Need opinions on die size

[wallenba]

I got my new Star lubrisizer today, and the .324 die I requested is actually .3234. My K98 skugged .323. Should I make a fuss about this and have Magma rework it?
It will be used for low velocity low recoil loads only, so I'm wondering. Love the Star, I've got that giddy feeling I had when I bought my first Harley.

[crabo]

You can easily lap it out

[wallenba]

You can easily lap it out

I thought about that, but it's a little out of round already too.

[geargnasher]

For "low velocity, low recoil" I wouldn't worry about the out of round part, just hone it out. You measured a hole to four decimal places, how much out of round are we talking? I sincerely hope you weren't using the "inside" prongs on a set of calipers. I would assume hole gauges and a good micrometer, or perhaps pin gauges and the "daylight" test? I have sizers that are .0005" out of round in .45 caliber, boolits shoot just fine as long as the boolits are big enough for the gun to begin with. Barrels have a funny way of making boolits round, anyway.

Gear

[x101airborne]

My suggestion would be to make them aware of the situation first. They may just apologize and send you a new piece. otherwise tell them that you are going to try it and see. If it works, great!! if not, then they already know the score and will be more willing to work with you. I REALLY doubt you are going to have a problem. To some degree, absolutely nothing is round.

[Bob Krack]

Have you sized a boolit - made with your alloy - to verify the final diameter?
Different alloys of different hardness might "spring back" a little more or a little less than some other alloys.

+1 on all the answers above mine.

Bob

[XWrench3]

I thought about that, but it's a little out of round already too.


send it back, and have them get or make you one that is the correct size, and ROUND! ask them how many rifle barrels that they know of are egg shaped. that is just plain poor quality control. and they have no right to expect you to live with that.

[wallenba]

For "low velocity, low recoil" I wouldn't worry about the out of round part, just hone it out. You measured a hole to four decimal places, how much out of round are we talking? I sincerely hope you weren't using the "inside" prongs on a set of calipers. I would assume hole gauges and a good micrometer, or perhaps pin gauges and the "daylight" test? I have sizers that are .0005" out of round in .45 caliber, boolits shoot just fine as long as the boolits are big enough for the gun to begin with. Barrels have a funny way of making boolits round, anyway.

Gear

Gear, I measured with a digital/mechanical micrometer. It has a window that shows the first three digits ( like an old speedometer) and the last place is like a traditional micrometer. You can see it falls half way between .323 and .324, graduation bar on spindle is on 5, and goes as low as 2. My old mic agrees with it. (.3232-.3235)
Honing it out can't make it any worse I guess.

[BPCR Bill]

I would cast a few bullets with it to see what the boollits come out as. Depending on the alloy, they will come out a tad bit bigger or smaller than the diameter of the mold. Harder boollits will measure up to .001" larger than what the mold measures, softer boolits a bit smaller. Remember you'll have boolit upset on firing as well.

[cbrick]

Odds are quite high that it's your alloy causing the difference between marked die diameter and actual sized diameter. If you sized a bullet cast of exactly the same alloy that Magma used and cast it at exactly the same temp and then measured it at exactly the same room temp you "might" get exactly the same reading with "your" mic that Magma got with theirs.

Out of round? How much are you talking about, 1 or 2 ten thousands of an inch? And with that mic how much of that is a guess? And as Gear said, nothing in real life is perfectly round.

Send it back? Your kidding right?

Odds are also quite high that you will never get a die from any mfg that will exactly match your alloy with the marked die diameter. Many of my dies size "my alloy" up to about .0005" under marked die diameter. If I want say a .309" sized bullet I would order a .310" die because of my alloy and I know it will size a little under. If .309" is what I want in my head and I end up with .3095" that extra .0005" or so is totally irrelevant and meaningless, if anything at all it is better to be a half thousands over than under. As anal as I can get sometimes measuring tenths of a thousands whether bullet diameter or out of round is a stretch even for me.

Rick

[wallenba]

I would cast a few bullets with it to see what the boollits come out as. Depending on the alloy, they will come out a tad bit bigger or smaller than the diameter of the mold. Harder boollits will measure up to .001" larger than what the mold measures, softer boolits a bit smaller. Remember you'll have boolit upset on firing as well.

I am testing this die with boolits I have already cast. Its the sizer not the mold that is undersize. The mold has even been Beagled and drops .326. My alloy is Lyman #2 with a tad of Lino mixed in BHN is 19, and does usually come out .001 over when air dropped.

[wallenba]

Odds are also quite high that you will never get a die from any mfg that will exactly match your alloy with the marked die diameter. Many of my dies size "my alloy" up to about .0005" under marked die diameter. If I want say a .309" sized bullet I would order a .310" die because of my alloy and I know it will size a little under. If .309" is what I want in my head and I end up with .3095" that extra .0005" or so is totally irrelevant and meaningless, if anything at all it is better to be a half thousands over than under. As anal as I can get sometimes measuring tenths of a thousands whether bullet diameter or out of round is a stretch even for me.

Rick

Rick, I would not mind having a die a little big, it's when I get one small that frustrates me. I could even go .325 if I had that die. I suffer from that 'do it right or don't do it' syndrome, and tend to carry it too far sometimes. I just know that what I want is achievable, just trying to find the best way to do it.
I'm in the process of lapping it right now. It's progressing slow as I'm using the "wet or dry sandpaper" on a dowel method. I can live with it being a little out of round, but I want it bigger than bore dia..
Another reason to get it bigger is because it is a Beagled mold and pushing it through the die is a little tougher than I like.

[cbrick]

You have a measured .323" bore and you ordered a .324" die. There is a slim chance that this die would give you a .324" sized bullet with most common alloys. This is a perfect example of why I would order a .325" die and end up with a bullet that is at least .001" over measured bore diameter.

Rick

[wallenba]

Just hit roughly .324+ honing it out. The Beagled boolit is still a bit too snug when sizing. It does not drop out on it's own and has to be pushed out of the die with a follow up boolit which then deforms the gas check:groner: Guess I will go with a .325. the problem now is the Beagled mold has a small area on the bottom driving band that comes out still .323, but the gas check should bring the bottom diameter up. I've been struggling for a while to get a mold that actually drops one that's big enough to use, but not too big to fight with going through the die. I have a Lee C324-175-r thats OK, but seats very deep into the case leaving a big jump to get into the leade.

[cbrick]

It does not drop out on it's own and has to be pushed out of the die with a follow up boolit which then deforms the gas check. :groner:

Here's tip for ya, when sizing nose first in the Star and you need to push a bullet all the way through and don't want to mess up the gas check with the nose of the next bullet simply use a scrap bullet of the same caliber base first, nose up, so that the bullets are base to base, then push the good bullet out without hitting the lube pump on the scrap bullet. You'll not be able to see a mark on the check of the good bullet.

Rick

[wallenba]

Here's tip for ya, when sizing nose first in the Star and you need to push a bullet all the way through and don't want to mess up the gas check with the nose of the next bullet simply use a scrap bullet of the same caliber base first, nose up, so that the bullets are base to base, then push the good bullet out without hitting the lube pump on the scrap bullet. You'll not be able to see a mark on the check of the good bullet.

Rick

Yep, that's what I've been doing. It's just disapointing to have to do all that extra work when I got the Star because of the single step in sizing. I also got it because my Lyman 4500 was bending my longer rifle boolits.
I'm going to try crimping the Lee C324-175-r at the driving band below the top lube groove to get it out more, and to keep the gas check and the lube out of the furnace. That will leave one lube groove and the lubed gap above the check.
Funny,... I tried a Saeco 8mm, a Lyman .324 Loverrin design and the one that ends up working the best is a $19 Lee. Go figure.

[leftiye]

How about a longer pusher through 'er and outer punch? (Nope thas not the last of my bright ideas!)

[wallenba]

How about a longer pusher through 'er and outer punch? (Nope thas not the last of my bright ideas!)

Yep, on my list of things to ask Magma Engineering. It isn't the usual type of punch that RCBS or Lyman uses. It threads in and has a lock nut to set it.

[cbrick]

Yep, on my list of things to ask Magma Engineering. It isn't the usual type of punch that RCBS or Lyman uses. It threads in and has a lock nut to set it.

Here's another tip wallenba, that lock nut, forget it. Adjust your punch to the proper depth and leave it to free-float. Trust me, it won't move on you.

By allowing it to free float it will align itself flat against the bullet base and any possible mis-alignment, off center or cant of the punch won't show up. Your bullet will start out straight without any possibility of starting it off center or canted.

Another tip. I don't just drop bullets into the die. I hold it up against the punch and lower the handle while holding the bullet as long as possible. Perfectly straight, concentric bullets, life is good. :mrgreen:

Yes, Magma will make you longer punches, I have several. A word of caution though, it is possible to get one so long that it sticks down far enough that you cannot place a bullet in the die (long bullets) or screw the punch in any further. Be careful of what you ask for, you may get it. Measure it and ask for a punch length just long enough to push the bullet completely through. Don't ask how I know this. :oops: I use these long punches for bullets that I am sizing and checking but not lubing when they will be oven HT.

Rick

[wallenba]

Here's another tip wallenba, that lock nut, forget it. Adjust your punch to the proper depth and leave it to free-float. Trust me, it won't move on you.

By allowing it to free float it will align itself flat against the bullet base and any possible mis-alignment, off center or cant of the punch won't show up. Your bullet will start out straight without any possibility of starting it off center or canted.

Another tip. I don't just drop bullets into the die. I hold it up against the punch and lower the handle while holding the bullet as long as possible. Perfectly straight, concentric bullets, life is good. :mrgreen:

Yes, Magma will make you longer punches, I have several. A word of caution though, it is possible to get one so long that it sticks down far enough that you cannot place a bullet in the die (long bullets) or screw the punch in any further. Be careful of what you ask for, you may get it. Measure it and ask for a punch length just long enough to push the bullet completely through. Don't ask how I know this. :oops: I use these long punches for bullets that I am sizing and checking but not lubing when they will be oven HT.

Rick
Thanks Rick, useful info. Jam nut will be coming off, and I'm calling Magma Monday.