blut dot in 30-06

[sloddog]

Hi all--Just joined up on the site. It appears I will not live long enough to digest all the info here--but maybe get some help on this one. It is lengthy but please bear with me. I have a '03 Springfield and have shot a few hundred loaded with Win 147gr FMJ in front of 14.0gr Blue Dot/CCI lg rifle. These shot just fine. I then decided to swap out the FMJ for Win 150gr power points. The first 2 went off fine but the 3rd one went click and a split second later I heard the powder sizzle off inside. The bullet jumped just into the barrel and was stuck. I got this one out and figuring the first episode was a fluke, tried again. The second session was exactly as the first--2 good rounds and a click--sizzle--stuck bullet. I took apart the rest of the rounds I had made up and fired the primers off thinking I had a bad bunch. All of them fired and sound just fine. My ?---is blue dot simply not the right choice for a case this size? I started thinking the power point bullet, being the only thing I changed may have caused this but everyone I talked to so far says the bullet should not make a difference. As it sits I am afraid to shoot it until I get a half way decent theory to my issue. Thanks for hanging in there--I'm out of breath-----Slod

[1Shirt]

Will be interested in the comments from others on this thread. Have never heard of a hangfire "sizzle" before. Have never considered blue dot for 06. My favorite powder for cast in 06 is 2400.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[sloddog]

I used to cast for my handguns. After the first time an ingot "cooked off" the wife got nervous. I told her to calm down. After the second "cook off" --I got nervous-- and stopped. I am reliant on jackets now. Unless I can find a factory made cast rifle boolit to shoot--and then a load as to not lead up the barrel.---Slod

[Bullshop]

Blue dot is not too far behind 2400 in burn rate so should still be in the game.
The problem sounds ignition related to me but why. Are you full length sizing? If yes then there could be something between the two bullet styles. If you are full length sizing you could be introducing slightly excessive head space. At the OAL you are using one of those bullets could be contacting the lands thus partly correcting the HS issue while the other design likely having a slightly different ogive may not be touching thus causing inconsistent ignition. They may still fire after pulling the bullets but there may be enough variation to the fire your getting from them because of what would amount to inconsistent firing pin energy.
No way to be sure at this point but I can say for sure that an inconsistent firing pin strike will GREATLY effect ignition and can most certainly cause hang fires.
There thats one possibility among many

[sloddog]

The rounds in question were neck sized. I orginally took once fired, trimmed to spec, and FL sized and have been neck sizing since. The 50 cases I have been using have 7 loadings on them and have not grown more than .003". All are in good shape yet. I test chambered both the 147's and the 150's and neither chambered or extracted with any issues nor was there any marks on the bullet--don't know if this helps any or not. Thanks---Slod

[jpatm2]

Just curious, and I don't know if this could be it or not, but could the two "sizzle" rounds have been a light primer strike?

[AZ-Stew]

I'd be more willing to suspect that the recoil of the first two rounds caused the powder charge to progressively move forward in the case until on the third shot the powder was so far forward in the case that there just wasn't enough primer power to ignite it properly.

Two solutions. 1.) use a filler to keep the powder over the flash hole. 2.) use a powder that does a better job of filling the case, taking into consideration the velocity you want.

Regards,

Stew

[Bret4207]

Agree with Stew. Another possibility, since you apparently had the same issue with your handguns, is primer contamination. Where and how you store your primers, how you handle them, all that can make a big difference in performance. How old and what kind of primers were they? How had they been stored? Did you handle them individually? It really doesn't take much moisture or sweat or body oils to alter primer performance. You priming method may be a fault too. I had a Lee Auto prime that would leave a semi circle indent on the primer. I got misfires with them.

Having the same issue with a rifle and pistol tend to lead me towards a handling issue.

[mroliver77]

I dont see where he stated that he had the same problem with handguns. Looks as though he had a steam explosion or two! Boy it is weird that you shot HUNDREDS of the fmj with no prob but the soft point fails. I have used blue dot with nary the problem. No ideas are coming to me for your next step. Keep at it and post any tests/results.
Jay

[HORNET]

Solution 3: Try a hotter primer, like a magnum primer. You might be right at the edge for consistent ignition.

[1Shirt]

:coffeecomSome good words of wisdom and thought went into the replies on this. Let me add a couple of my thoughts. First, if you don't have a cy of the current Lyman reloading manual, suggest you get one and read it throughly. Second, the new Lyman Cast manual is due (I hope) out very soon, and I suggest you read that one as well. Don't know how you are priming, but if it is one primer at a time by hand, you could be contaminating some primers with oil/grease on your hand. Suggest a lee primer tool if this might be the case. Lastly for many years, with small charges of fast burning powder, it has been a recommended proceedure to raise the rifle before each shot to settle the powder to the rear of the case. Agree with AZ Stew on his comments. Lastly, you might want to shoot each round as a single and not multi load the rifle. Might also help if you hold the ctg base down before you load. Good luck!
1Shirt!

[Von Gruff]

I believe that Bret and 1 shirt are on the money with primer problem, whether it be light strike or contamination. Blue Dot is not a position sensative powder and I load 17.2gn in my 7x57 with never a problem. Generally from 20% to 50% of case volume is the recomended range for Blue Dot. It does not need a filler over the powder. I have used starting loads of 20% with consistent ignition but went up the volume to get the velocity-accuracy I wanted.



Von Gruff.

[1Shirt]

Von Gruff, Agree with you on the 7x57, but would opt for 375 H&H as more practical, but then one mans trash is anothers treasure.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[sloddog]

Thanks to you all for the responses. To clear some issues 1st--Mr Oliver was right--the cook offs were during melting. I use a lee priming tool and primer go from box to tray to case. These primers in particular are 2008 kept in a cabinet in the basement with all rest of the stuff. These are from a 5000/cs. I opened the case in March this year and am on the 4th-1000 pack. The 1st 3000 were good. I also shoot a 8mm-- 24/47 and use 14 gr of blue dot behind a 185 rem sp. with these same primers. Have shot just shy of 1500 of these out this year and have not had any issues with these. But, the 8X57 is a shorter case. Relevant??? Have also shot AA5744 and IMR4198 out of the 8mm. These worked good to. I do tilt the rifle up when I shoot reduced loads. The first stuck bullet was with a fully loaded rifle, the second time loaded singles. The primers strike appears, to me at least, to be consistant and plenty hard. More than some rifles, less than others. UPDATE--- I could not just let the '03 sit so I went to the club this morning and shot, amongst others, the same load as we are all chatting on--except I put the 147 FMJ's back in. I only made up 10 but these all went bang. I am leeeery to try the 150 sp's again--It is a bear getting the bullets out when then get stuck. -----------Slod

[sloddog]

I forgot to add this---could it be as simple as the bullet?? The 147 has less bearing surface than the 150. Not quite enough oomph to get this bullet out? I originally got this load from an old timer I know, but he shoots strictly cast, but did not think it would matter. Do any of you guys shoot jackets with the reduced powder charges? Does the Lyman manual list reduced loads or wide open loads like the rest? Can I swap a cast bullet with similar weight jacketed bullet in a given load? I know, I know, more ????. I'll be quiet now. Thanks again---Slod

[Bullshop]

This may not be relevant but I once read that primers can be contaminated by storing them in close proximity in a confined area like a cupboard with aerosol spray lubes.

[Bullshop]

I bet its way easier to push a lubed boolit through than a dry bullet. You said they are a bear to get out when stuck. That sounds like enough resistance to burn the powder to me. Did you happen to mic the diameter of the two types?

[Big Boomer]

Sloddog:

Several years back I was having "hangfires" - or so I thought. I read an article by the late Bob Milek in which he explained some things with which I was unfamiliar that changed the way I reload all my rifle rounds. He said that some sizing dies can have the form cutting die run in too far, making it impossible to properly size a case with such a sizing die. Conversely, some can have the sizing die cutter not run in far enough, creating a shortened die. If you run the case all the way in, it will set the shoulder back too far.

I have Lyman .30-06 dies that work just fine ... as long as I only size the neck back as far as it needs to be sized. If I adjust the dies per the instructions, it will set the shoulder back too far. I size those cases and give them a try in the rifle chamber. If they go, they're sized enough.

Don't know whether this might be a factor in your case, though. 'Tuck

[Echo]

My far-out suggestion is for you to check the cases for headspace. Take a fired case and stick a thickness of scotch tape on the base, and try to chamber it. If it chambers, put on another piece of tape and try again. Keep going until it won't chamber. One layer might be OK, but 2 or more (I would think) would be VERY suspect. Maybe the one bullet reduced endplay enough so that ignition was reliable, and the other one didn't.

Ya think?

[Bret4207]

My apologies for misinterpreting what was happening with the lead cook offs. I thought you were referring to more squibs in the pistol.

With that in mind, and since all the other primers seem to work, then I'd say either the powder charge is a bit light for that particular rifle or it's possible there are headspace issues with the dies. I tend to think the former. I have no idea where your load fits in recommended loads, but since you say it's light it's entirely possible it's a little too light. I would look for more info on Blue Dot loads. I know 13.0 Red Dot is good in the '06, but IIRC Blue Dot is quite a bit slower and you may need to up it into the 10.0 gr or more range.

Tuck- Bob Milek knew his stuff, a fine writer. I miss guys of his caliber.

[sloddog]

Primers are stored alone in the drawer--only with other primers. I tried the tape thing but the '03, like the mausers have what I was told is "positive feed" in that if you drop a case into the chamber the bolt will not close up on it. It needs to be pulled out of the mag. I tried several tape jobs and the tape kept getting tore off when the bolt rolled over it. This load is by word of mouth. The guy who told me shot 1000's of rounds in 303, 7x57, 8x57, 7.62x54---all cast though. I believe my methods are sound seeing no other issues at all in the last 40,000 rounds I made. But I assumed cast = jackets. That is where I believe I am making the fatal error. I'm kinda cranked that I did not think this through very well. Glad that it was just a stuck bullet---or 2 in this case. I am content enough to to just except the fact that this load won't be reliable. But on to bigger things--Does this Lyman manual list reduced loads for jackets? If it does--I want one and will order it today. Eventually I will stumble on the the exact why's of my issue but won't loose too much sleep on it. Hell, maybe I will start casting again?!!??? Thanks again for all of the current responses and any more to come. I will definately be visiting here more often.-----------Slod

[Bret4207]

Cast tends to work at much lower pressures than jacketed. While you can usually you jacketed starting loads for cast (they'll be hot), it doesn't really work too well the other way. I'd check some online sources and find a starting load with a fairly fast for the caliber powder and work down. Don't use reduced loads of slow burners until you've got some time under your belt. Bad things can happen.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

My old Speer # 11 manual calls for a reduced load using their 150 gr bullets, using between 20.0 - 24.0gr of SR4759 for a velocity of 1620 - 1957 fps . . .

When you opened the action on the two "sizzles", was all the powder burnt out of the case? Is is possible that they did not get any powder, or only a partial charge?

Yes, cast is different than jacket for load info . . .

[sloddog]

wifes got me painting--winters coming!!!. I think I would rather shovel rocks.

The cases-after the sizzles-were all smoked up. Anythings possible-- they could of been short--I pulled the other 36 I had made up and each had 14 gr in it though. I have seen other data using SR4759--reader opinions on if this is a good powder for what I would need it for I.E. reduced loads with jackets--I have never used this nor the guys that I know that reload. My "mad scientist" side got me into this. I have perfectly good reduced loads for my russian, mauser and '03 using IMR4198 and AA5744 but no, I could not let is sit there-I had to try something different--and as was written earlier--bad things can happen. I am thankful that what happened was just a bother and not worse. I contacted AA and IMR for those loading and they set me up.

[Maven]

"My ?---is blue dot simply not the right choice for a case this size? I started thinking the power point bullet, being the only thing I changed may have caused this but everyone I talked to so far says the bullet should not make a difference."

slodog, Could the problem be something as simple as contaminated primers? contaminated powder? gunk in the bolt sleeve impeding the forward movement of the firing pin? primers seated too deeply? The reason I ask is that I use all of the powders you named in my .30-06 and NEVER had a failure to fire. E.g., I'm currently using 7 grs. Clays and 10 grs. Blue Dot with 140 gr. PB boolits and NO fillers (not necessary). Both are very accurate and 100% reliable. With heavier, gas checked CB's, I use 24 grs. IMR 4198 or 22 grs. 5744 without fillers. Btw, the Power Point bullet, which increases pressure (higher coefficient of friction than a cast bullet), should actually help Blue Dot burn efficiently.

Suggestions: Start with a fresh packet of primers and new .30-06 brass, full length sized to trimmed to 2.48" OAL. If you have a Lyman "M" die, use it. Then charge the [new] cases with the same amount of Blue Dot as before. Finally, seat the Power Point (?) bullets so that they're ~.001" off the lands. I hope this cures your problem!

[sloddog]

I forgot to mention before that I mic'd the 150 PP and the 147 FMJ and they were all .308 on the dot.

I won't exclude anything--and contaminated/faulty components crossed my mind. It falls into the possible but not probably catagory being it never showed up before. Hundreds of this load worked well except with 147gr FMJ Win bullets. Is it the bullets (PP)?? Or just a fluke component failure?? Thus the reason to consult the more experienced crew at cast boolits.

I have always wondered how one figures/sets the bullet to a specific depth off the lands. I have always seated a bullet in a sized case way long and slowly chambered it. If it did not go in I seated it further a little at a time until it did and then measured the case. Unscientific but effective--on a new rifle. Would a bullet seated a little too deep contribute the problem I had? I have never had a reason to actually seat a bullet to a specific depth.

Maven---I do not have a "M" die. I have a RCBS f.l. set and a Lee collet neck sizer. Would f.l. sizing a batch of once fired---trim--measure the bullet depth and load suffice in your opinion? Truthfully I did not tear down the bolt so I embarrassingly enough know not what is or is not in there. I inspected it and it appeared fine. Have you ever had a firing pin on any rilfe borderline where it was fine the great majority of the time but had issues a couple of times? A lite strike with specific a specific charge makes good sense. Would it be a true statement to say a lite strike with one load may work fine but a lite strike with another load could fail? I did release the bolt tension so the pin came out and it looked a little short but the case primers looked fine so I dropped that. Enough for this session-----Thanks again----Slod.

[Maven]

slod, Once fire, FL sized cases shouldn't be a problem; but not having the "M"-die will cause difficulties when seating cast bullets. However, sometimes neck sizing via the Lee collet die will allow you to seat cast bullets without lead shaving or other distortion, even without using the M-die. As for the failure to fire due to grease, etc. preventing the forward motion of the firing pin, I HAVE had it happen on 2 different Remington .22cal. bolt action rifles, but your question begs another question: Is your priming tool fully seating the primers? I ask only because I had too many failures to fire in some of my rifles using a CCI #34 primers, which I thought were the problem. They weren't. It was my Lee hand primer that had worn parts and no longer fully seated my primers. After I replaced those parts, the problem disappeared. Just some food for thought.

[geargnasher]

I'm getting that the 150 grain bullets worked fine, but the 147 grainers gave the pop/fizzles with all else being the same. That makes me think that the powder/primer/case combo was borderline on ignition failures and that something as simple as a different seating depth (i.e. jump to lands) might cause reduced ignition pressures and FTF. My experience with BD has been that if it lights, it doesn't go out (unlike W296), but I've never tried BD in the '06 nor have I tried fillers with jacked bullets.

I would either switch to either make of 4350 and go off published data, or start casting again and use lead for reduced loads and try Unique with a filler.

One more thing, with regard to "position sensitivity", ALL powders are in fact position sensitive, just that some show up more than others. The specific instance of case volume and primer type have more to do with it than just the powder, though. A 10% volume of Red Dot in one case will be much more position sensitive than the same percentage in a smaller case.

Gear

[sloddog]

Geargnasher--You got it just the opposite--the Win 150gr Power Points were the ones that did not work so well. 2 out of the first 6 fizzled and the bullets got stuck. The Win. 147 FMJBT ran well--several hundred worth with the same cases/primers/charge.

Primers are seated below grade. I clean the pockets each reload. But this brings up yet another point in that maybe if the firing pin is borderline worn and the primers are seated a little deep due to the pockets being a little deep this would cause a inconsistant hit which may have been why 4 shot good and the other 2 stuck. I'm reaching but thats all I got.

Out of all the replys--the primers keep coming up a distinct poss. I am going to pull the firing pin and measure it and see what the bolt looks like in side. I am going to also stop with the BD and stick with the lower charges of 4198/5744 until I come up with more.

I have heard varing info, but how fast can a non gas checked cast bullet run before it leads? I would be really interested to see what you guys says.---Slod

[Maven]

"I have heard varing info, but how fast can a non gas checked cast bullet run before it leads? I would be really interested to see what you guys says."---Slod

Slod, A plain based CB can be driven up to ~1,600 fps depending on how smooth your bore is, how much and which bullet lube you use, whether the CB is sized or not, which powder you use, etc.