How much will wind effect short range shooting?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Howdy!

I was out running some more load development rounds through my Marlin 1894 44 mag 20" barrel . . . shooting at fifty (50) yards, the wind was coming from my right (West) at about 10 mph, but was not steady . . . I was shooting some of my new 434640 solids which weigh 272gr, pushed by 9.0gr Unique. I didn't figure that the wind would be that much of a problem . . .

I don't have a chrony, but . . . by some guessing . . . a 240gr swc w/8.5gr Unique out of a 7.5" barrel should be about 1000 fps . . . so I figure it was running about 1350 fps . . .

Here is my target, do you think the wind made the two groups, or just my poor shooting with a peep sight?
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/434640Solid2348in.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

A 10 mph from 3 or 9 o'clock will push your bullet off about 1 to 1.5" at 50 yards depending on the actual BC, Velocity and wind direction. Looks like it "gotcha".

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

With a B.C. of .180 at 1300 FPS with a 10 MPH wind, at 50 yards the wind drift will be 1.1" and at 100 yards the wind drift will be 4.1". I do not know what the B.C. of your bullet is so I just used .180 which is probably high.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Well the Hornady 265 JFP has a bc of .191 which looks simular to the 434640:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/434640Solid.jpg

It's a big hunk of lead . . . surprised it would move that much at such a short distance . . . it was coming at about 3 O'clock . . .

[HeavyMetal]

A litle faster and it might not have moved that much!

I am going to suspect you shot two strings at this target?

Between a slight wind and a change of grip on the rifle ( when you reload) and yes you shot two groups.

[lwknight]

Wind moves bullets a lot. I watched 45s fly like a curveball. You could see the drift of 6" or so at 25 yards. I know 45s are a lot slower , just saying it can be profound.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Actually that was ten shots, but I have to change my grip on the stock to run the lever . . . but I did not re-load, as the gun holds that many, however I did pick up the gun between shots to cycle the lever each time . . .

I'll try some more when it is not so windy, or only pull the trigger when the wind has died down . . . this last time when my sight picture was OK, I pulled the trigger not figuring the wind would be much of a problem.


[smilie=s:

[Blammer]

Both are minute of Deer! I'd have to say the wind and a change of grip were against you. It's still good shooting!

[runfiverun]

wind affect a boolits course more the closer to the muzzle it is.
at short distances it's more likely to push on you.
also, with open sights the sun on your front sight will pull your shots that way, from the glare.

[btroj]

I worry more about bench technique at 50 yards than I do wind. I shoot verge little from a rest so I usually feel that two group groups, if that makes sense, are due to me rather than due to wind.
While wind can have an effect it would need to be full value at 90 degrees and unobstructed by trees, etc to have enough effect for me to worry about at 50 yards.
Yes, I know what the ballistics software, etc says. I just think it is more a factor of the rifle/rest/shooter/hold interactions than it is environmental. We are not talking a bench rest rifle of bench rest shooter here.

Brad

[Doc Highwall]

Brad, actually it all affects our shooting and it does not matter if we are not shooting a bench-rest rifle and we are not bench-rest shooters. What is more important is that we understand that their is more to it then meets the eye. Then as we want to shoot better we work on the thing that we feel is holding us back the most and we will see an improvement and more enjoyment in our hobby. Just remember it is not all about equipment, technique and knowledge is very important and can beat high dollar new fangled equipment so don't let the lack of fancy stuff get in the way and hold you back.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Did you say trees? That is one of the reasons I want to move! I grew up in Vermont!

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Hunting002.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Guns058.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Dusty-Muzzleloader20Bore006s.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Hunting/AugHunting1.jpg

Not much for trees around here . . .

I have a fiber optic sight on the front . . .

I'll load up some more, and see what happens.

[1Shirt]

:coffeeI shoot the majority of rifle rounds from the bench except when I am getting ready for deer season when I do practice a bit off hand. It is my opinion that wind is a definate factor even at short range particularly with cast blts and small cal. A 225438 or 225415 at under 2000 fps. is about as sensitive to wind as a wife whose husband forgot her anniversary. That is why I respect Beagle's article on 22 center fires. Can often get 5 shot groups at 50 under an inch, but seems like the 3rd. or 4th round is what pushes it out to an inch while the other 4 shots are under an inch. This seems to lessen (at least to me) as blt dia and weight goes up. From the bench, even with cross winds of up to say 15K, don't think it has much effect if any on my 45-70 at 50 yds at 1200-1500 w/ 385-405 gr blts. Of course in theory, at 100 groups are supposed to be double the 50 yd group. So much for theory in my experiance! And then to, is the factor of consistancy of the load, the exactness of the blt by weight, etc.
Don't know about you, but I don't weigh each blt. of much over 175-180 gr. as I think it is a waste of time, unless I am shooting in a match. That is particularly true of pistol blts even if I am shooting them out of a rifle. For my rifles in 357, 44 mag, and 444, if I am in the 2-3" at 50 yds, and 3-5" at 100, I am happy. When less than that (and that does occaisionally happen, I am delighted. Then again I am an old codger, and if I was in my 20s or 30's with good eyes, would porbably expect more and better.
1Shirt:coffee:

[fecmech]

A litle faster and it might not have moved that much!




Actually a little slower and he would have gotten less wind drift. From what I've seen in most ballistic calculators once you pass about 1100 fps (speed of sound roughly) your wind drift increases until you get to about 1800- 2000 fps before it decreases . Using a .180 bc and 1300 fps on the calculator at http://handloads.com/calc/index.html I get 1.51" of drift @10 mph. At 1100 fps it shows 1.3" and not until you get to 1800 FPS do you get back to 1.3" I think that's why all the .22 target ammo is subsonic.

[btroj]

I still say it is more a shooter error than wind. I firmly believe that many people think that if they only find the magic load or magic whatever they will shoot tiny groups all day.
Like Doc Highwall said- it is not about the equipment, it is about shooter skill.
I am not saying wind is not a factor but I think too many people use wind or "flyers" as a copout. It certainly can't be them.
I hold myself responsible for putting every shot where it belongs, no excuses. If I screw up, I admit it.

Brad

[Bret4207]

With a B.C. of .180 at 1300 FPS with a 10 MPH wind, at 50 yards the wind drift will be 1.1" and at 100 yards the wind drift will be 4.1". I do not know what the B.C. of your bullet is so I just used .180 which is probably high.

I had no idea wind drift could be that high at 50 yards! I know I've looked at the charts before, but that kind of sets me back on my heels. Think of the drift these clowns taking Hail Mary shots at 200 plus yards at game are contending with. No wonder our coyotes are so fat!

[1Shirt]

Gotta agree with both Doc and Btroj. There are way to many shooters that play the blame game. Blame the load, blame the wind, blame the overcast, blame the sun, etc.etc.etc, but fail to blame themselfs for what happens down range. As to wind, if all other things are considered, and IF the shooter can not dope the wind (particularly from the bench)with any degree of accuracy in order to compensate-----well, enough said!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I'm not blaming anything, I was just curious if wind could have been a factor in such short range shooting with a realitivly heavy boolit . . .


[smilie=s:

[ole 5 hole group]

I’ll throw my pennies worth in here. There really isn’t anything magical about shooting bug hole groups in either wind or mirage conditions. The 1st thing you need is a well set-up rifle. If that rifle can shoot 0.250” groups consistently at 100 yards in dead calm conditions with a particular load by you – then you can shoot 0.250” groups at 100 yards with serious wind conditions.

In order to do so, you need to educate yourself in how a cross-wind, quartering wind, head wind or tail wind effects your particular bullet exiting a right hand twist barrel. Once you know that – then you must possess the ability to judge both wind speed and direction. You can then either dial-in the correction or hold-off the proper amount.

Doesn’t matter whether you’re shooting competitively, hunting or just plinking – if you are an experienced rifleman and seldom mishandle your rifle, then your 2 to 5 hole groups are because you either misjudged the direction & wind speed or your scope/aperture sights just took a hike on ya.

In benchrest they have a zillion flags to watch plus a mirage board to better enable them to properly read the conditions – that’s how important wind reading is to accuracy – without the flags and boards the groups would normally be a bit larger and most of those boys know how to handle a rifle off a bench and can shoot pretty good off their hind legs while in the field.

Do they put salt on the bullets in Arizona?, as it looks like it would take you a week to get there.

[felix]

"most of those boys know how to handle a rifle off a bench and can shoot pretty good off their hind legs while in the field."

Yeah, they know how, but most are too lazy to apply the same techniques when having fun targets, like deer, tin cans, rocks, etc. BR stuff tends to be nothing short of serious work after about the 1st year or so, and that tends to make other kind of gun outings a welcomed relief. Obviously, the effects are dependent on the type of person and the event. ... felix

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Five hole - I just didn't think that the wind at that range would make a difference, so I did not compensate for it, I just pulled the trigger when the sight picture was good . . . I have learned a lot from this thread, thanx everybody!

I don't understand the salt and a week to get there comment . . . please explain.

[waksupi]

The worst wind condition I remember shooting in, was at a ranch south of Great Falls, Mt.
It was blowing so hard, you had to seriously brace yourself to stay upright.
I was next to the truck, and a deer came out of a coulee about 45 yards away. I tried leaning on the hood, but was being pushed around too much. So, I sat on the ground, using the truck for a wind break. First shot was a clean miss, and I had to hold over into the wind nearly a half deer length to put a bullet into it.

[leadman]

Benz, salt to preserve the meat until you walk to the animal in a weeks time.
Having shot a couple of military 200 yard matches with a 1903a3 and cast I can tell you wind does affect the boolit, but probably not as much as you show in your target.
Do you weigh your bullets before lubing snd sizing? I found that this helps eleminate the type of group you have. Also shrinks the overall size.
If the sunlight on the front sight changes for some reason, as a cloud passing over this can have more effect than a mild wind.

[ole 5 hole group]

Leadman has been around and knows a few uses for salt. A little carbon on the sights help with the sunlight.

Felix – you’ve probably been around that benchrest crowd I see – there’s more than a few that are very serious about their equipment and technique but being obsessed is probably a better term to use.

If someone has an idea to improve accuracy - they will put it to the test in short order and share the information with everyone. I know one day a few guys including me were complaining about the Model 700 recoil lug being a time problem when reseating the action after switching barrels. A fellow suggested trying a half moon lug and within a week, we had half moon recoil lugs and the problem was solved. If it wasn’t for that guy I would probably still be cussing about it, as I was a shooter (not too good at that either) and not much of a thinker or inventor of anything.

The likes of people such as Mike Walker, who has contributed more than his fair share to the shooting world like you have, was one of those benchresters and a good one at that. For those that are true gun powder junkies, we are indebted to fellows like you & Walker – keep up the good work.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Naw, I don't weigh them . . . remember this is a 44 mag leveraction . . . not a benchrest gun . . . I was actually quite happy with the less than 2.5" group, (the best I've shot with it so far) just got to thinking if maybe the wind had anything to do with it!

I only had ten of that boolit style and powder combination, I'll load up some more and see what they do . . .

I have a fiberoptic front sight . . . not sure carbon would help that . . .

Can't shoot the boolit far enough to need salt, even though it looks like you can see along ways, one way is only seven miles to the base of the Mt's, the other way is about 35 miles to the base of the Mt's, we live in a wide valley, but there is a lot of brush which limits actual shooting/sighting game distance in most of the places I hunt.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Hunting003.jpg

That grass is two feet high, and you always gotta keep an eye and ear open for rattlesnakes too!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Hunting/AugHunting3.jpg

There are some wide open area's that can't hide a deer, but they don't usually hang out there, javelina, rabbits, coyotes, are good at hiding in low cover

[ole 5 hole group]

Hunting in desert and high desert country can be a painful experience - I think I've walked into more than my share of thickets having a hundred 0.5" daggers on every branch. There's a bunch of stuff out there either scrapping your hide or drawing blood by any means possible - I think that's why some of the old timers in that area have skin that will give leather a run for the money.

My off-road/hunting pickup possessed "Arizona pinstripping" and was available free of charge to everyone travelling most narrow trails in the foothills.

[felix]

If it were not for Mike's status with Remington, we prolly would be 20 years behind in gun building today. He got the big money behind some additional experiments and they did come up with some improvements that Remington could not sell, like heavy duty actions. Others came onto the scene to take up the slack, including the very fine BR bullets that were made at Remington and sold to the BR crowd. Soon, that assembly line quit too. The best tweaking improvements were then exhibited by the warehouse experiments in Houston circa 1975-80, getting the guns to produce 0.055-0.075 groups continually. It would take electronics to better that, so they decided generally the material game was all but over and they shut down the warehouse to guns which relieved the cops from wild goose nightly phone calls. Everything else now depends on the shooter. ... felix

[ole 5 hole group]

The best tweaking improvements were then exhibited by the warehouse experiments in Houston circa 1975-80, getting the guns to produce 0.055-0.075 groups continually. It would take electronics to better that, so they decided generally the material game was all but over and they shut down the warehouse to guns which relieved the cops from wild goose nightly phone calls. Everything else now depends on the shooter. ... felix

What a small world we live in - there were only a few "privileged characters" allowed in that warehouse. You sir, must walk among the giants.

As you know, Virgil was a rifle handling technician in dead nuts conditions, equaled by very few in this great country. He had his problems with wind & mirage in matches but in that warehouse he was “King” in more ways than one. T.J. & Frank were among the privileged few and I was honored to be asked to tag along with those two on occasion with my rifles and witnessed some amassing load development with the BR and PPC cartridges.

It was both a humbling and exciting experience to watch a perfectly bedded sporter start out with a known accurate load shooting 0.180” and then tweaking a little here & there to wind up shooting a 5 shot group measuring 0.0XX and to repeat that group on demand and watch each cartridge perform in the exact same manner time after time.

T.J. wrote a few articles in precision shooting back then, on the knowledge gained and many individuals didn’t believe a word. I think Standard Oil might have played a part in the warehouse closing its doors.

[felix]

Besides nobody could shoot these tricked guns for real anyway, especially on ranges further west. In fact, even the Tomball shoots did not do the guns justice and actually they were no better than the normal shooting guns. All this is statistics, however. It takes real weathermen to do guns of this quality justice, and as you know these kind of individuals are far and very few in between. Riflemen, in general, need not apply. We are just too emotional. ... felix

[ole 5 hole group]

Besides nobody could shoot these tricked guns for real anyway, especially on ranges further west.

That was the killer right there - sitting at the bench watching 2 dozen flags that were, in your opinion, providing honest conditions in your shooting lane with a rifle proven to be a zero shooter – then end the day with a 0.350 or larger aggregate.

They call the scoring board "the wailing wall" for a reason.

Trying to clean turkeys in high power will drive a guy nuts in short order as well.

Takes a ton of thoughtful trigger time to half-ass master any of the shooting disciplines for most of us.