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View Full Version : Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down



waksupi
10-11-2010, 06:55 AM
http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report05.htm

Here is a good description of something I have always had a hard time conveying, especially to younger hunters. Take a look, and see why the whiz bang magnums, with light bullets and high velocity, are not the best thing for hunting.

troy_mclure
10-11-2010, 07:19 AM
if you dont aim for meat you wont damage meat, thats why i like a low lung shot.

Dan Cash
10-11-2010, 07:42 AM
Nice on paper. In practice, Troy Mc has it right but a neck shot is more absolute.

1Shirt
10-11-2010, 08:52 AM
A most excellent article, well worth the read and consideration!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

Jailer
10-11-2010, 09:12 AM
That's why I never take a shot unless it's a clear heart/lung shot. I never quite understood all these guys that say to "put it on the front shoulder". Why waste good meat.

If you go for a heart/lung shot worst case scenario is you hit a rib straight on and it fragments and shreds the heart and lungs.

Following this I've never had to track a deer. The farthest I've had one run has been about 50 feet and there was nothing left of his heart when I gutted him.

kbstenberg
10-11-2010, 09:47 AM
Jailer i have to diagree with u. Im a shoulder guy. Its visualley exposed so u can put the crosshairs exactly where u want. Its a very large target, an most times u do takeout the vitalls. Even if you are a little high the animal usualley goes down imediatly. So for me its a win win shot.
Yes i do agree i loose some shoulder roast. But other than taking a head or neck shot. Anywhere u intentionally shoot a deer a lot more meat is lost.
An yes if each of us has a spacific shot that consistantly puts an animal down imediatly, i say go ahead.
Keep that silver stream flowing Kevin

onesonek
10-11-2010, 10:40 AM
I have to agree with waksupi and eben here. First off, The only time I when aim for the shoulder is for an anchoring shot where I absolutely didnt want the animal to go anywhere,,,as like down a 600' canyon or near property I wouldn't be allowed on to recover.

As a meat cutter, and when going to school for it, we processed alot of game. I always asked when they came in what they were shot with, and the results.
What I found with high velocity rounds and heart or near heart hits, that about 50% of the time it was systolic (pumping blood out). The results showed when this happened we would find flecks of bloodshot nearly throughout the entire muscle structure. Conclusions were, that while the major arteries could handle the pressure, the smaller vessels would burst, leaving tiny blood clots about half a pinhead size. While it certainly don't hurt the meat, it does give it a stronger irony, minerally flavor.
I have seen elk go 400 yds without a heart shot with 30-06 and 300 mag.. I haven't experienced or witnessed any deer go more than 20-30', if that far when hit with 165 fp out a 30-30. While these 2 old brothers I knew I CO., used nothing but a .35 rem and 250 grs', Sure they hunted in close, but they said they never had elk take more than 2 steps with a broadside lung shot. It is also the reason I believe Veral Smith has something with his formula and wfn's.
As Eben also said in another statement,,, "energy expands the bullet, penetration kills"

With that, I will most always opt for more momentum and less speed.
Yes I still use my 30-06 on deer and elk, but only when I expect to be taking my shot at more 200 yds. Other wise I use a 7BRM or 9.3X74R, and now the .45-70

bigdog454
10-11-2010, 10:46 AM
Worried about meat damage? Then take only head shots! also no blood trail to follow.

waksupi
10-11-2010, 11:59 AM
Well, I am totally against head and neck shots. I have seen too many game animals with jaws shot off, or bullets through the wind pipe. I much prefer through the ribs, into the heart and lung area. No meat loss, and have never had a deer, antelope, or elk go more than 30 yards after being shot.
From my experience of shooting lots of different sized critters, the slower cast bullet generally kills faster than a jacketed bullet.

Jailer
10-11-2010, 12:01 PM
Worried about meat damage? Then take only head shots! also no blood trail to follow.

Too small a target for us "less than stellar" shooters. :oops:

That's why I only take a heart/lung shot when I know I'll kill with one shot. I've never had to track a deer and I don't ever want to lose one because it didn't die quick.

This year should be fun. The 450 Bushmaster is sighted in and ready to go. That should stop a deer no problem. :bigsmyl2:

home in oz
10-11-2010, 12:03 PM
An interesting chart.

I tend to shoot everything in yards, not 100's of yards anyway.

Sensai
10-11-2010, 12:33 PM
I find that the older I get, the slower my boolits get. Just sayin"

TonyM
10-11-2010, 01:52 PM
I'm a shoulder guy as well. Break the shoulders, you ENSURE the animal is not getting away... anything else, and the odds increase dramatically that you COULD lose the animal. Where I come from (As I am sure is the case most places), losing the animal is a BIG no no... espcially a bear or moose... :shock:

MT Gianni
10-11-2010, 07:26 PM
I have never needed to live off solely what I could shoot and been restricted by State Law or available game. I have no problem with breaking the far shoulder and most often shoot for that. If I put one through the heart lung and break a far shoulder on exit i am happy with that amount of lost meat. If I need more meat I am fortunate to live where I can shoot more than one animal legally and they are available.

buck1
10-11-2010, 07:36 PM
Too many folks tend to thing faster bullets make up for poor placement. A shoulder shot wont waste that much meat unless its shot with too fast of a bullet.

RP
10-11-2010, 08:05 PM
I have shot deer with pistols shotguns and rifles from 357 30/30 44 270 30/06 and have found that the larger slower boolits kill faster then the fast smaller ones. I think slower the boolit gives it more time to expand and open up a hole. Oh black powder shooting a 45cal looking at the hole in the deer my son shot after skin was off you could see light out the other side of the deer, He sent me a pic on my phone and I had no problem seeing the light lol.

Uncle R.
10-11-2010, 08:39 PM
My favorite hit on deer is one of those dreaded high-velocity j-words broadside through the ribs just behind the shoulder. I want rapid expansion but a bullet that holds together just enough to give me two holes. For deer I like .30-06 or .308 with 130 or 150 gains. I like .270s with 130 grs. and 7mm Rem with 140 grs. A through-and-through behind the shoulder won't ruin the stew meat - and deer almost always collapse within a step or three. The few that run don't go far - never more than 100 yards or so - typically much less. TWO holes means a big easy blood trail and venison hanging in the shed is pretty much guaranteed.

1Shirt
10-11-2010, 09:09 PM
There is always the factor of the "Weatherby Syndrom" associated with the fast lite blt.
I have always prefered the heavy weights for whatever ctg I was shooting with the exception of varmints. Met Roy Weatherby once, didn't like him or his ego, so openly express a bias in that regard.

I really liked the comparisons with ctgs of the 6.5x55 catagory. My favorite hunting rifle has become my 77 Ruger in 7x57 w/154-175 gr blts. It has taken two elk, eight or nine deer, a zebra, two gemsbuck, a warthog, etc. and is like a third arm to me in the field. It handles 175 cast very well and will stay under 3" at 100 w/vols to 2000, but have never taken a game animal with it and cast. My only cast kill was w/#1 Ruger in 45-70 w/405 Ohas over 26 gr. of 2400, 65 yds, shoulder shot, four legs in the air. I have nothing against shoulder shots, and would rather have an animal on the ground than have a blood trail. Any how differences in opinion are what makes this forum most interesting. If I were woods hunting deer I would as soon have a 30-30 with 170-180 cast, or my 7x57 with 175 cast.
1Shirt:coffee:

HangFireW8
10-11-2010, 09:32 PM
Some good info in that article, but then I get to this part:

"In contrast, I have observed that nearly every animal shot with a 30-06 exhibited excessive meat damage. Here's how we'll put a value on it: On two different occasions, deer shot at about 150 yards had their shoulders completely ruined where the bullet exited."

Well, duh, any bullet through both shoulders is going to ruin a lot of meat. I put a 2200 fps 444 Marlin 265gr through the far shoulder of a deer and guess what, got 3 roasts instead of 4 back from the butcher (first deer, I butcher myself now). Blast a near shoulder and the bone fragments will take out a mess of meat, whether it is a 45/70 or a 460Wby.

My experience with the .30'06 is that I shot two deer, in the same spot, two consecutive years, same load (150gr), same bullet, same angle, same size, one dropped like a sack of bricks the other ran for 50 yards.

In both cases, though, the bullet made a small entry hole, a small exit hole, and blew up the heart/lung area for a sure kill and very little lost meat.

The conclusion I draw from all this about velocity versus meat and Knock Down? None! Too many variables. Know deer anatomy and make a killing shot through as little good meat as possible, using a deer class cartridge, and the rest is so variable I don't worry about it. If you hunt where there is a hunter every 50 yards, you may have to sacrifice a little meat to secure the kill quickly, and I'm not talking about follow-up shots here, I'm talking shoulders or neck (if you know where to find it).

-HF

Bret4207
10-12-2010, 06:39 AM
IME there is a large segment of the hunting population that think the lungs lie somewhere just ahead of the hips...at least judging by the holes in the deer found 2 weeks later in the field.

I know you lose meat, but here's why I often suggest guys consider the shoulder shot, especially those of us lacking Apache blood. Break the shoulders and the animal is down right there. Take a lung shot and you might have a 300 yards tracking job. Unless you have a decent blood trail AND snow on the ground there are a lot of people who will lose that animal.

excess650
10-12-2010, 08:03 AM
I've taken a lot of whitetails, and helped skin and cut lots more. The worst damage I've witnessed was with a 240 Weatherby and 100gr Nosler Partitions just behind the front shoulder. We kept the backstraps and hind quarters. It was the ugliest, most bloodhot mess I've ever seen.

My own have been taken with a (1) 6mm Remington, numerous with 270, 7mm Remington Mag, 30-06, (1)9x57mm with 220gr Speer FN, (1) 38-55 with 280gr GC, (1) 45-70 with 410gr FN, and a couple with 44mag, and (4)12ga sabot slugs.

None that I've ever shot in the neck has taken a step regardless of caliber! The 38-55 shot was a high, just behind the shoulder shot, and the buck simply folded on the spot. It missed the spine, and took the tops of the lungs. The 45-70 shot was solid lungs, but it didn't know it was hit, and I hit it twice more. The last took out the heart. The 44mag shots were close range, both double lung shots, and the first ran about 75 yards. I double-lunged another buck at 50 yards with a Lightfield 12ga sabot with 62cal slug. It lit off as if not touched! A 2nd round as it ran entered the skin at the rear of the ribcage and ended in the neck. Bloodshot? No, but it ran about 75 yards.

As of the past 10 years I've hunted mostly with my Husqvarna Lightweight 30-06. It shot well enough with Remington 180gr Core Lokt (round nose) that I've not tried any other factory rounds, and haven't loaded for it other than cast. It has taken deer every year and not one has needed a 2nd shot. Almost all have been lung/shoulder shots.

Wanna drop'em on the spot? Head, neck, or spine will do it every time if you do your part. Heart and lung shots usually mean they're gonna run, but usually not more than 75 yards. Breaking both front shoulders will drop 'em, but means a lot of damage.

bigted
10-15-2010, 01:59 PM
here is an origanol alaska storie. took a friend on his first moose hunt years ago. he was a crack shot with his winny 270 so i was comfy with him shooting 150 gr factory loads thru it for moose. [ they arnt that hard to kill] besides i had my 375 to back him up in case of bear.

watched the trees move as a bull came lumbering thru the spot we were watching about 100 yds away. out stepped humpy with his 54 inch spread. soon as my friend moved he spotted us and started to whirl and leave so friend shot at what appeared to be the front shoulder as the moose whirled. well yep he shot the front shoulder but the angle was after the moose was turned too far and that 150 gr bullet went into the front shoulder and into the guts and thru them on into the off side hind quarter. the moose fell over about 30 yards from his hit and when we got there he was beltching red foam and thrashing trying to get up again. neck shot stopped everything and the work began.

after cutting off the first shot front shoulder...[ not much damage here ] bagged it and cut off the rear quarter and the backstrap and neck meat that was salvagable. rib meat and turn moose over. [ told ya its a lotsa work ] started with the undamaged front shoulder on the far side and removed it [ wondering where the bullet had gone as i was sure it was going to be here ] and the rest of the neck meat. backstrap and rib meat takes us to the off side rear quarter.

as soo as i cut the skin on this last quarted i knew it was going to be bad. found nothing but bloodshot meat and very bad at that. i cut thru it in all directions and found absolutly nothing to take home in there. [ im talking about 3 or 4 hundred lbs of meat here. all big globs of shredded and pulpy gooo. bone was splintered at the middle of the quarter and smashed and exploded so bad that it contributed to the whole mess.

yep a lil ol 270 winchester shooting 150 gr remington bullets.

opened up the gut cavity to retrieve the tenders and my god what a mess. got the loins out but had to hurry down to a stream to wash the goo off them befor they got damaged beyond repair.

step up to this year with the same hunter...he shot my short barreled 45/70 with my handloads of horn 350 gr rn at around 1600 fps and... with a drawn cow tag ...was able to shoot a cow at around 130 yds.[kinda hard to tell after trudging thru the muskeg but think yards are pretty close]. he shot her thru the near shoulder and lungs as she took a step forward and the bullet came to rest on the off side hide with perfect expansion. DRT !! hardly any damage to the off side shoulder meat and the slow moving bullet went thru the off side bone as well...ate rite up to the hole so to speak.

there is my tale of woe and your welcome to it even theo i never spoke of boolits once. srry but i havnt hunted with a bare boolit yet. dont know why as i have faith that they will act just fine on whatever i choose to shoot. no reasson to think they would not get rite into the boiler on a grizz if needed.

mpmarty
10-15-2010, 03:29 PM
I've shot a bunch of deer in my seventy plus years. Never had to track one, ever. I have used a 7mm Rem. Mag. with Nosler 160 gr partition bullets over 79grs of H-870 and a Federal 215 primer. There has been some meat loss but very little as the damaged meat gets rinsed well and made up for stew meat. I've also shot deer with my Marlin 45/70 and must say there was much less meat damage but I had to be within 150 yards or so to be sure of my shot. I hear a lot about the new magnums and long range shooting. IMHO only a fool shoots deer at extreme ranges. I have been such a fool. My longest shot was on a managed lumber company wood lot where I was hunting with the manager of the lumber company. We walked down a long valley and as we walked three deer paced us up on a ridge to the right of our direction of travel. I told my companion that when we got to the end of the valley and hadn't found any deer that I would shoot the buck in the trio up on the ridge. My friend consulted his plat map and informed me that the range would be a bit over 450 yards and an elevation increase of 800 feet. When we reached the end of the valley without spooking any game I looked up at the ridge and there stood that buck facing us standing perfectly still at the top of the ridge. My 160gr nosler entered his brisket and exited between his shoulder blades flipping him over upside down and killing him instantly. I agree that large slow bullets work well but they are just too darned hard to place precisely at any distance beyond 150 yards.

rbuck351
10-15-2010, 11:50 PM
I hunt primarily moose and use the front shoulder shot if they are near water. A heart lung shot frequently shows no effect for several seconds and if Bullwinkle walks 20/30yds out into a pond or river before tipping over you have just turned a lot of work into a real pita lotta work. The last deer I shot was using a 454 carbine and a double shoulder shot at about 75yds. 300gr jacketed bullet at about 1600 mv and ate right up to the hole. If you insist on using a large cartridge, try a 416 Rem with 400gr bullets. Shoulder shot will drop them in there tracks without a lot of meat damage. It might be a little excessive, but then anything over a 35rem is probably excessive.

nicholst55
10-16-2010, 06:36 AM
IMHO, a shoulder shot is not a guarantee of an anchored deer; seen way too many 3-legged deer running nearly as fast as their peers. I like big, slow bullets for moderate ranges. Once the target gets more than 150-200 yards away, I much prefer a faster, lighter bullet. Not being as good a shot as Billy Dixon, I just can't make myself shoot at deer 500 yards away with my .45-70. Not that 90% of us have any business shooting at a game animal at that distance, anyway!

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen. All else is angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Lloyd Smale
10-16-2010, 07:08 AM
We shoot between 50 and a 100 whitetail a year doing crop damage shooting. Heres my take on it from what ive seen. Everyone bad mouths the mags because they tear up alot of meat. Sure if you put a 300 mag 150 grain cup and core bullet into the shoulder of a broadside deer theres going to be meat damage. But put a 150 out of a 308 or 06 in the same spot and your only going to loose a couple more lbs of meat. Guys claim the premium bullets do less damage because of there stouter construction but that isnt allways the case. Some of the worse meat damage ive seen is with partitions. Take a 257 weatherby for an example. Its a round ive killed a pile of deer with and is a good example because there aint much that shoots any faster. Loaded with a 100 grain cup and core bullet at top speeds and shot into a shoulder it doesnt penetrate that deaply and alot of times it doesnt even bother the off side shoulder. Use that same gun with a 115 partition and you will about allways get complete penetration and more messed up meat. Like i said i shoot alot of deer every year and do use mags alot. I use them because alot of our shots go between 300-400 yards and there just easier to hit with out there. People scoff at the fact that they only shoot 3 or 4 inchs flatter but believe me that can be the differnce in a good hit or a poor one or even a miss. Combine that with the fact that they buck wind better so that few inches can go right or left too. Personaly even if they mess up a few more lbs of meat id rather have a bit more hamburger or even loose a few lbs of meat then to have a deer run off suffering or even have me suffer chaseing it down and dragging it back. I shot three does with the 8mag this year in one day. I was using a 200 patition at about 3000 fps. I shot all three behind the shoulder in the lungs. YOu could put your fist in the exit hole but there wasnt one wasted bit of meat on any of those three deer. Now if i would have been using something like a 308 and the wind would have taken my bullet a few inches to the side or i would have tried to hold high and shot a bit high It would have been differnt. With a gun like that i know i can put the crosshairs on the animal and that bullet is going exactly where i want it to go. Bottom line is that anytime ive seen alot of meat damage in a deer it was because the bullet was put into the meat to begin with. It doesnt matter much what caliber the gun was. Hit a shoulder bone with any jacketed bullet and your going to ruin meat. One of my favorite guns for shooting crop damage is my 300 mag remington 700. Its a tack driver and will shoot easily into 2 inches at 300 yards using a 165 ballistic tip. It gives me the option of taking even head shots at 300 yards and even out to 400 yards with a lung shot puts deer down right now. Precision in shot placement is the best way to avoid meat damage and the mags allow for a more percise shot at longer ranges. At least for anyone that doesnt have the skills of a army sniper.