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Rrusse11
05-16-2005, 12:16 PM
Started foolin' around with some dies and cases last night. I've got a 24" ballard cut 44/40 barrel to go on my Gunbroker special M1894 in 44Mag,,,,,,, buuuut, after the heady ballistics I've been getting with the Casull cartridge in the 452Mag, I';m thinkin' and playin',,,,,,,,,,
~20% increased case capacity over the 44/40.
Could be interesting!
Cheers all,
R*2

Four Fingers of Death
05-17-2005, 07:11 AM
Started foolin' around with some dies and cases last night. I've got a 24" ballard cut 44/40 barrel to go on my Gunbroker special M1894 in 44Mag,,,,,,, buuuut, after the heady ballistics I've been getting with the Casull cartridge in the 452Mag, I';m thinkin' and playin',,,,,,,,,,
~20% increased case capacity over the 44/40.
Could be interesting!
Cheers all,
R*2



Boy, that 44/454 looks good. I need another lever gun like I need a hole in the head. I can't get to shoot the ones I've got now (92s in 357 and 44Mag, 1866 in 44/40, 1894s in 30/30 and 375 Big Bore, 1895 in 45/70 and a Browning BPCR in 45/70. Can't seem to resist these levers.

felix
05-17-2005, 10:39 AM
Would the super mag case be too big for most "pistol" lever guns? Seems that case size would be more than sufficient if it would work OK from the magazines. ... felix

Rrusse11
05-17-2005, 10:42 AM
Boy, that 44/454 looks good. I need another lever gun like I need a hole in the head. I can't get to shoot the ones I've got now (92s in 357 and 44Mag, 1866 in 44/40, 1894s in 30/30 and 375 Big Bore, 1895 in 45/70 and a Browning BPCR in 45/70. Can't seem to resist these levers.

Mick,
I got leveritis purty bad,,,,, but one aspect of specialising in the Marlins is that I'm a learnin' how they work, and I'm accumulating a growing stock of bits and pieces for 'em. Their design and parts have altered very little over the last 120 years.
With the 452Mag variant now feeding the SAAMI Casull spec of 1.765COAL , it opens up quite a wide range of possibilities for the "pistol" cartridges. I know I find the 44Mag loaded up in a handgun quite a handfull, let alone the loads I'm now shooting in the 452Mag, and they are below max. In an M1894 however, no problem! At 2300fps with the 240gr load,, the rifle is speaking with considerable authority however, and for your neck of the woods, I reckin would be an ideal pig gun for them feral hogs.
I got to the 44/454 case by taper crimping a once fired case with a 45ACP die, which is just enuff reduction of the mouth to get it into a 44Mag carbide sizing die. Not quite sure how to measure the angle of the shoulder, but it looks good, {:o). Should get a 44cal boolit well over 2000#'s of ME without too much fuss, and an ez feed into the chamber to boot. I may be able to get my existing 454Casull reamer modified,,,,, or with the case as a sample, see what Dave Manson of www.mansonreamers.com (http://www.mansonreamers.com) can do for me. The 24" oct barrel I got in 44/40 should be a real ez ream job, and it's got a slightly faster twist of 1:36 than the usual Marlin 1:38.
Cheers,
R*2

Dutch4122
05-17-2005, 10:46 AM
I've seen this idea of using the .445 case in a levergun discussed before on other forums. IIRC seems that the general concensus (sp?) was that the .445 case length would probably work in a Winchester '94, but not the Marlin 1894.

Some others argued that you would just end up with a duplicate of the .444 Marlin using more expensive brass anyway, so no real benefit.

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 10:48 AM
Yeah but you would end up with a 444 marlin on a heck of a smaller and lighter rifle.

Joe

Rrusse11
05-17-2005, 10:59 AM
Would the super mag case be too big for most lever guns? Seems that case size would be more than sufficient if it would work OK from the magazines. ... felix

Felix,
Too long at 1.610" for the Marlin 1894. I've thought about cutting it back to the Casull length of 1.381", but then the advantage is marginal. I'm really maxed out with my COAL tweaks to get 1.765". The shorter fatter case I believe is the way to get the most out of the action. It would certainly put a 44cal into a whole nother level of performance..
Still all within cast boolit velocities, and with slighly better BC's and sectional densities on the 44, give IMHO good 150yd capabilities. Not quite up to 444Marlin or 45/70 capabilities, but gettin' near enuff that I doubt the receiving end would know much difference.
Cheers,
R*2

felix
05-17-2005, 11:12 AM
Looks good to me! We need to try your design as is. No need to worry about shoulder angle if the boolit will touch the chamber wall first. Make sure you calculate that with both a winnie and a marlin. Might get a woodworker around there with a lathe and make some wooded cartridges! I will submit some cash, if necessary, for the R&D. What really needs some more powder space is the 41 mag. ... felix

Scrounger
05-17-2005, 11:28 AM
I have really enjoyed watching your developments in this rifle/cartridge. I have long been an advocate of improving the performance in the 1894. I see two problems with your new cartridge. One is that few people will take the time and trouble to tweak the COAL to the length you did. Did you consider just using the .45 Colt case necked down to .44? Second problem is the eternal problem with the Marlin .44- the twist. If you could pick up one of the barrels from a new model .444 (Ballard Rifling, 20 inch twist), cut off an inch or so and rechamber it, should be an improvement. I have no knowledge about the specs of the .480 Ruger case, but do you have any thoughts on necking it down to .44 or .45 for the 1894 rifle. If possible, it should give .454 Casull velocities at lower pressures???

felix
05-17-2005, 11:32 AM
I'd think I'd stay with the magnumized cases, just in case! Also, I would think we'd need a little longer case than the standard pistol size case to take care of the waste generated by the neck taper. ... felix

felix
05-17-2005, 11:35 AM
I think the velocity goal would be 2400 fps with some kind of normal boolit, and that would be the 240-250 grainers in the 44, right? For heavier boolits, then the 444 is more than sufficient. Am I off base here? ... felix

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 11:41 AM
Why not go for the gusto and neck down the 500 S&W?

Joe

Scrounger
05-17-2005, 11:46 AM
StarMetal brings up a good point. In looking up the numbers on the .480 Ruger, I can't see any reason why that round wouldn't work well in an 1894. And I also noted that the .50 A&E case might be a good candidate for necking down. Why? I don't know why, the .44 Magnum as is already gives my shoulder all it wants to handle. Mind games, I guess...

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 11:58 AM
Art

That gusto word use comes from one of my good Tulsa friends. He said that alot "go for the gusto".

Joe

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 12:00 PM
Hey I can see it now. Imagine if this caliber materializes. Your friend comes over and spots the rifle standing in the corner. He says "Hey, nice little pea shooter". You say "Want to shoot it?" He says "Yeah!" Then you watch as it breaks his shoulder and kicks his ***. Then you say "Pea shooter huh?"

Joe

felix
05-17-2005, 12:02 PM
Gotta' watch out for that neck angle! The neck angle appears fine in the picture at top of thread, but it has to be tested throughly anyway. Making ramping mods to the gun as is, is a no-no. That is the most major cause for concern in a lever gun. Besides, we only need enough powder space to make something get to 2400 fps max. ... felix

Scrounger
05-17-2005, 12:07 PM
I think the velocity goal would be 2400 fps with some kind of normal boolit, and that would be the 240-250 grainers in the 44, right? For heavier boolits, then the 444 is more than sufficient. Am I off base here? ... felix

Velocities at that level would already be trespassing on .444 property. I once chronied a 300 gr bullet at 2300 in my .444 but that was too heavy a load, 2100 would be more acceptable. But 250 at 2400 would probably give you a 300gr load at 2100 plus, so it has eliminated the need for the .444 in that case. Only gain I can think of would be higher magazine capacity, and the higher pressures would be rough on the gun as opposed to a more gently loaded .444. This has to fall in the category of things we do just to prove we can do these things... On another tack, the only things we do by making a given bullet go faster is improve trajectory (insignigant in this case) and increase killing range. If that bullet was considered a deer killer at 100 yards at 1700 FPS, increasing the velocity to 2300 FPS now makes it a deer killer at, what, 150 yards??? Nice, but now trajectory is making it more difficult to hit, so ??? As CarpetMan says, it's cheaper than drinking and chasing broads. And it's not illegal. YET.

felix
05-17-2005, 12:10 PM
Good point, Scrounger. How has the Bains and Davis faired in a lever gun? Any info on that 357/44mag? ... felix

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 12:18 PM
From what I read and remember of the 357/44 Bains and Davis, did they put a plastic collor on the neck of the case to in essence to make it a straight wall round so they wouldn't have a cylinder jam-up problems from shooting a bottlenecked cartridge in a revolver? I've never heard of anyone shooting it in a rifle.

Joe

felix
05-17-2005, 12:31 PM
Maybe the 41 should be the emphasis of this design rather than the 44. Getting the 230-240 grainers up to 1800 would be great enough, and on up to 2100 would be fantastic, and on up to 2400 with a 210 would be ideal. However, it has to be a whale of a lot smaller than the 405. ... felix

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 12:37 PM
Felix

Are there any good 41 caliber barrels with the proper rifling twists?

Joe

Scrounger
05-17-2005, 12:40 PM
Good point, Scrounger. How has the Bairns and Davis faired in a lever gun? Any info on that 357/44mag? ... Felix

I never heard of one. Actually, it's not that impressive in a pistol when compared to the standard .357. Is it Boyle's Law we're up against there? Equal pressure generates more force on the larger base area? My original thinking, which R2 took and greatly expanded the scope of, was simply that given the cartridge length limitations of the Marlin 1894 action, and the Saami spec pressure limitation, and loading both rounds to that pressure limit, the .45 Colt could generate more velocity than the .44 Magnum at the same bullet weight. That assumed the cases were equally strong but that hypothesis seems to be in question. Way to go might be to get .454 Casull brass and shorten it to .45 Colt spec, or find the magic to alter the feed length to accommodate the .454 round. (Great job, R2). In this case, the .444 is definitely not needed.

felix
05-17-2005, 01:06 PM
No, Joe, there is not. But that can be fixed by a phone call or two, but maybe 20 calls might be necessary. I can handle that when the time comes. Back in mind would be a 22 twist, 6 lands at 0.0055 or so above a 410 barrel. If we got 10 or more barrels as a group buy I would think the tooling cost would be within reason. We'd should decide up front on a winnie or marlin. Beagle indicated the woods around where he lives has plenty of cheap 30-30's for sale. Would a 30-30 work with minimial mods? ... felix

Rrusse11
05-17-2005, 01:10 PM
Gents,
Wow, never thought my fiddlin' would create quite the interest, {:o)
KEWL!
Felix,
Thanks for the kind offer on R&D, no need, I've got access to a wood lathe, and can run one, its the METAL lathe I need to get turned loose on.
The existing 44/454 as pictured feeds like butter into the Casull chamber. No mods needed to cartridge lifter/ carrier magazine, etc etc. The original 44/40 I believe was designed for ez feed,,,,, and the bottleneck nose finds its way into the chamber much easier than the straight walled cartridges. No problems there.
The COAL modifications are fairly straightforward, and I agree that while a PITA, the case needs the length for the performanc. Now that I've got an example, it really doesn't involve more than a couple hours of carefull work with some small files and wet and dri sandpaper. The Marlins are pretty straightforward to assemble/dissamble, and the design is brilliant in its simplicity and responds well to TLC.
I'm thinking about a 30 degree shoulder angle, should help reduce case stretch, and as long as the initial 'bump' gets the shoulder from hitting the chamber step, the cartridge can headspace on the rim no problem. After fire forming you can neck size with a 44Mag die, and the body can be resized with a 45Colt die if needed.
Long term, with a reamer and rifle chambered, CH4D can do a FL die from fired cases, and Lee will do a collet FCD at a reasonable price with same.
The ballistics on a .430"-240gr I think should be similar to what I'm acheiving with the straight Cassull case, pushing 2300fps,,,, and I must confess some of my initial test loads hit 2400fps,,,,,, bit over the top,,,, but that's what the Chrony said. Turns the 44cal most definitely into a 150yd round, and with better BC's and sectional density than 45cal offerings, should be very handy for the NE here at woods ranges. Well within cast boolit velocity capabilities with GC's.
A 41/454 would be the next step,,,,,,,,, turn the caliber into something usefull, {:o). I'll make up some more cases and see if I can't get a sample cartridge put together.
Gotta' go to work gents,,,,,,,, but I'll be baaaaaack.
Thanks VERY much for all the input,,,,,,, clearly the maxed out pistol cartridge has some potential here. The short action lever delivering big case rifle ballistics has I believe a very real niche.
Cheers,
R*2

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 02:22 PM
Felix

The 94's work for the pistol cartridges as produced by Winchester now. The only difference is the cartridge guide rails, the carrier, and the barrel between those of a 30-30. Personally I feel the Win 94 is a stronger action then the Marlin 94...not talking about the Marlin 336. The Win 94 isn't as big and heavy as a 336, so it's kinda of between a Marlin 94 and Marlin 336. What I"m wondering is how much could a Win 92 be modified to handle a longer cartridge. When I was looking for my 45 LC Ruger old model Blackhawk I almost bought an old model Blackhawk in 41 mag. Wish I would have.

Joe

Scrounger
05-17-2005, 02:29 PM
Dammit, Russell, you got me looking at Pumas in .454 and .480. Big problem is I want BOTH of them... Anybody got comments on the Pumas, especially accuracy?

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 03:08 PM
Here's an idea. Why doesn't Savage come out with a scale down version of the 99 leveraction in pistol rounds?

Joe

Scrounger
05-17-2005, 03:10 PM
Dammit, Russell, you got me looking at Pumas in .454 and .480. Big problem is I want BOTH of them... Anybody got comments on the Pumas, especially accuracy?

Yes, you truly did it. Least you can do is buy one of my toys so I can afford to buy the Pumas. Prices below are shipping paid.

21 inch Contender Barrel, .44 Magnum $210
S&W Combat Masterpiece .38 Spec., 4" $250
1911 .45ACP: Armscor frame, GI slide with target sights, commercial barrel, 1 piece recoil spring guide with buffer, Pachmyer grips, gun reblued $400
CZ52 $150 Ammo $6 a box of 50 Gun is C&R legal
Marlin 444, new model, new unfired. $400
Savage 110E, .30-06, wood stock, economy model, very plain $240
Marlin Camp 9, 9mm, 2 magazines $325
Swiss K31, $150 C&R legal

Scrounger
05-17-2005, 03:19 PM
Here's an idea. Why doesn't Savage come out with a scale down version of the 99 leveraction in pistol rounds?

Joe

A lot of folks would be happy if Savage came out with ANY version of it! But yes, they would sell nicely. If I were the head honcho there and if it were economically feasible to bring it out at all, calibers I would bring out would be: .358 Winchester---.308 Winchester---7/08 Remington---.260 Remington---.250 Savage---and .22-250 Savage. I suppose we'd have to make it available in .223 also.

Dutch4122
05-17-2005, 03:30 PM
Somebody over at the old Marlin forums built a .357 B&D on a Marlin 1894. IIRC he bought a spare .357 bbl from Numerich's or some such and had it reamed out and fitted to a .44 mag 1894 receiver. He said he got .357 Rem Max performance out of the B&D in the little Levergun.

Can't remember his handle at this time. i just remember he was very happy with the performance. I suppose the same could be done with a Winchester '94 if prefered.

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 03:41 PM
Again I say go for the gusto, if you're going to build a hot 357 why not build it as a 35 Remington on a Win 94 action basically by blowing out a 30-30 to 35 cal.

Joe

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 03:43 PM
Which reminds me, didn't Winchester make a big bore on a 358 caliber?

Joe

Dutch4122
05-17-2005, 03:53 PM
Joe-

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the thread at Marlintalk. He was getting low end .35 Remington ballistics and not enough case capacity for the heavier bullets.

Winchester made the .356 on the Big Bore frame. I have one and it's something I'll never part with. Never understood why the Big Bore calibers never sold better. Got one in each, .307/.356/.375 and .444. Love 'em all.

I like your idea of building a ".35-30" as well.

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 04:00 PM
If I'm not mistaking, Russell, when I first met him was toying with I believe a 35 caliber on a blowed out 30-30 case. He'll chime in here when he gets home from work.

One of my favorites was the 375 big bore.

Joe

StarMetal
05-17-2005, 05:04 PM
Here you go Felix, 41/45LC left, 41/44Mag right.

Joe

http://www.hunt101.com/img/286524.JPG

MT Gianni
05-17-2005, 08:21 PM
I have a 92 in 44 Mag and its a shooter. Ugly, with a "Tigre" medallion on the side I bought a lace up pad for trips to the range to moderate the sharp kick in a light gun. Gianni.

longhorn
05-17-2005, 08:30 PM
My personal experience with Pumas is only a sample of 1-a stainless .45LC edition. Only gun I've ever spent more than the original price of the gun in smithing; 3 different smiths, and the thing still wouldn't reliably feed even round nose (small meplat) factory rounds. I couldn't bear to sell it to another CAS competitor, so I gave it to my father and told him to use it for a tomato stake-I think he traded it on some ratty Trapdoor. Maybe a Browning B92 .44Mag instead?

Four Fingers of Death
05-18-2005, 06:49 AM
Probably be better with that white nylon bar stock that you can buy. It would stand up to testing feed and cycle better.

Four Fingers of Death
05-18-2005, 07:17 AM
Joe-

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the thread at Marlintalk. He was getting low end .35 Remington ballistics and not enough case capacity for the heavier bullets.

Winchester made the .356 on the Big Bore frame. I have one and it's something I'll never part with. Never understood why the Big Bore calibers never sold better. Got one in each, .307/.356/.375 and .444. Love 'em all.

I like your idea of building a ".35-30" as well.

I have a 375Big Bore which is fitted with a Lyman steel peep sight. It is truley a lovely and powerful rifle. It will soon see duty in a saddle scabbard in the Victorian Alps hunting Sambar deer (Closest thing Aussies have to Elk). I have met a guy from a town about 120miles up the line at a cowboy shoot. He is a plumber by trade, but a gun dealer part time who specialises in military collectibles and old style arms and replicas. I took up his invitation and he showed me his collection, which he is thinking of getting rid of as he is about to retire and none of his family are interested in guns and he feels that his investent would be wasted if he died as his family do not have any experience or interest in firearms and would get ripped off. I wasn't very interested and was listening politely, when I discovered that he has a brand new XTR 375 Big Bore on his gun rack with the stickers and labels and all. Boy I got interested all of a sudden.

I have always fancied a 307 or 356 Big Bore, but have never seen on on sale here.

I'm not real interested in Marlins, but always fancied a 336 in 35 Remington. Not real effective by comparison to some of the more modern stuff, but has a good feel to it.

The other conversion which is a good 35 is the 35 Lever Power or whatever its called (sorry memory gone, big Chinese feed and a few beers, it doesn't get any better than this). Good performance out of a Winny 94, but a bit of a hassle preparing brass.

I have a Marlin 1895 45/70, but it is a bit thick and clumsy for scabbard work.

Rrusse11
05-18-2005, 08:54 AM
Gents,
Here's a drwg of a 41/454 cartridge. One of the advantages of the Casull case vs the "go the gusto" 500S&W is the rim size. The commonly available 44Mag lever gun has the same rim, no work needed on bolt face or extractor. The body of the cartridge is so close to the 44 OD that there shouldn't be any need to modify the cartridge lifter. I believe one of the keys to making this kind of customization economic is to keep necessary gunsmithing work to a minimum. From my point of view,
I'm becoming increasingly familiar with the Marlin 1894, and believe its simplicity is a real advantage for this kind of project.
The 500S&W would require bolt face mods, and from some discussion with gunsmiths, the amount of barrel left in the breech area with the Marlin is starting to get marginal. one of the reasons I believe the new Marlin 450 has had, for the first time in over a 100yrs, a change in thread style.
As drawn, the 210 Nosler JHP gives a COAL of ~ 1.7", and may not require any modifications to the action to get the length. The newer Marlin 1894's in 44Mag are already set up to take 1.710". Ideally the only thing necessary would be to thread and chamber a barrel and screw it on an existing action. Or take an existing Marlin 41Mag barrel, ream, and screw on a 44Mag action. Keeping it simple is a good thing!
Cheers,
R*2

Rrusse11
05-18-2005, 09:46 AM
For those who've mooted a 35/30, as I fiddled with some time ago. The cartridge is already available,,,,,,,, the 356Winchester. A rimmed 358,, and I have the good fortune to have one of the Marlin 336ER's. The length of the 356 vs the 358 has to be limited to ~ 2.650", that with some mods to the cartridge lifter. I'm acheiving more ME however with the 452Mag variant, here we are with Scrounger's comments on bore diameter and pressures.
My own interest is in taking the short action 'pistol cartridges', and cranking them up, so much has been done with wildcatting rifle cartridges that it's unlikely to come up with anything new, or with something that isn't already available as a standard case.
The 35Rem is a case in point, loaded with modern powders, this "old" round easily achieves and exceeds anything that a 35/30 could do, it's just mostly been ignored. There's some good load info and data over on MarlinOwners.com by a poster who has done a LOT of work with it.
I think the Casull case with it's ready availability, small rifle primer pocket, and length, is the ideal parent for taking the short action lever to new levels of performance. I'm frankly astonished with what I've acheived with a very simple, and cheap, modification to the 45Colt. The latest whiz bang marketing of the 500S&W has obviously sold a lot of guns. The cartridge I'm waiting for however is the 460S&W. This is to be a continuation of the 45Colt theme, only now 1.790" long. This would be the one to put in a 336 action, make good use of all the .452 moulds I'm beginning to acquire.
The other key point that I think is often overlooked in this day of 'magnumitis', is the tendency to shoot heavy for caliber boolits. Scale the weight back to light-mid range and crank the velocity with the smaller cases. Yes you can load 325gr boolits in a 45Colt,,,, but with the mid range weights in eg. the slower twist 44Mag (1:38 in the Marlin), the slower twists give appreciably less friction co-efficients, and lower pressures with no stabilisation problems, with high velocity, wanna' shoot heavy bullets? use a 45/70, of one of the new 1:20twist 444Marlins.. Just my $0.02 worth.
The ballistics from my RCBS.Load program here, shows the Hdy 240gr at 2300fps sighted in at 2" high at 100yds for a zero of 150yds; dropping 5.36" at 200yds and still packing 1061lbs of energy. Leaves the 30/30 for dead IMHO, {:o). Should handle anything on this continent with proper placement.
Cheers,
R*2

felix
05-18-2005, 11:00 AM
Looks real good to me! ... felix

Rrusse11
05-18-2005, 11:40 AM
Felix,
Guessin' here; 2200-2300fps without too much trouble with a 210 gr in a 24" barrel and a case full of Lil Gun. {:o). That shoulder should feed fine, tad of taper on the case body, bingo! The 41Mag lives up to its potential. Certainly a caliber that's long been neglected,,,, hey , Teddy Roosevelt liked it for rhino in his 1895Win in 405Win.
Cheers,
R*2

StarMetal
05-18-2005, 11:58 PM
One of the gun magazines I have has an article on this smith that makes custom Marlin 94's in big calibers. His first good one was the 475 Linebaugh, but the most recent is the 50 AE, boy what performance it gets. If you're interested I'll copy and email any of your the article.

Joe

Rrusse11
05-19-2005, 01:46 AM
One of the gun magazines I have has an article on this smith that makes custom Marlin 94's in big calibers. His first good one was the 475 Linebaugh, but the most recent is the 50 AE, boy what performance it gets. If you're interested I'll copy and email any of your the article.

Joe

Joe,
Yes please!
email atcha' in a PM.
Cheers,
R"*2

Four Fingers of Death
05-19-2005, 05:53 AM
Velocities at that level would already be trespassing on .444 property. I once chronied a 300 gr bullet at 2300 in my .444 but that was too heavy a load, 2100 would be more acceptable. But 250 at 2400 would probably give you a 300gr load at 2100 plus, so it has eliminated the need for the .444 in that case. Only gain I can think of would be higher magazine capacity, and the higher pressures would be rough on the gun as opposed to a more gently loaded .444. This has to fall in the category of things we do just to prove we can do these things... On another tack, the only things we do by making a given bullet go faster is improve trajectory (insignigant in this case) and increase killing range. If that bullet was considered a deer killer at 100 yards at 1700 FPS, increasing the velocity to 2300 FPS now makes it a deer killer at, what, 150 yards??? Nice, but now trajectory is making it more difficult to hit, so ??? As CarpetMan says, it's cheaper than drinking and chasing broads. And it's not illegal. YET.

You can even get the 44 mag percolating in a carbine. I had a 94/44mag in the early 70s, which I learnt to reload on using a Lee Loader (I was such a big dumb *** I used a claw hammer to seat the primers, I was a nervous wreck by the time I had reloaded my box of fifty shells. I went up to my great uncles farm and when we were in town my uncle, who was not much older than me was trying to kill a pig which was playing havoc with the new born lambs. I lent him my 44 and he borrowed a 'turner' (horse-turns good food into sh*t as we aussies say) he rode quitely through the bush where he thought the pig was laid up and he was right on the money, having grown up on the farm. He lined the pig up and as he was about to shoot, he kicked the stirrups off just in case. He had only ever used a 22 off the back of this particular horse (a polo pony). Needless to say, between the unexpected recoil and the startled horse, he was rolled off the horse's behind and landed squarely on his feet as the horse bolted. I would have loved to been there to see it. The pig was out for the count, but he declined to use anything other than the 22 after that. He was cashed up one year and bought a 22 Hornet. It was bought out with great reverence every time there was a serious job to do. They way they handled it you would think it was a 460 Weatherby Mag or something similar.

Mick.

Rrusse11
05-20-2005, 01:14 PM
Felix et al,
Here's a Casull case necked down, fairly straightforward with a two stage approach; 454> 44 > 41, with the carbide pistol dies, no problem at all, and no lube necessary. This is ~ a .300" neck, and the case lengthened to 1.392 from a start of 1.370. Ez cut back to a convenient Casull max of 1.38", or I would suggest a trim length of circa 1.370".
With a group buy approach on the reamer, Dave Manson (www.mansonreamers.com) will do a 'wildcat' with floating pilot bushings for around $200. Well worth it if we got enuff ppl involved. And Dave Mason (www.ch4d.com) I think would do a run of FL dies quite reasonably, that and a Lee Factory Collet Crimp Die,,,,,,. We've already got contacts there I believe. Very feasible, and I'm sure would take the 41Mag caliber to unheard of ballistic potential. {:o).
Cheers all!
R*2

felix
05-20-2005, 01:48 PM
R2, This would be just about perfect. To make it perfect, keep the .300 as the straight part of the neck and its corresponding slope as is, giving a longer neck in reality when including the neck slope, but, instead, maximize the trim length to just barely below its size down, just enough for a round clean up. NO NEED to chop off the case length to match the casull sammi. Keep the sammi casull case taper as is. Lever guns and revolters won't like a sharp shoulder, so leave that angle alone, and make it what you have in the picture. That's good enough. In fact, what would the drawing look like for the bottom of the neck to be placed for a TOTAL .350 neck length, including shoulder? AND, AND, AND I LIKE ROUNDED WEATHERBY ANGLES (I think)! ... felix

Scrounger
05-20-2005, 03:04 PM
R2, don't let me rain on your parade, I really appreciate the work you've done on this effort to expand our knowledge and improve a shooting iron. But. A mass move to that conversion in .41 and/or .44 caliber is a move in the wrong direction. Both those calibers in Marlins are saddled with Microgroove barrels, and in addition, the .44 has that awful 38 inch twist. Why not just sell your .41/.44s and trade or buy a .45 Colt Marlin. Then work your lengthening magic on it and rechamber for the .454 Casull? Whatever velocity you get a .44 bullet of any weight up to, that same weight in a .45 will be faster. A cheaper and easier route. Or am I missing something?

StarMetal
05-20-2005, 03:14 PM
Art

You must have miss the post where Felix talked about having new barrels made up with the correct twist and the right rifling.

Joe

felix
05-20-2005, 03:16 PM
Scrounger, no, you are not missing something really, but just an opportunity for us who don't appreciate recoil, but love flatter trajectories. We want to get up to 2400 with a light boolit, and at least 2100 with a nominal boolit. Heavier boolits need not apply, because with them your logic takes over and wins big time. I figure a 240 grainer flat nose would be an absolute max load, and that should at least make 1800. I would like the 225 grainers as my absolute max, and would shoot 170 condoms just for the grins of it. ... felix

Rrusse11
05-20-2005, 04:15 PM
Scrounger,
I got the 'heavy', I think too there is room for a lighter high velocity alternative, should be a blast with a light for caliber jacketed at 2500fps.

Felix,
Here's a 20 degree shoulder version, prolly more in keeping with what I've actually formed. I think for practical purposes, feeding etc., the smaller angle even if "sharp", would present no problem, or simply give the reamer a touch with a stove on that edge to radius it ever so slightly.
Longer neck of .350", though I'm not familiar with 41Mag boolits. All's I got on hand is the 210Nosler JHP truncated cone, I bought 'the lot' in the bargain bin when the local gunshop re-organised its shelves. Certainly at current length of 1.7" COAL it should require NO mods on the current Marlin 1894's in 44Mag of 45Colt. Plenty of case capacity, {:o).
Cheers gents, could be a plan!
R*2

felix
05-20-2005, 05:50 PM
Good job, R2. BA, can you provide a powder analysis at 33 grains water? I am hoping for something that a crap load of 680 would work in, with boolits: 170, 195, 210, 225, 240? I'd hate to shoot expensive 296 at the river, for example. ... felix

StarMetal
05-20-2005, 06:03 PM
This is getting to sound like Star Wars. Felix says "Good job R2" We'll have to start calling you R2D2, hahahahahahahahaha. All kidding aside you have done good work and maybe this thing can materialize.

Joe

Rrusse11
05-26-2005, 01:29 AM
Gents,
Seein' as how I've got a LOT of 35cal moulds, and how the Bain & Davis is the seminal round that got me innerested in the possibilities of bottlenecks in pistol cartridges,,,,,,, here's the cartridge I might go ahead and order a reamer for.
There was a cartridge called the 38-45ACP, developed I believe by a Mr. Clerke (sp?), and dies are still available, prolly have to anneal the neck of a Casull case to squeeze it down and get the sharp shoulder. I've got a Green Mountain 38Spec 27" octagon barrel with a slow 1:20 twist, should be fine for 180-200gr boolits. As Scrounger points out, the decrease in cross sectional area means more pressure, but a lighter boolit,,,,,. Should have a flat shootin' 357SuperMag. {:o).
Cheers all!
R*2

felix
05-26-2005, 09:56 AM
R2, watch that sharp shoulder! Best to make several rounds on the lathe and do a complete gun cycle check. I was suprised when I did using 413 turned wadcutters to get a throat length in the 41 marlin. The angle from the magazine flipper is paramount, in combination with (in my situation) the fatness of the loaded round. Brass thickness made a large difference towards the tail end of the seated 413 boolit. ... felix

Rrusse11
05-26-2005, 06:52 PM
Felix,
Thanks for the warning,,,,, just got the same advice from my friend Allen, gunsmith at one of the locals here who won't touch any of my harebrain schemes,,,,,,, but has LOTS of good advice and experience to offer. He allowed as if I wanted to put together a 50/110 on a Marlin action I might get him involved, but otherwise,,, he'd rather do scope drill and tap, and straight repairs to customers' guns keep him bz until retirement.
"Failure to feed" can be a BIG problem according to him. I will do some dummies on the woodlathe before I go ahead and buy anything. I'm forgetting that while the cartridge may get a nose in to the chamber, that sharp shoulder step internally may be problematical. That, and as you say, lifter angles et al. have got to be right.
Still, be a helluva' 357! {;o).
Thank you,
Richard

Bass Ackward
05-26-2005, 09:02 PM
Good job, R2. BA, can you provide a powder analysis at 33 grains water? I am hoping for something that a crap load of 680 would work in, with boolits: 170, 195, 210, 225, 240? I'd hate to shoot expensive 296 at the river, for example. ... felix

Felix,

Your guess is right on velocity wise but at 33 grains, you are looking at a 4198 to H322 power house that I would bet would work with anything in that range. You never said where to hold pressure so I did at 45,000 psi. At such, the 240 tops out at 1800 from a 20" tube. But from my study, a 22" barrel get's everything you could want from this and it would be a nice comprimise for sight radius and velocity. A 210 grainer can reach 2200+ if the 22" tube is used, but that is again at 45,000.

Of coarse, less bullet weight would be better if you control the throat length, then you can utilize the lighter weights and a slower twist to cut pressure even more. So you could maybe get a 225 grainer to 2100 with ease. So a working model would have to be put together just to really see what you are looking at. Since it would be custom I would get a smaller pilot on the reamer so you could raise your rifling height a tad and have a real nice concept rifle for cast.

HTHs.

Rrusse11
05-27-2005, 01:13 PM
Felix et al,
I think Gary Reeder has beat us to the punch, he's already the reamer and dies, here's a pic of his offering,,,,,,,, VERY similar.
www.reedercustomguns.com/information/GNR_cartridges.htm
Cheers,
R*2

StarMetal
05-29-2005, 03:15 PM
Okay Russell

You wanted to know what twist my Marlin Cowboy in 45 LC is. Well it's the 38 twist. I saw something where beagle said the 38 twist in his 44 mag wouldn't even put the bullets on the paper at 100 yards. Well my 45 LC Marlin shoots a hell of alot better then that. I'm positive if it wasn't for that giant brass bead they put on the front sight, that my rifle would start to shoot in the bolt action accuracy range. As it was it's shoot little bigger then two inch groups at 100 yards. May put a receiver sight on it and change out that front sight. I was shooting the 255 (which come weighing 260 grs) RCBS SWC over 22 grs of 4227. It was a nice shooting moderately stiff load. I used a kapok filler in it for the purpose of keeping the bore clean and that it did exactly. Nothing in the bore except a coat of lube and of course, some unburned 4227 kernels.

Also I fired some of this through my Win Mod 94 and then I tried both fired cases, that is from the Marlin and from the Win, in my Ruger old model Blackhawk and my older Model 25 Smith. They both fit the Ruger cylinder and they both went in 3/4 the ways in the Smith cylinder. I'm not buying that the chambers are much larger on the 45LC's , at least they don't seem that ways on mine. I don't get a big bulge at the web of the casings.

That's it folks

Joe

carpetman
05-29-2005, 03:39 PM
Starmetal Joe when you ascertained that your 45Lc has a 38 twist,was wondering did you read that or measure it? If you measured it using a brush on a rod,be very careful that the brush is on the rod tight or it might fall off.

Scrounger
05-29-2005, 05:16 PM
Joe, you say the twist in your .45 Cowboy is 1 in 38? I think you need to contact Marlin to let them know they are wrong. They hung it out there on their website for all the world to see, that the twist was 1 in 16. I think you should sue them for false advertising. Did you perchance use the CarpetMan Method to determine the twist? Not to disparage the gentleman, but if he told me the Sun rose in the East... I think we need to measure twist in some other .45 Marlins. Oh, not to prove you wrong, we all know you never make a mistake, it's just to get ready to back you up in court in your lawsuit.

StarMetal
05-29-2005, 07:30 PM
Art,

I think it was from Russell that I got the info about Marlin changed their rifling twist on the Cowboys, that's why he wanted to know what mine was, as I had told him that mine is one of the early ones when they first came out. There's no mistaking the twist as a very tight fitting brush in bore as I was moving the rod in or out, that mark sure was turning very slow. As the barrel is 24 inches long the mark would never get anywhere's making a complete revolution so that would be correct for a 1 in 38 twist. I measured it at 1/2 revelution several times and it kept consistant at 19 inches.


Joe

StarMetal
05-29-2005, 08:38 PM
Not that my Marlin 45LC doesn't shoot good, but I'm quite concerned now as to why mine does have a 1 in 38 twist. It is the Ballard rifling too, which it is suppose to have.

Joe

StarMetal
05-29-2005, 08:43 PM
Art

On the Marlin website on the 45 Cowboy under the specification chart it says:
Specification liable to change without notice. Apparently so if mine is 1 in 38. My gun is the first ones they come out with, with the octagon barrel and the fancy checkering.

Joe

Scrounger
05-29-2005, 09:17 PM
Art

On the Marlin website on the 45 Cowboy under the specification chart it says:
Specification liable to change without notice. Apparently so if mine is 1 in 38. My gun is the first ones they come out with, with the octagon barrel and the fancy checkering.

Joe

Joe, I wasn't disputing your word, just having a little fun with you and the CarpetMan. This isn't the first time we've seen something in the gun world that the books say doesn't exist; strange calibers, finishes, barrel lengths and every other possible variation that are not cataloged turn up with regularity. What really amazes me is that the 1 in 38 twist in the .44 Magnum that shouldn't work actually works quite well...

StarMetal
05-29-2005, 09:26 PM
Art

Yeah I know what you're saying...no big deal the teasing or not, but I got to researching and you're right they are suppose to have a 1 in 16. I checked mine over and over and at first I realized it wasn't making one complete turn in the lenght of the barrel on it, I then targeted for doing a half turn. I did that more then a few times to make sure and the half turn kept coming up 19 inches right on the button. The thing shoots great in fact, one of the more accurate rifles I've seen and it's a leveraction to boot. I'm going to call Marlin on Tues.

Joe

Scrounger
05-29-2005, 09:41 PM
Art

On the Marlin website on the 45 Cowboy under the specification chart it says:
Specification liable to change without notice. Apparently so if mine is 1 in 38. My gun is the first ones they come out with, with the octagon barrel and the fancy checkering.

Joe

I had one of those two years ago, It had a great action job on it by one of the better known Cowboy gunsmiths and I got it at a good price. Then I stupidly turned around and sold it. Been kicking myself ever since and trying to get it back. I have some hopes that might happen real soon. I'm hanging on to my .45 molds, reloading dies, and Starline brass.

Rrusse11
05-29-2005, 10:27 PM
Gents,
Well as near as I can measure mine, using a rod and a tight patch, I come up with 1:30. I wonder if it ain't the "traditional" Colt twist of 1:32. Like Joe's, it ain't doin' a complete revolution in 24", and I'm glad it is NOT the 'new and improved' 1:16. I suspect the faster twist is in response to the cowboy action set shooting low velocity, circa Mach 1, loads. At 1800fps I'm having no problems with a 300gr bullet.
Going by my serial # starting with 99, mine was built in 2001.
Cheers,
R*2

carpetman
05-30-2005, 12:14 AM
Rrussel--when you measured your twist,did you make sure the brush was on tight---might fall off otherwise.

Scrounger
05-30-2005, 12:47 AM
Rrussel--when you measured your twist,did you make sure the brush was on tight---might fall off otherwise.

More to the point, if the brush turns,in either direction, it will give you a false reading, incorrect twist.
I'd better clarify that before someone jumps all over me. I mean the brush loosening or tightening in the cleaning rod. The brush AND rod should turn together following the rifling.

bigboredan
06-01-2005, 11:09 AM
Gents,

save yourself. I've already done the 44/454,358/454,and 375/454. They are listed on ch4d's website as 44DMM,375Dmm and 358DMM. I have some extra dies here with me.

Nrut
06-01-2005, 05:25 PM
Gents,

save yourself. I've already done the 44/454,358/454,and 375/454. They are listed on ch4d's website as 44DMM,375Dmm and 358DMM. I have some extra dies here with me.

Well BBDan I for one would like to hear more ...and I'm wondering if you are going to do one up in .41cal???...that's the one I have the "Hot's" for...Was hoping R2 was going to go ahead with the project so I could have one built also.....There's to many things I don't know to do it on my own....Oh yeah show picture's if you got them.....cheers mic

Rrusse11
06-02-2005, 06:50 AM
Gents,

save yourself. I've already done the 44/454,358/454,and 375/454. They are listed on ch4d's website as 44DMM,375Dmm and 358DMM. I have some extra dies here with me.

Dan,
Cool! What kind of neck length and shoulder angle? I'm certainly interested in the 35/454. Please, tell us more, and a FL die would be perfect for gearing up for a reamer. Got one of those?
Cheers,
R*2

Willbird
06-02-2005, 09:15 AM
Just thinking about this, doesnt a larger bore increase the expansion ratio and make a given ctg. capacity able to do less work with a given barrel length ?? a larger bore enables one to have a greater weight bullet, but it is light for it's CALIBER.

My point is that wouldnt a 30 caliber ctg. that has a 20 grains of water powder capacity be able to produce more muzzle energy at 50,000 PSI in a 20" bbl with a 240 grain bullet than a 44 caliber ctg. of the same capacity ??

Not that 30 caliber is the goal, but the smaller bore necked down versions may in fact make more poop than the 454 version for a given pressure.


Bill

bigboredan
06-02-2005, 03:03 PM
R,

I have the reamer and an extra dieset for the 358/454. The shoulder angle is 20 degrees. right now I'm finishing up with the 375 version.

Dan

Rrusse11
06-02-2005, 06:01 PM
R,

I have the reamer and an extra dieset for the 358/454. The shoulder angle is 20 degrees. right now I'm finishing up with the 375 version.

Dan

Dan!
Well,,,,,,,,, perhaps we can come to some kind of arrangement,,,,,, ?
Finanacial or otherwise,,,,,,,or both,,,,,, {:o).
Just picked up the platform today, got a Marlin 1894 in 44Mag off of Gunbroker. As circumstance would have it, the seller was a very pleasant drive along the banks of the Susquehanna an hour and a half away. Nice clean pre-safety Marlin , hardly shot judging from the tightness of the action.. A stop on the way back at the range,
functions fine, and will respond well to some TLC. Good trigger!
Cheers,
R*2

bigboredan
06-06-2005, 08:24 PM
R,

you can reach me at bigboredan@yahoo.com. I picked up a Rossi Puma in 454 and 2 model 71's this weekend.

Dan

Rrusse11
06-07-2005, 02:23 AM
R,

you can reach me at bigboredan@yahoo.com. I picked up a Rossi Puma in 454 and 2 model 71's this weekend.

Dan

Dan,
Email atcha'! Friday's score for me was a Rossi 45Colt and an original Marlin in 25-20 with a HEAVY round 24" barrel, {:o).
Cheers,
R*2