PDA

View Full Version : contender wont fire



Bullshop
09-25-2006, 10:02 PM
Got an early model frame today prolly second model. Has the early trigger that adjusts from inside the frame. It works just fine without a barrel but when I mount a barrel it wont drop the hammer.
It cocks fine and the hammer will set but when I pull the trigger it clicks and the hammer will move ever so slightly but no go. If I pull the hammer all the way back and hold the trigger in it will go past full cock, or when cocked if I break the action the hammer will drop. It just wont drop the hammer when I try to shoot it.
I have tried everything I know to do and no go. I tried several barrels that work on other frames but no go on this one.
Anybody got a contact for Thompson Center?
Thanks
BIC/BS

StarMetal
09-25-2006, 10:22 PM
Contender Misfires

What Causes Them and What to Do About Them

The Contender frame is one of the most misunderstood firearms components, but there is no need for the confusion that exists.

Hammer springs can be weak or broken and firing pins can be broken, but the most common cause of misfires is due to the frame doing what it is supposed to do....NOT FIRE IF IT IS NOT LOCKED UP PROPERLY.

Look at your barrel's locking bolts. That top surface must slide under its mating surface inside the frame in order for the barrel to be locked up and safe to fire.

Look inside the frame with the barrel off of it. Above and behind the top of the trigger is a little butterfly looking plate hanging there at an angle. This is called the interlock. When the locking bolts engage the frame, they push back on the forward end of the interlock. On the back side of the interlock is a tab that holds the hammer block safety up when the barrel is open, OR, if it is not locked up sufficiently to be safe to fire. The hammer block is the wide, flat bar inside the frame in front of the hammer that slides up and down as the frame is cycled. It is NOT a transfer bar, in case that is what you think it is.

In order to fire there is a chain of events that have to happen:

1) The locking bolts must engage the frame far enough to be safe to fire.

2) The locking bolts must rotate the interlock far enough that it FULLY releases the hammer block so that

3) the hammer block is FREE to fall out of the way of the hammer when

4) the striker hits the forward end of the sear, the sear rotates, and at the same time

5) releases the hammer AND the upper arm of the sear releases the hammer block.


(Note that the upper arm of the sear holds the hammer block up at all times until the sear is rotated and the hammer block is released along with the hammer. But it is the interlock that also holds the hammer block up if the barrel is not fully locked up..... or if there is no barrel on the frame of course. Take some time playing with the frame, follow the sequences, and I think you will soon understand how it works. If you do, you will be one of the very few that do. A big percentage of Contender shooters, dealers, AND "gunsmiths" don't.)

OK, so the locking bolts must engage the frame and release the hammer block. Fine. So what is happening when it won't fire? This assumes you can cock the hammer in a normal manner. Failure to be able to cock the hammer is another subject.

Two very simple things prevent the locking bolts from engaging into the frame far enough to release the hammer block safety.


1) The top surface of the locking bolts is too high. This is just the particular tolerance
variations in a particular barrel and frame combination. Older vintages of barrels and frames
may be more prone to this problem, but it happens every day in new, current production as well.
It happens.

2) The cartridge case sticks out of the chamber too far due 9 times out of ten to the person
resizing cases not understanding how to adjust the size die to bump shoulders back on
bottleneck cases. In firing, the frame stretches a bit. This stretch lets the case grow in length
from shoulder to head. If this excess length is not removed, it interferes with the barrel
closing...... it is too long, too big. Make it right and it will work.

(A third item has been mentioned, and that is a bent extractor, but I assumed that one would
straighten or replace an extractor that was bent, especially if bent badly enough to interfere with
closing the barrel.)

What to do......

If you close an empty barrel, cock the hammer, pull the trigger, and the hammer block does not drop, the locking bolts are too high and either need to be replaced with undersize locking bolts, which TC does make and sell for this purpose, OR the top surface of the locking bolts must be lowered by proper metal removal. A Diamond EZ Lap is the best tool I have found for this.

BUT, even if the block does drop with an empty chamber, the end of the tab I referred to on the interlock may not be getting moved out of the way FAR ENOUGH to not rub on the hammer block and impede its fall.

Therefore...... you should also ink the top of the locking bolts with a felt tip pen, then open and close the barrel several times to get a "signature" in the ink showing how far the locking bolts are sliding under their mating surface in the frame.... called, btw, the locking table. The locking bolts should show the ink marred to a point about 1/32" forward of the "U" notch in the locking bolts. If they do not, then either order a set of undersize locking bolts from TC or learn the correct way to dress down the top of the locking bolts.... if you are up to doing it yourself. If you aren't, then contact TC about sending your problem barrel and frame to them check out and repair for you as needed. (Working down the tops of the locking bolts will be addressed in another section on this site as time permits.)

OK, you have addressed the lockup issue. Everything is fine, but you get misfires, still. Remember the hammer spring. It should be replaced periodically anyway. If it feels even the least bit soft or mushy, definitely replace it. If you are shooting military .223 Rem ammo, it has a harder primer and TC does not warrant the Contender to shoot it. It will when things are right, but normally, it may not. Make sure the firing pins look normal and are not broken. Push them forward through the breech face and examine them.

This leaves only one thing left. The barrel is not closing all the way.

Once in awhile a barrel will be too long from the hinge pin back, and the barrel will hit on the breech face before the locking bolts drop down far enough to engage the frame. Not common, but it does happen. You can send it to TC, or take a few judicious strokes with a file on the end of the barrel to correct this. This is rare, so don't go whacking on your barrel until you are sure this is needed.

Once in awhile the chamber is not cut deeply enough for factory ammo or new factory cases, rimmed or rimless. Usually TC cuts chambers amply deep. You are most likely to encounter this problem with custom barrels. Cutting the chamber deeper is the cure if it is for a factory round, best done by someone who knows what he is doing with chamber reamers. If it is for a wildcat round, the size die may need to be shortened enough to permit it to push shoulders back farther.


Joe

Bullshop
09-25-2006, 11:02 PM
Nice try Joe but none of that is the problem. I do have a fair understanding of how they work. I have been using them for 25 years but never had this happen. The problem here is not a misfire but a non fire. Everything works right up until the hammer is supposed to fall but it wont. On a misfire caused by the frame not being fully locked the hammer will fall but not reach the firing pin.
It works fine with no barrel mounted but with one on the hammer just wont fall. It acts like its falling into a half cock notch on the hammer but there aint one. Just cant figure it out. I did find an address for TC repair service.
BIC/BS

D.Mack
09-25-2006, 11:05 PM
Bullshop...... Drop the trigger assenbly out, by removing the the pin in the front of the trigger guard, and the screw and spring behind the trigger guard. The fly, The little thingy that should be pointing up, above the trigger, push that down to engage the trigger. and pull the trigger, does it fly very quickly or not, if not are both leg of the spring still there? This can cause similar conditions to what you describe. Also check the Hammer spring to make sure one of those legs arn't broke. As for the trigger / hammer relationship, there isn't any, as the trigger releases the fly , which hits the sear, to make the hammer fall.
..... Now while the trigger is out turn the gun upsie down, and push the sear with a pencil, see if the hammer will fall, and if anything is in there that doesn't belong. dirt, grit, loose primmer ect.
..... since you say it doesn't do this without the barrel, that relates to the locking lugs, and the butterfly catch under the breechface. If the screw that holds the butterfly in place is loose, it will keep the gun from firing, by not letting the hammer fall all the way, The butterfly releases the safey block which gets out of the way of the hammer, but if the safety block doesn't move it stops the hammer about 1/4 inch from the firing pin. not at the rearmost position. anyways, good luck, wish I could see it, because it can't be too complicated, those older frames were simple straight forward designs DM

D.Mack
09-25-2006, 11:07 PM
went away to answer the phone and joe out typed me

StarMetal
09-25-2006, 11:22 PM
Dan,

It's obvious the barrel in interfering in some way through the locking lugs or catch as Mack said. Sometimes when you work with something that long you overlook some of the simpler things.

That article kind of covers two things together, not firing and misfires if you ready it right. That part where the interlock has to rotate COMPLETELY out of the way sound it. You might want to mark all those parts up with blue dye and put it together and see what is rubbing and what isn't.

Joe

Jon K
09-26-2006, 12:12 AM
Dan,

Call T/C- Repair Dept-Contenders, They only have 2 guys working on the T/C Contenders, currently. both are good craftsmen. 603 332-2333
They will fit the barrel to the frame- no charge.

I think your problem is the locking lug pin, I have had similar problems, and had to change it, to make the gun fire.
First the lugs need to be long enough, and lock under the ledge in the frame, that the lugs fit come first then, and here comes the problem, they made different diameter and length pins, or in some aftermarket barrels- intergrated pins.

Your early gun first or second edition, for collectors value, keep the early octagon barrels fitted to that barrel. Also early forends for the octagon barrel don't fit the newer frame and barrel.

I have had T/C rebuild several frames for me, the work is exellent and you can't beat the price- warranty no charge.

That's my $.02 worth, hope it helps,
Jon

Bullshop
09-26-2006, 01:09 AM
With some help from my friends here here is what I found so far.
I pulled the trigger assembly and pulled the striker pin as the striker seemed kinda week. The pin has a bit of a bend in it and the spring came out in two peaces. Musta been in a bind as the pin has some real shiney spots on it. The spring broke off one leg and most of the first coil. I dont know what caused the bind but am not sure this is all the problem. So first things first, anybody got a striker spring for this gun?
I may have to box it up and send to TC, DRATS!!!
Want yall to know how much I appreciate the help though!!!
BIC/BS

7br
09-26-2006, 06:57 AM
T/C has two styles of locking lugs. Check and make sure you have the split lugs. I had a .22 barrel that acted about the same. Called T/C and they sent me a set of the split lugs and it fixed the problem.

BABore
09-26-2006, 10:04 AM
I might be inclined to get ahold of Mike Bellum at;

http://www.bellmtcs.com/

or post on his forum at;

http://www.bellmtcs.com/forum/index.php

No offense to T/C, cause I own several of them, but this guy knows his stuff IMO, better than T/C. He also carries a ton of custom parts like increased power bolt springs, oversized hinge pins and such.

Mugs
09-26-2006, 11:30 AM
I shot TC's for years before I had the first stricker spring break. I've had two break in the last 1 1/2 years. Call TC they will mail you one. Get a spare.
Mugs

Bullshop
09-26-2006, 12:55 PM
T/C has two styles of locking lugs. Check and make sure you have the split lugs. I had a .22 barrel that acted about the same. Called T/C and they sent me a set of the split lugs and it fixed the problem.

7br
I have 1/2 a dozen barrels and none have the split lug. All these barrels work fine on two other frames I have so I ?????. I will have to ask for those when I ask for a pin and spring. I dont want to put the bent striker pin back eather. I just cant imagin what bent that pin.
When things dont work some folks just keep gettin a bigger hammer, ya suppose?
BIC/Daniel

StarMetal
09-26-2006, 01:15 PM
Got a nice set of poundin hammers, yall needin a set Daniel? :kidding:

Joe

Bullshop
09-26-2006, 04:45 PM
Got a nice set of poundin hammers, yall needin a set Daniel? :kidding:

Joe

Joe
Hold the biggest one for me,cuz before this is done I might need it.

All
Bad news from TC! What kinda magic you guys using to get parts from TC?
I called today and the fella said OH! you gotta send it in for a $55.00 conversion to new style, and send in all your barrels for conversion the split lug.
HAY! I dont want no conversion to open easier I just want it to shoot. It opens just fine, just squeeze and it drops open.
He says they cant just be sending out parts, and I have to return it all for these repair/upgrades.
I cant send all my stuff in, sides it all works just fine on the other two frames. So back to square one, anybody got a striker spring?
I dont even want it, just want it to work so I can sell/trade it. I just got it for the other stuff that cxame with it.
I think there is a lesson in this. Git yer hammer Joe!
BIC/BS

fourarmed
09-26-2006, 06:34 PM
Sounds like you may have given them too much information. Just call and tell them you need a striker spring and pin. Oh, and don't talk to the person who answers, ask for parts. Always works for me. I regularly order striker and hammer springs.

StarMetal
09-26-2006, 07:24 PM
Boy Daniel, sounds like you may need that hammer. You know Ruger hounded me to send in my old model Blackhawk. They even sent me a shipping box. I said noway, I don't want no stinkin transferr bar system in my fine old model.

Joe

44man
09-26-2006, 11:19 PM
I hated the stupid Contender! Get a perfect hold on a ram and "click". Have to open the dumb thing and slam it shut before it would cock again. Wouldn't be much fun if you had a big griz in your sights!

versifier
09-27-2006, 11:40 AM
IMO, anyone hunting dangerous game with a single shot is starting out at least one sandwitch short of a picnic.
I'd do as fourarmed suggested and just ask for parts. The CS phone answerers are salespeople and have their own priorities, which are mostly separating you from your $. The only info they need are which parts you want. (Even if you sent it in, they would evaluate it themselves, regardless of what you told them. They don't know that you have a clue, and as most that call them really don't, they can't afford to take a chance.) But, if you just tell them what parts you need, then they will assume you know what you're doing and send them out to you.