Role of cast bullet in hunting

[roysha]

I got into a discussion with a fellow at a gun shop over the weekend in regard to how cast bullets should perform on game. We were discussing the expected action from a typical handgun caliber, not rifles or handguns chambered for rifle calibers (XP-100,TC, Lone Eagle,etc).
His belief was that the bullet should mushroom and act similar to a jacketed bullet. To that end he cast quite soft and used a large HP. He also used the Lyman 2 part bullet from years ago. He mentioned the name but it escapes me at the moment, although I remember when Lyman was making the molds. He said he got all the penetration he needed/wanted using either bullet, (in this case we were talking 44 MAG which is how we got started on the subject), plus a good deal of tissue damage. The bullets rarely exited. He preferred the softer one piece bullet because, he said, he had on occasion seen the soft nose shed off of the two part bullet.

My belief and practice is to use the heaviest bullet the gun will shoot accurately, a very large meplat and as hard as I can cast it. This has proven to penetrate to the vitals and breaking bones, large and small, on it's way. It makes a fairly decent wound channel, often exiting the far side, creating a blood trail if such is needed.

I'm curious as to what you folks think and have experienced. I'm only interested in conventional handgun calibers in regard to this post, since I have not yet graduated to cast bullet rifle hunting yet.

[44man]

I got into a discussion with a fellow at a gun shop over the weekend in regard to how cast bullets should perform on game. We were discussing the expected action from a typical handgun caliber, not rifles or handguns chambered for rifle calibers (XP-100,TC, Lone Eagle,etc).
His belief was that the bullet should mushroom and act similar to a jacketed bullet. To that end he cast quite soft and used a large HP. He also used the Lyman 2 part bullet from years ago. He mentioned the name but it escapes me at the moment, although I remember when Lyman was making the molds. He said he got all the penetration he needed/wanted using either bullet, (in this case we were talking 44 MAG which is how we got started on the subject), plus a good deal of tissue damage. The bullets rarely exited. He preferred the softer one piece bullet because, he said, he had on occasion seen the soft nose shed off of the two part bullet.

My belief and practice is to use the heaviest bullet the gun will shoot accurately, a very large meplat and as hard as I can cast it. This has proven to penetrate to the vitals and breaking bones, large and small, on it's way. It makes a fairly decent wound channel, often exiting the far side, creating a blood trail if such is needed.

I'm curious as to what you folks think and have experienced. I'm only interested in conventional handgun calibers in regard to this post, since I have not yet graduated to cast bullet rifle hunting yet.
Depends 100% on velocity. The .44 and .475 both work fine with hard, heavy boolits. The .45 Colt needs just a little expansion because it is slower but hard works most times, just takes a deer a little longer to die. The 45-70 revolver is too fast and pokes holes with hard boolits so expansion is much better.
Rifles at the higher speeds need expansion and every caliber and velocity will change what works best.
I do not want any boolit to stop in an animal. I want it to do maximum internal damage and exit every time.
Cast is exactly like jacketed where some open too fast and others just poke holes. Work with alloys when on each side of the best velocities for hard. I feel 1300 to 1400 fps is ideal for hard WLN or WFN boolits. The .44 works fine with hard boolits of 300 gr to 330 gr.

[btroj]

While I do not have the experience level of 44man I have no reason to dispute what he said. I have started to cast my hunting bullets a bit softer than I did in the past. I like to water drop them also.
I like to see some ability to expand but I don't want so much expansion that I lose penetration. I like two holes for every shot on a deer.
I like about 50-50 ww and lead water droped for my 45-70 rifle. It will expand some at velocities over 1500 but will stay together and drive deep.
In the end I would tell you to try different things. You will see some results you like, some yup don't. Too man variables to have one clear answer, whi h I am sure you will see from the variety of answers you will get here.

Brad

[Rocky Raab]

The dilemma with any bullet is that it has to perform in three entirely separate environments. It has to fit and function properly in the gun. Then it has to perform in flight. Finally, it has to perform in the game.

Bullet hardness has a lot to do with how the bullet functions in the gun. It has to be soft enough to obturate and seal while in the chamber and the bore, yet hard enough not to strip out in the rifling. (Proper fit is the other parameter, of course.)

In flight, it is bullet shape and weight that determine the trajectory. At ranges inside 100 yards or so this is less an issue than it is for longer distances, but it is still a factor, no matter how minor.

Once the bullet strikes the animal, bullet hardness, weight AND shape have pronounced and important effects. Penetration and expansion almost always have an inverse relationship: if you have lots of one, you will have little of the other. Too much of either is probably detrimental to overall effectiveness. Translated, that means an animal is needlessly lost or suffers.

[white eagle]

now being that we are hunting and not at the bench does leading really become a factor
for one maybe two shots??

[Rocky Raab]

One would assume that the load will be tested and shot frequently enough to be intimately familiar with the sighting, recoil and trajectory, so yes indeed; leading is important.

[TonyM]

For hunting bears up here (AK), the consensus is the harder the cast, the better. Breaking bones is ESSENTIAL, especially if shot taken at 100yrds or less. Other game, such as moose and caribou, you could use a softer boolit, but I prefer the harder cast. I'm not all that worried about expansion, because my goal is break shoulders everytime, no matter what big game (When the shot is possible).

You may wind up damaging a little bit of meat (However, the smaller the channel it leaves, the less damage you'll have, again I believe that translates into harder boolits), but its worth it IMO to ensure you don't lose all the meat (Wounded and got away, got too far away, etc.)

[Larry Gibson]

I had the opportunity as an LEO in NE Oregon to dispatch numerous wounded/injured animals including many deer and elk. I also had the leeway to carry numerous firearms and ammuntion for such. I found with handguns that the correct HP or SP that expanded well with sufficient penetration almsot always killed the animal quicker than any non epxanding bullet including many hard cast bullets, including full WCs at magnum velocity. Penetration through the vitals was the determining factor in quicker killing. It didn't seem to matter much if the bullet exited just so it went through the vitals. (That might be a cosideration if tracking thought) I used 9mms, 38 Specials, .357 Magnums, 41 magnums, .44 Specials, .44 Magnums, .45 ACP, .45 ARs and .45 Colts.

My experience is why I use and recommend a soft cast GC'd HP (correct size is needed for alloy and velocity). With "standard" cartridges with velocities under 900 fps I didn't really find much difference and a hard SWC killed as quick as anything. Standard cartridges with velocities of 900 - 1200 fps a 30-1 or 40-1 lead - tin alloy works very well. With magnum level velocity of 140 - 1500 fps a 16 - 1 lead - tin alloy works very well as does 50/50 WWs/lead.

With a good lube like Javelina, the GC and proper sizing leading was not a problem with a reasonable amount of shots.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

TonyM
I cant totally agree with the harder = better even on our bears. Bears are just flesh and bone not kevlar. Interior bears are not generally that big either like coastal bears can be. I have shot more than a couple bears both black and griz with boolits and none of them have been harder than acww. Most of them have been shot with B00 my Marlin 45/70. I like acww for this but I do like them big. The biggest of the three RCBS designs for the Marlin going about 525gn is what I use. Muzzle velocity is 1550 fps which seems about right for range not more than 100 yards and acww alloy.
I shot one griz with a 500 PP at about bhn 7 or 8 from B00 at hand shaking range. It was a wounded bear that I had to stalk in thick permafrost spruce. The hit was right under the chin with the bear coming on. I found that boolit under the hide on the rump and it expanded to look like a quarter. The Bear's chin hit the ground at the shot stone dead. Now maybe that soft PP would not have been my first choice but thats what was in my gun when I got the call from my neighbor that had just wounded the bear. On the other hand the big RCBS 525gn FNGC in acww is generally what I use if I am going to try for a meat bear.
Where we live the bears eat oats and barley from the farms and if its a good year for berries feeding on grain and fruit the bear meat is very good, that includes griz.

[44man]

now being that we are hunting and not at the bench does leading really become a factor
for one maybe two shots??
Actually, leading does not seem to be an issue at all if the boolit fits. I have shot all kinds of alloys and some of the softer ones do not lead either but if too soft I will have fliers while a boolit that does not fit and too hard can lead the bore. Much too soft for the powder will also lead the bore.
Leading is a strange thing that depends on too many factors from powder speed, etc.
I get zero leading with water dropped WW's but also get zero leading with a 50-50 mix, water dropped or oven hardened.
I just never have a problem with leading and don't know if it is luck or not.
I find accuracy changes quicker with alloys and a PB of 50-50 will just scatter but the same boolit with a gas check is OK but neither will lead my bores.
I will never agree with a soft, under size boolit to expand to obturate. I will never agree with any boolit that skids the rifling or slumps.
I will forever feel that the shooter has to figure things out for himself and it is so hard to offer suggestions.
You just do not have to have leading, poor accuracy or failures on game with cast boolits.
Every caliber and velocity needs a different treatment and I can't help with all of them since I am in the little space of revolvers and muzzle loaders.

[cbrick]

I just never have a problem with leading and don't know if it is luck or not.


Nope, not luck at all. You answered this yourself.

The bullet fits the firearm. A proper fitting bullet will cover up many wrongs including too hard or too soft.

You also answered the question of if it's not leading can the allloy and alloy BHN make a difference. Yep, once you have a proper fit you can tweek accuracy by making the alloy match the pressure, burn rate, firearm dimensions etc.

First and foremost with handgun or rifle is fit. Fit rules.

Rick

[TonyM]

TonyM
I cant totally agree with the harder = better even on our bears. Bears are just flesh and bone not kevlar. Interior bears are not generally that big either like coastal bears can be. I have shot more than a couple bears both black and griz with boolits and none of them have been harder than acww. Most of them have been shot with B00 my Marlin 45/70. I like acww for this but I do like them big. The biggest of the three RCBS designs for the Marlin going about 525gn is what I use. Muzzle velocity is 1550 fps which seems about right for range not more than 100 yards and acww alloy.
I shot one griz with a 500 PP at about bhn 7 or 8 from B00 at hand shaking range. It was a wounded bear that I had to stalk in thick permafrost spruce. The hit was right under the chin with the bear coming on. I found that boolit under the hide on the rump and it expanded to look like a quarter. The Bear's chin hit the ground at the shot stone dead. Now maybe that soft PP would not have been my first choice but thats what was in my gun when I got the call from my neighbor that had just wounded the bear. On the other hand the big RCBS 525gn FNGC in acww is generally what I use if I am going to try for a meat bear.
Where we live the bears eat oats and barley from the farms and if its a good year for berries feeding on grain and fruit the bear meat is very good, that includes griz.

I think the reason why I (And most others that I hunt with) prefer a harder boolit, is because of the style/preference of which we hunt. We are not interested so much in a wound channel, as we are bone breaking ability. Although they are not made of kevlar, they do have a tendency to withstand what may commonly kill another animal of similar size.

The whole idea is to break atleast one, preferably both shoulders, and immobilize the animal. If it's not dead, you can finish it with your revolver. The concern with a softer boolit becomes, you wind up with your quarter round size boolit, flush up against the shoulder... not penetrating/breaking it.

Others who do not use the shoulder as a point of impact, would probably benefit from a softer boolit, because they may be looking for a boolit to do as much damage in the channel as possible... and a hard boolit obviously would not fit the bill for this.

I think it comes down to hunting style I guess. I got stuck in the dark, in the brush, on the side of Knik Glacier a few years ago, with what I was certain was a sow and 3 cubs (I had seen them earlier in the day). I could hear them, worse, I could smell whatever carcase they had been on. Walking out of that brush, with about a 10ft visibility in the thicket at best, I would not want a soft boolit. If I need to shoot through a tree... or through a thick patch of alder, I don't want that boolit to lose all of its structural integrity before it gets to the animal.

[idahoron]

Well I am a big believer of cast bullets and Muzzleloader hunting. I use a Paper Patched 500 S&W bullet out of a LEE C-501-440-RF mould. I have played with hardness for accuracy. My rifle and my friends rifles all like the hardness to be just under 8 BHN. On my cabin tree tester I shoot for hardness on the dial of .032 to .038 for my bullets. I shot a large mule deer buck last year with that bullet at 117 yards. The bullet smoked right through. I shot an antelope with that same bullet. Again smoked right through from the flank and out the shoulder. My friend has also shot a deer and an antelope with these bullets. The deer was shot through the front shoulder and the bullet exited out the ham in the back. I used Hornady Great plains bullets for years. They open up ( mushroom ) and I have found several of them in deer. Most of the deer I shot with them needed at least one more hit to finish them off. With this paper patched 500 S&W bullet I have not needed a second shot. These 500 S&W bullets don’t open up. They PLOW holes in animals like the animals are made of luke warm butter. Ron

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Paperpatch501.jpg

[Rocky Raab]

The only problem with "harder is better" is that even a lead bullet can shatter if it's too hard. Or so I've read - I've never loaded bullets that hard so none of mine ever have. But if guys with the experience of Ed Harris say a too-hard bullet can shatter, I believe them.

[quilbilly]

Life is full of tradeoffs. A year or two ago I did the wet phonebook test on my 32-20 from my T/C Contender. I compared a jacketed 110 gr hollowpoint with a soft lead interior versus my own cast 115 gr gas checked flat nose boolit from a Lee mold which was a medium hard cast. Both with the same powder charge (9.4 gr of 2400).
The JHP penetrated about 9 inches expanding dramatically and left the muzzle at 1250 fps. My own cast flat nose boolit penetrated 17 inches before expanding as well having left the barrel at 1450 fps. This is also where I learned that lubed cast boolits have a lot less friction going down the barrel than jacketed
Test was done at 20 yards
I hope to test a 120 gr round nose CB+GC sometime this winter when I accumulate enough phone books. That should also be interesting.

[Bret4207]

The only problem with "harder is better" is that even a lead bullet can shatter if it's too hard. Or so I've read - I've never loaded bullets that hard so none of mine ever have. But if guys with the experience of Ed Harris say a too-hard bullet can shatter, I believe them.

Rocy, that's one of those things that gets repeated a lot. Done it myself, but I've never seen it. I've gotten alloys that have gone up over 30Bhn. IIRC something like 35 Bhn give or take. When you hit them with a hammer they don't "shatter". They do tend to sort of crack more than a softer alloy. This is with solids. Now a HP might be different. Anyway, when I think on it I'm not sure shatter is really the right word to use to describe what happens, if it really happens. I've never found a shattered boolit or evidence of a shattered boolit. I wonder if anyone has actual experience vs. "my brothers wifes sister in laws dry cleaners sons dogs breeders 2nd cousins uncle works at a gun store said..."

[crabo]

now being that we are hunting and not at the bench does leading really become a factor
for one maybe two shots??

I think it makes a difference if you want to practice with the load you hunt with. Changing things can often change the point of impact. I like working up a load and sticking with it when I practice and hunt.

[44man]

Well I am a big believer of cast bullets and Muzzleloader hunting. I use a Paper Patched 500 S&W bullet out of a LEE C-501-440-RF mould. I have played with hardness for accuracy. My rifle and my friends rifles all like the hardness to be just under 8 BHN. On my cabin tree tester I shoot for hardness on the dial of .032 to .038 for my bullets. I shot a large mule deer buck last year with that bullet at 117 yards. The bullet smoked right through. I shot an antelope with that same bullet. Again smoked right through from the flank and out the shoulder. My friend has also shot a deer and an antelope with these bullets. The deer was shot through the front shoulder and the bullet exited out the ham in the back. I used Hornady Great plains bullets for years. They open up ( mushroom ) and I have found several of them in deer. Most of the deer I shot with them needed at least one more hit to finish them off. With this paper patched 500 S&W bullet I have not needed a second shot. These 500 S&W bullets don’t open up. They PLOW holes in animals like the animals are made of luke warm butter. Ron

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Paperpatch501.jpg
This is very true. At the right velocity and punch from the powder, pure lead is as good as it gets. But it is unrealistic to shoot from a .44 or high power rifle.
I have killed a lot of deer with my Ruger Old Army with round balls, the last jumped my fence and fell dead, 10 feet! Never recovered a ball from ANY muzzle loader. I have killed hundreds of deer with a .45 flintlock, .50 and .54, all with round balls. There is just nothing that beats them.
You just can't shoot soft from most guns unless you go to BP in the .44 or .45, then they would do as good. Smokeless is what changes the alloys needed.
The next thing to think about is that a good round ball rifle has rifling .010" deep, not the .003" to .004" of modern guns.
When I want to put a deer in a pile right now, it is my .54 Hawken. They never wiggle!
I LOVE pure lead but it is just not to be with modern guns and powders.

[Dannix]

I'd phots like this Ron that make me want to try paper patching. One of these days. :mrgreen:

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Paperpatch501.jpg

[NVScouter]

I've shattered BH 30 .225 LEE Bator bullets in ground squirrels at around 2,100FPS impact velocity. I dont cast anything else that hard or have that many kills with cast. They are tiny so maybe that has something in it?

I'm not sure if its true shattering or maybe just seperation in the thinner areas really. I know the Lyman Cast bullet book has some info on this. They seem to think its expansion areas that break off at some point if memory serves.

I'm still playing with cast expansion for hunting and am leaning tward the middle for what I shoot so far.

[idahoron]

I'd phots like this Ron that make me want to try paper patching. One of these days. :mrgreen:

If that one makes you want to try it how about these? All the bullets that were used in these pictures were the paper patched C-501-440-RF. Ron

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/500SW3-22-08small.jpg


http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Deer%20hunting/2009buck08-A.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Antelope%202010/9-25-10Lsmall.jpg

[onesonek]

Displacement/tissue damage and penetration. To how and what extent the boolit performs those two task, will open for discussion or in some cases,,,arguement untill the end of time around a many a table or campfire

[x101airborne]

i have experimented with hard alloys and have had 44 mag bullets seperate. i dont know wether to call this shattering or not, just the bullet did not survive in one piece going through tough hog bone.

[Bret4207]

"Shatter" sort of implies something like vaporization or firing a marble from your slingshot into ledge rock (don't stand as close as I did if you try this). I wish we had a better descriptor for what happens and more knowledge of just exactly what occurs. Does it simply expand so violently it flies to pieces or does it actually break up? Who knows, not me.