rule of thumb--all other things being equal, a jacketed bullet creates more potential pressure due to jacket/bore surface friction than do lead alloy cast boolits--so most 45-70 loads will create less pressure with cast boolits than with their jacketed counterparts. In the 45-70, you have the ability to reach the caliber's full performance potential with cast boolits. Be aware that there are at least 3 "classes" of 45-70 platform strength, though--1) Trapdoor Springfield level 2) Winchester 1886/Marlin 1895 level 3) Ruger #1/#3 and Siamese Mauser level. Which rifle(s) will you be using?

There's no free lunch, though--at some point in the velocity continuum, you bump up against the limits of boolit strength posed by the lead alloys we use. In more modern calibers--e.g., 30-06, 7 x 57, 243--velocities in excess of 2200 FPS are very difficult to achieve accurate results with, and a "sweet spot" seems to exist for most modern calibers between 1500 and 1800 FPS. Each caliber presents its own quirks and capabilities with regard to cast boolit utility, so "rules of thumb" become a little tough to come up with that span the wide range of chamberings out there. There are as few members here who routinely exceed these limits on speed with fine accuracy, but I suspect their road to that destination was a long one.

But a few such rules do exist. Other posters will follow with more such info, but I'll conclude here by saying that no element of the cast boolit/rifle interface is as important as how the boolit fits in the barrel/throat. If the boolit isn't big enough, accuracy will either be non-existent--or will degrade quickly. With respect to the 45-70, many "off the shelf" molds will not cast lead alloy boolits large enough to properly fit the barrel, so the FIRST thing to do--before buying mold(s) for your rifle--is to slug or Cerrosafe-cast your rifle's throat and bore to obtain those CRITICAL dimensions.

Again--welcome aboard!

versifier
09-27-2006, 11:03 AM
If you do not have one already, get a copy of Richard Lee's Modern Reloading. In it, he has tons of good info (also a healthy dose of promotion for his products) and he has a formula for calculating safe reduced powder loads for cast boolits. In a nutshell: For the powder/cartridge/jacketed bullet weight in question find the max load(M) and the starting load(S) and take the difference(D): M-S=D Then subtract the difference (D) from the starting load (S) to get the reduced starting load (R) for cast boolits of the same weight: S-D=R Work up from R in one grain increments until you find the most accurate load. I have used this formula successfully with rifle loads from .30 carbine to .30-06 (including .30-30, .308, & .30-40Krag). If you cannot buy a copy of the book where you are, let us know and one of us can send you one.

Bullshop
09-27-2006, 12:33 PM
For the most part you can safely substitute a boolit for a bullet. In most cases a cast boolit of equal weight will give lower pressure with like powder charge. There can be exceptions to that basic rule but as long as you follow the basic rule for all ammo loading ( start low and work up) you will be safe. I like to use load data that shows pressure. I generaly look at starting loads for bullets to see if they are within the velocity range I want then look at the powders that gave the lowest pressure to get there.
That is a simple answer to your question that has many answers.
Be cautious loading for the 45/70 depending on the action type you have.
Some actions are limited to 20,000 psi while others can handle 60,000 psi.

Buckshot
09-28-2006, 03:26 AM
...........b.martins , please let me add my welcome to the board also! You're located about as far west as Europe goes, I do believe :-)

Most any firearm is cast friendly within certain parameters. Those that are especially good are those with a moderate case capacity to their bore diameter. So far as rifles go, those that originally topped out at about 2200 fps can just about be reloaded using cast, with the very same load data as shown for jacketed slugs.

As Deputy Al mentioned, your 45-70 is an easy one to load for and shoot cast lead in. Assuming you have a modern rifle like the Marlin 1895 you can go from mild to , "Whatever possesed me to load THESE!" In fact if you have the correct round ball mould available to you (.460" or so) you can load these over very small charges of fast pistol/shotgun powders for some very good short range plinking with almost no recoil and very low noise.

While it is in desperate need of being brought up to date so far as load data is concerned, the Lyman Cast Bullet manual has a lot of excellent info in it besides load data. While it shows only those powders common here in the United States, some cross referenceing with an up to date burn rate chart can get you started. It also covers almost all aspects of getting good results with cast lead.

...............Buckshot

mosin9130
09-28-2006, 04:26 AM
B.Martin,
the Vhitavuori manual shows for 45-70 and cast bullets the following loads with weights both in grams and grains and velocities in m/s and fps:

LFN w/ gas check Wheigt 33.1g = 510grs c.o.l. 64.7mm = 2.547"

Powder N120 1.70g = 26.2grs 360m/s = 1181fps
1.90g = 29.3grs 408m/s = 1339fps

N130 2.00g = 30.9grs 389m/s = 1276fps
2.30g = 35.5grs 495m/s = 1624fps

Other loads (jacketed) shaown are:

XFN Barnes 19.4g 300grs c.o.l. 64.8mm = 2.551”

Powder N130 3.10 g = 47.8grs 547m/s = 1795
3.37 g = 52.0grs 602 m/s = 1975

RN Hornady 22.7g 350grs c.o.l. 64.7mm = 2.547”
Powder N130 3.11 g = 48.0grs 522 m/s = 1713
3.46 g = 53.4 grs 614 m/s = 2014
N133 3.26 g = 50.3 grs 507 m/s = 1663
3.72 g = 57.4 grs 621 m/s = 2037
N530 3.45 g = 53,2 grs 509 m/s = 1670
3.82 g = 58,9 grs 606 m/s = 1988

FN Speer 25.9g 400grs c.o.l. 64.7 mm = 2.547”
Powder N130 2,90 g = 44.7 grs 489 m/s = 1604
3.22 g = 49.7 grs 559 m/s = 1834
N133 3.06 g = 47.2 grs 485 m/s = 1591
3.40 g = 52.5 grs 574 m/s = 1883
N530 3.20 g = 49.4 grs 478 m/s = 1568
3.52 g = 54.3 grs 568 m/s = 1864


Test barrel: 560 mm (22"), 1 in 20" twist
Primers: Large Rifle
Cases: Remington, trim-to length 53.30 mm (2.098")
WARNING: These loads are to be used only in modern rifles like Ruger #1 or .45-70's chambered on Mauser type bolt actions. They MUST NOT be used in old rifles with weaker actions like Trapdoor and old Marlin mod. 1895. The listed maximum loads do not exceed 210 MPa.

I have also the loads for Vectan powders and as soon as possible I'll post them.
In my experience, Vectan powders are hard to ignite and don't burn well in reduced loads unless you use a filler.

About the powders,
Tubal 1 has burning rate very close to Winchester 296 and you can use its loads with safe;
N120 and Tubal 2 are similar to IMR 4198;
N130 is similar to IMR 3031;
N135 and Tubal4 are similar to IMR 4895;
N140 and Tubal5 are similar to IMR 4320.
Remember what said by 45/70's users (not me) about the 3 "classes" of 45/70 platform strength.

dagamore
09-28-2006, 05:23 AM
Wow
this thread delivers some great info.

I have not heard of the S-(M-S)=R for switching from same bullite type/weight in cast vs jacketed. I just always went with the S-15% for pistol/light loads, and S-25% for Rifle/Hot/Fast loads. and used my crono to work up from there. But i always, even when using jacketed bullets, started all my loads off at S-5% and worked up in either .1 or .2 grains and i dont think i have ever loaded a round to Max, i always hit a sweet spot for accuracy before that.

just my 2 euro cents, damn i wish i was back in WA and casting/shooting again :(

b.martins
09-28-2006, 06:28 AM
Thank you all for your warm welcome and most useful tips!

I will start casting for a Marlin 1895 G. Slugged the barrel and got a .457” reading.

Most of the needed items are in place: a 405 grains HB mould (Lee), an ingot mould, a thermometer, a dipper, a bullet sizer (Lee).
Will start by using a lead pot (already ordered), as furnaces are really very expensive (equipment prices are more than twice the USA’s prices, so I have to keep it simple, at least in the beginning). All equipment was ordered from Spain, as there isn’t any available locally.
Have already managed to stock some lead: over 70 pounds of plumber’s pipes; 80 pounds of wheel weights and 10 pounds of tin stick-on wheel weights. Working on finding some linotype.

I think I am ready to start (as soon as I get the lead pot).

I am ware that I will face many difficulties but I am counting on your kind help to overcome them!

Thanks

B.Martins

Wayne Smith
09-28-2006, 07:22 AM
For the 45-70, and especially the Marlin, you don't need the stick-ons and probably don't want the Lino- don't bother. WW's are about the same hardness when air cooled as 30/1 lead/tin and about ideal for Trapdoor type loads. The advantage of ww's is that you can water drop or heat treat them and harden them up for faster loads that your Marlin can handle.

When you get that mold up to temp and cast some bullets measure them to make sure you are getting a .4575 or .458 boolit.

As far as pots go I started with a 1qt kitchen stainless steel pot and am still using it. It holds close to 20 lbs and sits on the Coleman stove very nicely.

Buckshot
09-29-2006, 01:26 AM
.............b.martins, just a friendly suggestion that if you plan on doing any shooting at all, that amount of lead you have on hand will last a 45 cal rifle about a week :-) You need to become ruthless in your pursuit of plumbous material to render into boolits!

BTW, do you belong to a shooting club or have any friends who actively shoot? I'm also curious as to what firearms ownership entails and what the laws are like?

................Buckshot

mosin9130
09-29-2006, 06:56 AM
B.Martin, here the loads from SNPE tables for Vectan powders and 45-70:

Lead RCBS 45-405 26,20g = 405 grs CCI 200 primer
Powder BA6 1,40g = 21 grs 350 m/s = 1148 fps pressure 1100 bars = 15950 psi
Powder TU2 1,90g = 29 grs 420 m/s = 1378 fps pressure 1400 bars = 20300 psi

Keep in mind that the old Tubal 1, Tubal 2, etc. now are Tubal 1000, Tubal 2000, etc. and have a bit different burning rate but, being you far away from max pressures, you can use the old loads.

Buckshot
09-30-2006, 11:28 AM
...............BTW, that Tubal 2000 that mosin9130 mentioned is "JUST LIKE" H4198. A company here had it on close out and I bought 32 lbs of it due to it's use description. I loaded it load for load with H4198 in several different cartridges and the average velocity's, accuracy and apparent pressures are close enough for them to be the same powder.

.............Buckshot

NVcurmudgeon
09-30-2006, 01:10 PM
b.martins, welcome to the best web site in existence. Our membership is truly world-wide, but you are the first from Portugal. You have been given excellent starting advice by others, so I will add only two small points. Before shooting cast boolits in your Marlin, clean out all copper fouling from jacketed bullets. Also, get rid of any lead fouling when going back to jacketed bullets. You are very articulate in English, but may not have seen the word "boolits" used elsewhere. "Boolits" is a way of meaning cast bullets, as opposed to jacketed bullets, initiated by one of our members.

b.martins
10-02-2006, 11:57 AM
Thank you all once again for your valuable advice.
As soon as I start casting my first “boolits” I will report with an account of my achievements!

Buckshot,

I am just a hunter that has loaded his won ammunition all his life.
Shooting ranges are not very common in my country. Even around Lisbon there is only one private rifle range that can be used during all week and another military range that can be used by the members of one club only on Saturdays.
So it’s not easy to develop loads and practice!
Meanwhile the law on fire arms, gun shops, gun collecting, shooting ranges, etc… was changed this year and there is still legislation being prepared and issued has we speak, so big changes are to be expected regarding gun ownership, reloading, shooting, etc…
Though private shooting ranges are likely to be allowed in country areas (under the new law), without the imposition of demands impossible to meet (financially).
So far there aren’t limitations regarding ownership of shotguns and rifles. You can buy as many shotguns as you want provided you have a type “D” (shotgun) permit. And you can ask for an authorization for another rifle, no matter how many you have, if you have a “C” permit, and you will be granted the authorization for sure (don’t know of any one being turned down so far).
But all this may change in the short future. Our socialist government is tightening the circle on us hunters, shooters and gun owners!


B.Martins