40s&w

[JCools]

hello recently purchased a Lee 401TL 175GR SWC. And have tite group powder.Was looking for load data and this is what they emailed me"Unfortunately, we do not publish data for lead bullets in the 40 S&W. Our lab testing shows that lead bullets tend to give higher than desired pressures in the 40 S&W. This is different from every other cartridge we have ever tested."any suggestions?

[lwknight]

I can only tell you that the higher pressure thing sounds like lawyer speak ( total bunk) to me.
I have experienced higher velocities and lower pressure signs with the same charge in cast compared to jacketed bullets. I think that bore friction is a major player here.

Sorry , I don't load 40S&W or have any experience with it.

[geargnasher]

I do load for the .40 and do have experience with it. Also have experience with Titegroup. The thing almost everybody misses about loading for cast boolits in the .40 S&W is the operating pressures it is designed for. In automatics particularly, one usually needs to load in the ballpark of factory ammo for reliable functioning, and that means slow powders, good lube, and hard boolits. The thing really needs gas checks. Note that the slow powder and hard boolit recommendation is not the usual thing I do or get good results with, but this caliber is unique.

Titegroup will work, use current Lyman or Hodgdon data for starting loads, but don't expect to have good results if you push it too hard. Titegroup builds pressure FAST and tends to skid softer boolits causing blowby and leading.

If you're shooting a Glock you should do a little research on the subject to have an idea of what you need to look out for.

Gear

[shootingbuff]

I do load for the .40 and do have experience with it. Also have experience with Titegroup. The thing almost everybody misses about loading for cast boolits in the .40 S&W is the operating pressures it is designed for. In automatics particularly, one usually needs to load in the ballpark of factory ammo for reliable functioning, and that means slow powders, good lube, and hard boolits. The thing really needs gas checks. Note that the slow powder and hard boolit recommendation is not the usual thing I do or get good results with, but this caliber is unique.

Titegroup will work, use current Lyman or Hodgdon data for starting loads, but don't expect to have good results if you push it too hard. Titegroup builds pressure FAST and tends to skid softer boolits causing blowby and leading.

If you're shooting a Glock you should do a little research on the subject to have an idea of what you need to look out for.

Gear

The 40 is loaded to the same pressure as the 9x19. One must always ensure functioning. In a Glock you can go slow even with the factory recoil spring. If one wants to shoot lite loads but the pistol wont function then just change out the recoil spring - even I can do that :grin:

pc out

sb

[Frozone]

Try 3.2 to start and top out at 4.0. COL 1.135 I have the best luck with ACWW at 3.6g.
Watch for leading, you may need to water drop and use the higher end load.

[noylj]

What is the interest in using very fast powders in the .40S&W?
All I can say is that from my experience, .40 can be real spooky and I have seen really sharp spikes in pressure with TiteGroup and Clays, and very poor accuracy with AA2 and WST. Best powders for light loads so far in my guns are AA5, WSL, and Power Pistol, and AA5 has shown some spikiness also. I have no idea why the .40 is so spooky, but I wish the case web was thicker.
Here is a compilation of load data from various manuals:
Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Start/Max PowerFactor COL
swagedL-SWC 180 TiteGroup 2.1 750 Start 135
L-SWC 180 TiteGroup 2.9 696 125 1.135
L-SWC 180 TiteGroup 2.9 724 130 1.135
L-RNFP 177 TiteGroup 4.5 972 172
RCBS 40-180-CMRNFP 180 TiteGroup 4.5 991 178
swagedL-SWC 180 TiteGroup 4.8 950 Max 171
I would work up to 4.5gn VERY CAREFULLY, and if the gun cycles with 3.0-3.5gn, I would stop right there.

[geargnasher]

The 40 is loaded to the same pressure as the 9x19. One must always ensure functioning. In a Glock you can go slow even with the factory recoil spring. If one wants to shoot lite loads but the pistol wont function then just change out the recoil spring - even I can do that :grin:

pc out

sb

You obviously don't own an M&P.

Gear

[geargnasher]

What is the interest in using very fast powders in the .40S&W?
All I can say is that from my experience, .40 can be real spooky and I have seen really sharp spikes in pressure with TiteGroup and Clays, and very poor accuracy with AA2 and WST. Best powders for light loads so far in my guns are AA5, WSL, and Power Pistol, and AA5 has shown some spikiness also. I have no idea why the .40 is so spooky, but I wish the case web was thicker.


I don't know what the interest is in super-fast powders in the .40 except for habit. People just don't get that cartridge. Now if I handed the same people a .44 Magnum they'd be hollering for gas checks, 25 bhn boolits, and a casefull of Winchester .296 with Magnum primers. Granted the .40 S&W is no .44, but it certainly does operate at very high pressures and fast powders don't do cast boolits any good at those kinds of pressures.

Now if you shoot jacketed bullets in the .40, you can get some really good performance from fast powders, although I still don't prefer them.

If you're wishing the case web was thicker, sell your Glock. I wouldn't shoot a Glock .40 ever, no matter what it was loaded with. I've de-Glocked too many cases to ever believe they are safe at factory pressures, and all the books I have that contain .40 data warn against overpowering the Glock "lack of" chamber.

Gear

[Doby45]

If you're wishing the case web was thicker, sell your Glock. I wouldn't shoot a Glock .40 ever, no matter what it was loaded with. I've de-Glocked too many cases to ever believe they are safe at factory pressures, and all the books I have that contain .40 data warn against overpowering the Glock "lack of" chamber.

Gear

Awwww now, that is just sad. The only Glocks that experienced the lack of chamber support were the first Gen. I would put my second or third gen Glocks up against any other handgun when it comes to full support of the chamber. This is simply another one of "those" things that people have ran with because saying something is Glocked shows you might know something about handguns. That last sentence was not directed at you Gear in any way. I know you know your stuff.

But, my H&K USP40 had less chamber support than my Gen2 G22. There are other handguns with poor chamber support but once again the whole "It is Glocked" stuff is enjoyed by too many people. The old saying of tell a lie long enough and people will believe it comes into play here.

The picture below is my stock G23 barrel and my Storm Lake barrel. As you can see, I got the Storm Lake for the rifling, NOT for more chamber support.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/Doby45/Mobile/b27aa57a.jpg

[randyrat]

That Storm barrel has a heck of a Glock Smile....
I shot the 40 a bunch and I skidded a bunch of boolits over the first inch or two of riffling before I found the right combo of powder and hardness. Then I traded the gun off for another 40..Only to start all over again. Then I settled down shooting the 45 acp most of the time.
Short story....Good luck with the 40, and when you find the right combo that works keep that pistol.

A 165 gr lead boolit with a Gas Check be sweet for the 40. It would save a lot of headaches.

[sqlbullet]

First off, I don't load 40 myself. I load it's dad, 10mm. I shoot the exact same bullet, Lee 175 gr SWC TL. I lube with 45/45/10.

I have no issues with using a faster powder. I use Unique as my go to practice powder. I always just use the jacketed data, and work up. In general I see faster velocities, and fewer pressure signs.

I do switch to slower powders (Blue Dot, Power Pistol, AA#9) for max velocity loads.

I have a friend who recently started loading for his Ruger in 40, and now his XD in 40. He uses Unique and has been very happy. I would not hesitate at all with my gun to start with 4.6 grains of titegroup and work up to a max of 5.1 grains. This is the load from their site for 165 grain bullets.

Be sure about bullet fit! Slug that bore, because light loads and hard undersized bullets will lead!

[Bwana]

OK. For the umphteenth time, many thousands of 175gr Lee cast bullets through my stock G23 bbl. No leading to speak of. My load uses 3.5gr of Tite Group.
Water dropped ww bullets sized to .401 with my lube, 45% beeswax, 45%parrafin, and 10% vasoline. I load mine to 1.1" oal and I use WSPM primers. I prefer R-P cases because of their thinner walls; but, any will do. I crimp in a Lee Factory crimp die. They run about 135 PF. It is the load I use for USSPA.
I bump up the powder to 4.0gr when I am shooting them out of my G20 with the Wolf conversion bbl. I have never had any pressure spikes even in 100+ degree temps.

[josper]

I cast lee 175gr TC,lubed with Jakes moly cresen lube.I used 6.0 gr power pistol. For the bullets I used 3#ww -1# linotype sized to .401 My handgun is a S&W sigma .40S&W. When I crimped the first one with the lee factory crimper I pulled the bullet and measured it and it was still .401 so I loaded 50 rds to try. After reading numorus post about the .40 I was not expecting much but to my surprise they functioned well and grouped as good as any factory load. when I got home I broke it down to clean .I used a patch soked with hoppies benchreast solvent. then used two dry patches and it was like new. somtimes you just have a lot of luck.

[geargnasher]

Awwww now, that is just sad. The only Glocks that experienced the lack of chamber support were the first Gen. I would put my second or third gen Glocks up against any other handgun when it comes to full support of the chamber. This is simply another one of "those" things that people have ran with because saying something is Glocked shows you might know something about handguns. That last sentence was not directed at you Gear in any way. I know you know your stuff.

But, my H&K USP40 had less chamber support than my Gen2 G22. There are other handguns with poor chamber support but once again the whole "It is Glocked" stuff is enjoyed by too many people. The old saying of tell a lie long enough and people will believe it comes into play here.

The picture below is my stock G23 barrel and my Storm Lake barrel. As you can see, I got the Storm Lake for the rifling, NOT for more chamber support.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/Doby45/Mobile/b27aa57a.jpg

Nice pic, that's a helluva lot better than the gaping maw the "1st Generation" guns had. I have several thousand rounds of Speer 1F brass that went through a bunch of old duty-issue PD Glocks, and I found out how to make a push-through sizer out of the Lee FCD and a .401" Lee sizer rod and make cartridges out of them again. The bulges were obscene, and I have had some of that brass split open after two-three reloads at moderate pressures in the area of the previous bulges. Now it's load, fire, recycle. The M&P and XDM don't seem to bulge the cases like some of the Glocks do, even when loaded very, very hot.

Gear

[shootingbuff]

You obviously don't own an M&P.

Gear

Nope, know a few that do and know those that know others.who do ;-)

So are you saying M&Ps don't like to go lite? I don't know. those I know have their M&Ps in 9x19.

sb

[geargnasher]

Nope, know a few that do and know those that know others.who do ;-)

So are you saying M&Ps don't like to go lite? I don't know. those I know have their M&Ps in 9x19.

sb

I realize you don't know, like I didn't know about the improved chambers in third-generation Glocks that Doby pointed out. Looks like you and I will both learn something new from this thread. You said this:

"If one wants to shoot lite loads but the pistol wont function then just change out the recoil spring - even I can do that"

Well, as far as I've researched, if you happen to load for a S&W M&P .40 like I do, this isn't true. You can't go grab a different slide spring from Brownell's or Midway to tune up or down, cuz there's only one, and it's the one that came with the gun. It has a blue paint mark on it, and although it isn't a one-trick pony, it can only operate within a certain power range. It does what it is made to do exceptionally well, and that is to function with factory ammo. Hopefully this has or will change soon, maybe the performance center has something they didn't tell me about. So for now I have to load more than popcorn fart loads to make the thing work, unlike some other platforms that have been around for a while and enjoy broad aftermarket parts support for a diverse range of uses.

If you want to load down the .40 with fast powder that's just fine, you will probably have an easier time getting accuracy without leading, but if you push things up to their potential, you'll find very quickly that certain approaches work better than others with this very finicky cartridge.

Believe me, I'd really love to get a .40 in a 1911 platform with a double-stack magazine because I could tune it like a piano, but for now I'll have to keep dreamin'.

Gear

[Bwana]

"Well, as far as I've researched, if you happen to load for a S&W M&P .40 like I do, this isn't true. You can't go grab a different slide spring from Brownell's or Midway to tune up or down, cuz there's only one, and it's the one that came with the gun."

This is simply not true. Look here.

http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/SMITH%20%26%20WESSON/M%26P%20SERIES%20-%209mm,%20.40S%26W,%20.357%20SIG/cID1/mID58/dID262

[shootingbuff]

I realize you don't know, like I didn't know about the improved chambers in third-generation Glocks that Doby pointed out. Looks like you and I will both learn something new from this thread. You said this:

"If one wants to shoot lite loads but the pistol wont function then just change out the recoil spring - even I can do that"

Well, as far as I've researched, if you happen to load for a S&W M&P .40 like I do, this isn't true. You can't go grab a different slide spring from Brownell's or Midway to tune up or down, cuz there's only one, and it's the one that came with the gun. It has a blue paint mark on it, and although it isn't a one-trick pony, it can only operate within a certain power range. It does what it is made to do exceptionally well, and that is to function with factory ammo. Hopefully this has or will change soon, maybe the performance center has something they didn't tell me about. So for now I have to load more than popcorn fart loads to make the thing work, unlike some other platforms that have been around for a while and enjoy broad aftermarket parts support for a diverse range of uses.

If you want to load down the .40 with fast powder that's just fine, you will probably have an easier time getting accuracy without leading, but if you push things up to their potential, you'll find very quickly that certain approaches work better than others with this very finicky cartridge.

Believe me, I'd really love to get a .40 in a 1911 platform with a double-stack magazine because I could tune it like a piano, but for now I'll have to keep dreamin'.

Gear

Thanks for the detailed response. I think you will find the post above mine of interest.

sb

[geargnasher]

HOT DAMN! Thanks for the link Bwana, looks like I'll have to change the guide rod out, too, since STILL they can't just make a stock replacement in a little different rate.

BTW, I noticed that you're 3.5 grain Titegroup load is only going to be running at about 775 fps, so like i've said 'till I'm blue in the face on this forum, anyone can load the .40 with pretty good success using fast powders and light charges provided the gun will cycle. That seems to include a lot of stock, Glock barrels, too. At that speed, you're probably developing less than 15K CUP, and that's in the .45 ACP operating range, which is a piece of cake to make work well. Now, to make the 175 grain boolit reach it's full potential for power in this platform, equaling jacketed factory performance of 1000+ fps, you will need to add enough Titegroup to cause serious problems with gun integrity. That's the reason I insist on slow powders and harder boolits when loading this thing to factory velocities, the pressures are in the mid-to-upper twenties on the Copper scale. If I were to shoot light-duty competition ammo a lot, I'd sure do what you're doing because slow powders don't work so well at those low pressures and velocities.

Gear

[JRR]

I've had superb results using a medium powder such as Herco and water dropped boolits of .401. Generally speaking powders in the Herco, AA7 to Bluedot speed work very well right up to maximum speeds. Load as long as functioning permits.
Jeff

[geargnasher]

I've had superb results using a medium powder such as Herco and water dropped boolits of .401. Generally speaking powders in the Herco, AA7 to Bluedot speed work very well right up to maximum speeds. Load as long as functioning permits.
Jeff

Herco, BD, and AA7 are not really medium powders, they are more on the slow end of the pistol powder scale, and I can attest to Herco and BD working very well in the .40, although the Herco is a bit too bulky. BD, HS6, and Longshot are my faves for getting the boolit up to higher speeds, and BHN of at least 18, although 10 BHN will do for under 800 fps just fine so long as your boolits don't get squeezed to .399" when seated in the cases.

Gear

[Doby45]

as your boolits don't get squeezed to .399" when seated in the cases.

Gear

Which I know for a fact yours don't. [smilie=p: And for the record mine don't either.. ;)

[geargnasher]

Which I know for a fact yours don't. [smilie=p: And for the record mine don't either.. ;)

That's cuz we use the same Magic.:holysheep

Gear

[XWrench3]

i have been using between 3.1g and 4.0 g of titegroup in my 40 s&w with 175 and 180 grain boolits. 3.1 is about as low as i can go and still have the action cycle reliably. this is in a taurus 24/7 pistol. i would encourage you to start with the 3.1 and work up from there. i hope this helps you out.

[josper]

the lyman reloading manual has data for some cast bulits in .40S&W and thay are very conservative.