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mparks
09-21-2006, 08:51 PM
LBT 280gr WFN GC sized .4525. W-W alloy. 50/50 lube.

Ruger Bisley .45 7 1/2"

bore = .4518
cylinders = .4525

10.8gr Unique
WLP primer
chrono'd 1050fps

Shooting pretty good for me. Under 2" at 25 yards. Nice mild, easy to shoot load.

The question I have is about the gas checks. This is my first GC mould. I dug one of the bullets out of my backstop and it looks like there is lead being blown back over the check. There was some slight leading visable just forward of the forcing cone after 30 rounds or so. Accuracy didn't seem to fall off at all.

Here the bullet. Is the lead on the check normal? Seems like it's not "checking gas" too well if lead is getting on it.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j233/225_bailey/280wfn.jpg

StarMetal
09-21-2006, 09:05 PM
The gascheck's job is to seal powder gases from getting past the bullet base and the secondary job is to scrape the bore of any lead or fouling that might have accumulated. How can you say it's not doing it's job when it's the last part of the bullet. In other words there is not bullet, thus lead, behind it. How do you suppose lead got on it? I would think the gascheck is scraping lead out of your bore and you already said you had alittle leading. I've recovered alot of bullets that have lead on the gascheck and I've also recovered a bigger amount of bullets where the gaschecks didn't have any lead at all on them. When I got my loads perfected the checks were clean of lead. I'd say you're on the verge of that load shooting leadless.

That's not exactly a mild load. In fact in the old #9 Speer manual that's near maximun for a 45 Colt only out of a Ruger or TC. Most recommended loads with Unique for Colt brand single action, and alot of clones, isn't above 8.0 to 8.5. For Bisley I'd say it's about a medium load, maybe a tad higher, but that is for Unique. There are better powders to push that bullet faster. So with all that said, I believe your gaschecks done half decent.

Joe

mparks
09-21-2006, 09:37 PM
I guess I was thinking backwards in my assesment of the gas check. Thanks for the info.

44man
09-22-2006, 12:12 AM
I have to agree with Joe, that is a hot load for Unique. If you want to shoot that fast, go to a slower powder. Next I would change lubes, Felix lube might stop the leading. I have never had any luck with anything with Alox in it.

David R
09-22-2006, 06:20 AM
Try 9.0 of unique, its my best load and many others. I don't use gas checks.

David

StarMetal
09-22-2006, 07:07 AM
Now David is talking, 9.0 grs of Unique is my all time long running favorite for the 45 Colt.

Joe

Bass Ackward
09-22-2006, 07:14 AM
Your bullet is talking to you. What it says is that leading is fairly substancial and that it is probably occuring in the forcing cone area. You could have a rough area in your forcing cone that is scraping off lead as it sizes down your bullet. I just cleaned up a cone on one of mine that I was mis-diagnosing for the longest showing the same results. It was pure death on PB bullets.

What you need to realize is that LBT cuts his groove sizes for slipery lubes like his. 50/50 Alox isn't a slipery lube. So my recommendation would be to cut the load and or change lube.

If your forcing cone is rough (circular rings from the cutter) .... and you don't have a method to clean it up, you will also improve results (less leading) by sizing closer to bore until it smooths up on it's own. Another trick would be to coat your bullets with Lee Liquid Alox as a second lube for awhile until the bullets smooth up the cone enough. If you can dust them with mica after all of that, it will polish a beautiful finish for ya.

And your load is a little hot. Your going to notice that in brass life fairly soon.

arkypete
09-22-2006, 08:21 AM
To what size do you size the bullet?
Jim

mparks
09-22-2006, 08:52 AM
To what size do you size the bullet?
Jim

I have a .452 Lyman sizing die. I run the bullet on my Lyman 450 as deep as possible to not get lube in the crimp groove and the bullet mics .4525 at the widest point. I can probably get them down to .452 if I let lube into the crimp groove.

Buckshot
09-22-2006, 10:33 AM
...............Actually if your accuracy is still good after 30 rounds, any leading you see is being picked up and re-laid by each new slug. Leading in or just after the forcing cone usually means an alloy or sizing problem. Leading toward the end of the barrel is usually indicative of lube issues.

Granted you have a GC on the slug, and that may be saving you from what would otherwise be a painful experience with a same alloy slug of PB design. You have a chamber mouth of .4525" and a groove of .4518". Getting right down to it that's a +.0007" difference, or .00035" all around the boolit if the fit was perfect. Since in your excellent photo I see no gas cutting, the boolit MUST be sealing.

So my theory is that you need to harden that slug up just a tad and see if your leading doesn't go away. The GC is doing what it's supposed to do.

..............Buckshot

mparks
09-22-2006, 10:52 AM
Thanks for all the great info guys. I really appreciate it.


I'll try some harder slugs and see where that gets me. I have some loaded with a lighter charge and I'll shoot 30 or so of those and see what leading looks like. I think it was 9.8gr Unique w/the same 280gr bullet for about 950fps. That would be plenty for my needs.

I see very little leading with a Lyman 262gr 454424 sized the same to .4525 a charge of 9.8gr Unique. That is a load I've shot a lot through this gun with accuracy running around 3" @ 25 for me.

Bass Ackward
09-22-2006, 02:41 PM
I have a .452 Lyman sizing die. I run the bullet on my Lyman 450 as deep as possible to not get lube in the crimp groove and the bullet mics .4525 at the widest point. I can probably get them down to .452 if I let lube into the crimp groove.


Mr Parks,

You can size in a lubrisizer without lubing anything. Then adjust up the die for a second pass when you apply the lube. Don't do 5000 at once. Try 20 or 30 and see what happens. But you can also take out the stem and use a flat punch, turn your bullets upside down and push your bullets all the way through the die using other bullets one right on top of another. Sometimes that will get you another .0005. You just have to place your hand under the bottom to keep them from dropping on the floor. There are many ways to .... cheat. And if you can't win fair, .... cheat.

I am actually shooting .430 now in a .4305 bore that is slightly over .431 at the cone. A definate no no by some standards. But it seems to keep the LLA on the bullets better. Then after they are lubed and dusted, they are @ .431. A buddy has me trying this as a method to using LLA as a sole lube. He says the secret to making it work, is staying undersize on your conventinal lubed bullet designs so you have some left when it gets to the muzzle. It's working for him, so I am experimenting again and so far, for me too.

Clearly, you should be fine at 1050fps with ACWW even with a PB bullet, little alone a GC, once you get everything smoothed out.

StarMetal
09-22-2006, 03:33 PM
I disagree with John alittle bit. First some dies tend to make bullets stick without lube. Not many, but some. Second it takes alot of force to push a bullet through that die, depending on the bullet caliber and your alloy, That's die is tight all the ways through except for the mouth, which is flared. So, what I'm saying is when you put the next bullet in there atop the one that's in the die, it may flatten the nose of the bullet in the die and worse may even fatten the nose body. That's not good if it's a borerider type and the nose already fits the barrel correctly. You'll notice on Lee push through sizer dies for use in a reloading press are not tight all the way through. Actually there is very little area that actually does the priming.

I must be lucky. I've had no luber/sizer problems that others report here like having to fill some of the die lube holes in with shot, or lots of lube under the bullet base, etc. So I can't imagine you not being able to get your bullet far enough into the die to size. Take in concideration to that a die might say, for an example, .452 but whey you mike the bullet it may be bigger or smaller. They don't gaurantee those sizer dies. Also alloy has springback. Our example die might very well be dead on .452, but the alloy may let the bullet spring back to say .4525.

Joe

44man
09-22-2006, 03:38 PM
I would be shooting throat size boolits, Felix lube and hard lead with 296.

mparks
09-22-2006, 11:12 PM
Thanks again guys.

I ran some through the sizer a little deeper with the lube pressure backed off and got them down to .4520. No issues with sticking bullets or anything.

Loaded up 50 with 9.8gr Unique to try for accuracy and leading. I've already got some of these loaded up sized .4525 to test against to see if I can tell any difference.

mparks
09-23-2006, 02:46 PM
Shot 50 rounds of 280gr LBT WFN GC sized down to .452 in front of 9.8gr Unique. No leading after all 50. Shot most of them from off hand and sitting to get ready for deer season but I did shoot one good group from the bench at 25 yards:

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j233/225_bailey/280wfn_9.jpg

I also dug out a few of the bullets and noticed there was a lot less lead on the check. Here is a side by side comparison from the bullet from above. The one on the left was sized .4525 w/10.8gr Unique. The one on the right was sized .452 with 9.8gr Unique:

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j233/225_bailey/gas_checks.jpg

I still had 20 or so of 9.8gr Unique and sized .4525. I did see the leading in the forcing cone after firing these.

So, sizing down to .452 from .4525 eliminated the leading in the forcing cone. Not sure what would happen with 10.8gr Unique and the bullet sized .452 but I don't care either. 9.8gr gives 950fps and that should be plenty for Michigan whitetails IMO.

Thanks for the info guys! I'm not done tweaking yet and you guys have taught me a lot.

Bass Ackward
09-23-2006, 03:37 PM
I still had 20 or so of 9.8gr Unique and sized .4525. I did see the leading in the forcing cone after firing these.


Isn't that something how .0005 makes that much difference? I still believe that a couple hundred rounds with the bullets coated with LLA and motor mica, that you will be able to go back to the .4525 bullets and avoid the extra sizing effort. Or you can just get one of those Tubbs fire lap kits from Midway and polish that sucker up quick! Six of one, half a dozen of another.

But it seems that load does work with .452 bullets. Now you might move up to Blue Dot or 2400 and the .4525 bullets might work like a champ. That's how sensitive and fickle this game can be.

If anyone had ever told me that I could shoot under bore sized bullets with LLA and make them work, I would have called them a lier. Now I have egg on face right right along with a smile. Seems I can now do up to 1100 fps with PB 14 BHN and not lead. By that I mean that you can look in the bore from any end or angle you want, run patch after patch, brush as many times as you desire and you won't be able to produce as much as a shiney flake. Over that and you (me anyway) are screwed again as leading begins. But this is a major break through for me. This increases my production rate while minimizing steps and effort considerably for what I call practical loads for plinking.

Good shooting and good luck Mr. Parks! Looks like a winner!