I want to start muzzle loading my '58 new army

[coopieclan]

Dear SIrs,
I want to start muzzle loading my '58 new army revolver. I have been shooting my Pietta 1858 with a conversion cylinder but I want to learn other parts of the hobby.

I bought the gun and conversion cylinder from Midway USA and it is loads of fun.
I am interested in learning to re-load my own brass.

Whilst reading about cast boolits & re-loading here on the forum, it came to me to first try shooting the gun with BP (muzzle loaded.)

So I read my manual and looked on the internet.
Well I can't tell if in the loading procedure do you put: cap then Powder, Wad, and ball.

Or do you fill all the cylinders then add the caps.

I have caps and the BP cylinder. Do I just need Balls (HA Ha ha) wads and black powder?

I would of course measure the charge!

I would like to avoid fouling the gun can I use BP substitute?

I am prepared to clean the gun afterwards.

[GabbyM]

Powder – Ball - Lube - Cap.

Use three F G black powder if it's handy. (fffg). Most stores have Pyrodex P. The black powder is not dirtier than the replica stuff. Just more dangerous.

Caps go on last. Powder will not leak through the flash hole. Pretty sure you'd eventually have a horrible accident if you caped them first. Patches are optional. Traditional way to load is charge a cylinder seat the ball then repeat . When all chambers are charged smear the cylinders full of lube. Then lastly cap all nipples.

You do;tn' have to use a full charge. The 1858 holds a lot of powder if you fill them. 22 to 26 grains of BP should do it. I think 39 gains is a max charge in those but don't hold me to that. I used to load my 1860 with a max charge of 36 gains and after a few thousand rounds the frame stretched on that open top Colt reproduction. Less powder will burn cleaner too.

You can adjust your powder charge to register your sights to a certain degree.

I mostly used black powder an some Pyrodex. Never had any issues with ignition. But if you do get a hang-fire or misfire. Keep the business end pointed down range for a long while. Then if it doesn't go off cock it to rotate that chamber out from behind the barrel before you continue.

What size balls do you need?

[DIRT Farmer]

There a lot of things you can do to work on improving group size, but first get the basics down. AS above, powder ram the ball and a good dollap of grease (I use Crisco) on the ball. If you use to much the extra will leave at the first shot just make sure to fill the chambers full. Cap ALL loaded chambers very important, and fire. When you have this part of the drill down, there is more to work on to get great groups.

As for the story you will hear about a spare completely loaded cylinder capped and ready to go, yes they did that in combat, and they expected to have some killed and wounded. Loaded cylinders belong in the gun.

[Captain*Kirk]

I shoot 30 gr. Pyrodex P in my 58, with 35 being a Max Load. It's hard to overcharge the Remmy because the ball will not seat deep enough to allow the cylinder to rotate! I found my best accuracy using 25-27 gr. Pyrodex P, but you will have to experiment to find what your gun likes. #11 caps will likely fall off the nipples....the RWS/Dynamit-Nobel 10-3/4 caps fit nicely without pinching and don't fall off or jam the cylinder. FYI; Pyrodex P is roughly equivalent to FFF black powder, if you so choose to shoot the real thing.
Shooting 35 gr for me simply increases noise and recoil and throws accuracy out the window.
I would suggest a .454 ball for starters. If they seat too hard, move down to the .451 RB. I find cast conical bullets shoot as well or better than the round ball in my Remmy, but not some of my other pistols....your mileage may vary!
I have used Crisco with much success, other than the fact that it can get messy. Carry a good supply of rags. Good luck!

[Bull Schmitt]

Check this website for a lot of info on Remington Revolvers:

http://www.scorrs.org

[coopieclan]

Gentlemen,
Thanks for the info... 25 gr pyrodex I can do... wonder wads and Bacon Fat YUMMY

My manual says .454 balls

I would not play at carrying around loaded cylinders... I plan to mostly shoot cartridges still but I want to learn the original real deal.

I am real cautious ... when I first got my remmy & conversion cylinder I shot blanks to test the action of the gun.

I will try the muzzle loading one shot at a time for starters... never filling the 6th chamber.

I am not looking forward to washing the gun.

[DIRT Farmer]

I can honestly say there is no differance between "properly" cleaning a M/L or a modern gun if it is done right. I have spent a lot of time cleaning crud out of modern guns that did not shoot right.

[cwskirmisher]

If you are only going to punch paper, then use 15-18 grains of 3F. I shoot these in competition and at 25 yards this load is very accurate. An 18 grain charge will shoot to the sights at 25 yards (or pretty close), and is an easy pleasant to shoot load. You may of course load to the max allowable charge, but that is overkill, tough on the gun (and your hand) and not needed for best accuracy.

1. load all cylinders with powder charge.
2. Fill remaining space in cylinders with cream of wheat - right to the top. The theory here is that the smaller the jump to the forcing cone the better the accuracy.
3. place .457 (pure lead or store bought swaged) ball on top and seat to just below cylinder top to allow cylinder to freely rotate. The COW will compress nicely. The groove diameter on most of these revolvers is .451. Cylinders are sometimes cut too small ruining accuracy - but if you can shave a very small sliver of a .454 while seating, you are good to go - if not, use a .457. Most competition shooters are using .457 with cylinders that are reamed to .456. Do not use a .451 - it is too small, will likely fit too loosely in the cylinder and may back out jamming the cylinder, and is not going to fill the grooves of the barrel adequately. If you load a .451 and it shaves lead in the cylinder upon loading, the cylinders are too small and need to be reamed. Shooting an undersized ball is what I like to compare to just like bowling... throw the ball down the center (you hope) and hope for the best. A too small ball will gas cut and leave leading the barrel, and the goups will be non-existant. If you cast your own, place the sprue facing up when loading.
4. cover ball of each cylinder with 50/50 beeswax/crisco mix. Alternately, you can use bore-butter or other similar black powder lube formula. I stay away from straight crisco- after the first shot it is all gone from the remaining cylinders.
5. Cap all cylinders. ALWAYS do this LAST and with the revolver pointed downrange. Keep your fingers out from in front of the cylinders.
6. Have fun.
7. Clean the revolver with hot soapy water, let dry then liberally oil up.

Note: Do not use patches of any kind with a cap&ball revolver. The patch will not likely pass the forcing cone and may set up a burst barrel in the following shot. You do not need any patching, period. This is not a muzzleloading gun - it is loaded at the cylinder mouth.

[jlchucker]

Stop and think about the loading sequence. Up until the time you put the cap on, there's close to a zero chance of an accidental discharge. Load the chambers first, put some lube over the balls or bullets, then cap as the last step in your process. Once that cap is on, that gun is ready to fire. You don't want it firing while you're loading chambers--believe me! In 44 cal repros, over the years I've come to use only one size ball--the .454. If your chamber is a little tighter than that, then you'll just skim off excess lead when you're seating the ball. If the ball's to small though, you'll have a loose fit and you won't want that. I understand that Rugers have a larger chamber and require .457 balls. I have no experience with Rugers, but if I acquired one, I'd buy a box of that size to try first.

[coopieclan]

I did it!

My Pietta PLUS...

Horandy .454 balls, wonder wads, #10 Caps, Bacon-fat + bee's-wax and 25 gr Pyrodex.
No mis fires... Happy Shooting.

Thanks for the lesson in the order of loading a BP revolver.

After 5 rounds the other guys at the range all had something to say about the smoke. HA Ha ha.

I have a slight problem with the latch on my loading lever...I shoot and the lever drops. I wonder if I need a new spring on the loading lever latch.

I have washed the gun with "Damn Good" cleaner and gun oil.

This is an awesome part of the shooting hobby (to know I am shooting 1858 style)

I'll send a target when I fix my aim.

Coopieclan

[cwskirmisher]

I have a slight problem with the latch on my loading lever...I shoot and the lever drops. I wonder if I need a new spring on the loading lever latch.

Coopieclan

Good job! Welcome to the world of the holy black. The loading lever dropping is not uncommon. Recoil induced. It may be that the latch is not seating completely into its 'home', or that the home attachment point it too far away from the latch. Or, it could be you just have some dirt in there prohibiting it from seating completely.

A nuisance, but not unsafe - just be very careful when you reach up forward of the cylinder to latch it when you have loaded rounds remaining!

Fun fun fun!

[freedom475]

You know I think you should really examine the loading latch and catch contact points... The lever should not be dropping down on your 58... It may be just a simple touch-up with a triangle file to fix your problem. Or maybe your latch spring is just sticking a little. Especially if you were shooting conversions out of it without a problem??

I have had lots of these and the only one that ever fell down with me was the Walker( these almost all drop until they are worked on)

[coopieclan]

It dropped down for cartridge use also. I have to do something.
I am open to more suggestions.

If it was easy everyone would do it.

[coopieclan]

I shot my 1858 Remmy for the 2nd time today (with Black Powder)
It is an excellent experience... The loading is fun, I made myself a loading stand.
25 gr. of Pyrodex fffg seems much more manageable than using cartridges in the R&D conversion cylinder.

For comparison... When I shoot the cartridge ammo (which was not labeled "cowboy action") the recoil feels like someone hitting the gun with a baseball bat. When I shoot 25 grains of black powder substitute it feels like someone is pushing the gun with two fingers.

I could see myself shooting the cap & ball load with one hand.

When I use the conversion cylinder I put a rubber "O" ring around the barrel and loading lever. This seems to prevent the lever from dropping from the big recoil.
This is not a kosher fix. It is not "stock"

Black Powder Cap & Ball is the way to go...It will save me money too.

It feels like high octane gas in an old Caddy.

I guess once you go black...

Ya know.

[coopieclan]

If you are only going to punch paper, then use 15-18 grains of 3F. I shoot these in competition and at 25 yards this load is very accurate. An 18 grain charge will shoot to the sights at 25 yards (or pretty close), and is an easy pleasant to shoot load. You may of course load to the max allowable charge, but that is overkill, tough on the gun (and your hand) and not needed for best accuracy.

1. load all cylinders with powder charge.
2. Fill remaining space in cylinders with cream of wheat - right to the top. The theory here is that the smaller the jump to the forcing cone the better the accuracy.
3. place .457 (pure lead or store bought swaged) ball on top and seat to just below cylinder top to allow cylinder to freely rotate. The COW will compress nicely. The groove diameter on most of these revolvers is .451. Cylinders are sometimes cut too small ruining accuracy - but if you can shave a very small sliver of a .454 while seating, you are good to go - if not, use a .457. Most competition shooters are using .457 with cylinders that are reamed to .456. Do not use a .451 - it is too small, will likely fit too loosely in the cylinder and may back out jamming the cylinder, and is not going to fill the grooves of the barrel adequately. If you load a .451 and it shaves lead in the cylinder upon loading, the cylinders are too small and need to be reamed. Shooting an undersized ball is what I like to compare to just like bowling... throw the ball down the center (you hope) and hope for the best. A too small ball will gas cut and leave leading the barrel, and the goups will be non-existant. If you cast your own, place the sprue facing up when loading.
4. cover ball of each cylinder with 50/50 beeswax/crisco mix. Alternately, you can use bore-butter or other similar black powder lube formula. I stay away from straight crisco- after the first shot it is all gone from the remaining cylinders.
5. Cap all cylinders. ALWAYS do this LAST and with the revolver pointed downrange. Keep your fingers out from in front of the cylinders.
6. Have fun.
7. Clean the revolver with hot soapy water, let dry then liberally oil up.

Note: Do not use patches of any kind with a cap&ball revolver. The patch will not likely pass the forcing cone and may set up a burst barrel in the following shot. You do not need any patching, period. This is not a muzzleloading gun - it is loaded at the cylinder mouth.

I went to the grocery store for some shootin' supplies.
I am going to try the Cream of Wheat technique to bring my balls to the front of the cylinder.

My 1858 black powder groupings have been much larger than the cartridge shots
I want to eliminate the "Ball Jump"variable

As for the lube I don't think the wax I have been using is correct.
I will try Crisco for now (it is cold in February)
I have bore butter on order.

[wellfedirishman]

Coopieclan, the Bore Butter is fine in warm weather, but in winter it is hard as a rock. If you are going to use it, put it in an inside pocket to keep it warm and relatively soft.

Welcome to C&B shooting, it is addictive, and cheap too. As long as you don't factor in the cost of all the new C&B guns you end up buying :)

[Alan]

And for the last 2 years, you could say "Ammo shortage? What ammo shortage?" 8)

[coopieclan]

I like buying groceries for the gun.
If I could use coffee and eggs I could have breakfast.

[NickSS]

Instead of COW you could use grits or corn meal for the same purpose and get different smells to add to your breakfast.

[Geraldo]

Coopieclan, the Bore Butter is fine in warm weather, but in winter it is hard as a rock. If you are going to use it, put it in an inside pocket to keep it warm and relatively soft.

Welcome to C&B shooting, it is addictive, and cheap too. As long as you don't factor in the cost of all the new C&B guns you end up buying :)

In really warm weather, Bore Butter turns to liquid. I use Crisco, or Crisco/beeswax.

+1 on C&B shooting. You don't have to buy brass or dies, and I find BP cleanup to actually be easier than a thorough cleaning of modern guns.

The most dangerous thing is reading other people's range reports and threads. If you do that, you'll find that you need a large number of revolvers. Even this thread, innocent as it is, has reminded me that I don't yet have a Remington, or a .36, or...

Enjoy BP shooting!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnVT/Guns/IMG_0436.jpg


:mrgreen: